Questions About Upgrading a Polk PSW350 to an SVS PB-1000

[John Lohmann]

Agreed, I'd recommend going with RSL 12S or HSU VTF-2 Mk2 over SVS PB1000pro for the same money.
all 3 are excellent subs, but RSL and HSU give more bass per $ or better value.

Thanks, I'll look into them.

 

[TLS Guy]

It's interesting that you say the sub is the least important in the room when most say it's the thing to upgrade first instead of amps/receivers; unless you're referring to two-channel applications, I'd say the sub and center are the vital components of a HT setup. Most people recommend upgrading to a good sub or two before looking at amplification, as the subs usually make the system appear more powerful (again, with HT).

I can tell you what I notice, is that people tend to run their subs hot. I honestly think this is an attempt to mask upper bass and mid range where most speakers lack adequate power. Speakers are measured under comparatively low power conditions. Dynamic compression is prevalent in speakers. That is very hard to get a handle on most measuring techniques.

I agree about center speakers and few are good. In many ways the center is the most important speaker. However, because of location everything is against them.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Jesus Christ....$800 is now being considered "entry level?" Probably shouldn't have shocked me given the fact that we had to buy a Denon that was over $1000 and still got plastic knobs and faceplate...

I'll consider the HSU and RSL as well; thanks. I was considering the SVS because a friend suggested it (he had installed one in his system and informed me about it via text).

Well actually 3-500 is probably the actual barrier to entry level. But taking money out of the equation, the pb1k’s performance, while very good(and better than the Polk) is in the shallow end of the pool. IMO, in the long run, you’ll very likely end up looking for more.
Svs does build quality subwoofers, and have exemplary customer service. But the quantity and quality of bass per dollar is just higher with other companies nowadays. The app is nice. But I’m a set and forget kind, and use other means of eq, so it’s useless to me. Ironically, svs used to be the leader imo. But the bill of rights, and all the “free” shipping and amps they ship back and forth just doesn’t justify the premium. IMO.
And as far as power goes. It’s a little bit moot. The sensitivity of the whole subwoofer system(driver, enclosure, tuning etc) has to be taken into account.

 

[TLS Guy]

You're saying the 350 watts RMS rating of the PB-1000 isn't vital to consider? Wouldn't this not "punch that much harder" than the unit I have now at 100 watts?

The make and model of the stereo receiver is an Onkyo TX-8555. It has a sub preout but no internal bass management.

If you increase from 350 watts to 700 watts with the same driver, then you only increase output 3 db. If you have two subs, and one sub is 3 db more sensitive than the 700 watt sub, they will both have the same output.

As usual though there is a catch to this as higher sensitivity tends to be associated with higher F3 and less deep bass. In speaker design there is always a 'gotcha'.

If you are handy with a workshop or useable garage you can build a sub, and I have a design for a good 12" sub ready to go.

 

[John Lohmann]

Well actually 3-500 is probably the actual barrier to entry level. But taking money out of the equation, the pb1k’s performance, while very good(and better than the Polk) is in the shallow end of the pool. IMO, in the long run, you’ll very likely end up looking for more.
Svs does build quality subwoofers, and have exemplary customer service. But the quantity and quality of bass per dollar is just higher with other companies nowadays. The app is nice. But I’m a set and forget kind, and use other means of eq, so it’s useless to me. Ironically, svs used to be the leader imo. But the bill of rights, and all the “free” shipping and amps they ship back and forth just doesn’t justify the premium. IMO.
And as far as power goes. It’s a little bit moot. The sensitivity of the whole subwoofer system(driver, enclosure, tuning etc) has to be taken into account.

Yes, I am a set-and-forget person, as well; I have no intention of using any apps (we don't them for any other form of electronics). I probably wouldn't even use the supplied remote for bass adjustments.

I'll take what you said about the SVS and other brands into consideration. Thanks.

I wanted to look past the mere 100 watts we're getting out of the Polk for some more pressurization qualities in a bigger, better sub; it really takes a LOT of pushing to make the Polk shake any walls. I wanted something with more watts.

 

[John Lohmann]

If you increase from 350 watts to 700 watts with the same driver, then you only increase output 3 db. If you have two subs, and one sub is 3 db more sensitive than the 700 watt sub, they will both have the same output.

As usual though there is a catch to this as higher sensitivity tends to be associated with higher F3 and less deep bass. In speaker design there is always a 'gotcha'.

If you are handy with a workshop or useable garage you can build a sub, and I have a design for a good 12" sub ready to go.

I'm definitely not a build-your-own-sub kinda lad, but I appreciate it.

So what kind of power increase should I be looking at if I wanted something that will truly make a difference compared to what we're hearing now with the 100-watt PSW350? Much more than 350 watts RMS from a plate amp?

 

[j_garcia]

Jesus Christ....$800 is now being considered "entry level?" Probably shouldn't have shocked me given the fact that we had to buy a Denon that was over $1000 and still got plastic knobs and faceplate...

I'll consider the HSU and RSL as well; thanks. I was considering the SVS because a friend suggested it (he had installed one in his system and informed me about it via text).

Unfortunately a $700 sub today is yesterday's $500 sub, but now I think you get more for that money and at least have some good choices. The review of the RSL here on AH is impressive for sure.

When I had to replace my Preamp, today's prices were certainly a shock to me as well. My former pre died twice so I decided to go back to Marantz, but that cost a pretty penny.

Amp RMS power isn't the best measure of the capability of a sub, but a very low power rating does tell you something about the design and how they achieved their price point.

 

[John Lohmann]

Unfortunately a $700 sub today is yesterday's $500 sub, but now I think you get more for that money and at least have some good choices. The review of the RSL here on AH is impressive for sure.

I get that; it's just a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't really want to spend in excess of $1200, as I don't think our system warrants it, but it looks like I might have to in order to leapfrog the performance of our current Polk.

 

[Hobbit]

I am planning on replacing my old Polk PSW350 with an SVS sub, most likely the PB-1000, and have a couple of questions before I do so, the second of which will touch on moving the Polk to our separate two-channel system...

First -- is the move from the PSW350 (100 watt output) to the PB-1000 going to be noticeable in terms of output and tactile bass response? This sub will be running alongside Polk RTi12 mains in a 5.1 setup, with the RTis crossed over at 60Hz so they can "flex their muscles" a bit as big floor-standing towers, but will the move to the SVS be worth it? If not, which SVS would be recommended to move up to....something in a higher series, perhaps the 2000 or 3000? The listening space is a typical living room without vaulted ceilings, with a 12-foot distance between the front stage and the main seating position.

Secondly -- I'd like to repurpose the Polk for our upstairs two-channel system, as that setup has an Onkyo two-channel stereo receiver powering it which boasts a dedicated sub preout. However, because this is a two-channel model, there is no bass management on the Onkyo...so how would I get the PSW350 dialed in here? There is a sub preout on the receiver, as I said, so how would dialing the crossover in work in this scenario? I was under the impression that once something is physically connected to the preout jack of a powered sub, its internal crossover is immediately bypassed -- so how would I dial in the bass outside of the volume knob of the Polk? Is it just a plug-and-play situation, simply working in conjunction with the main speakers (in this case a pair of Infinity Primus 363 towers)?

IMO, I would go with 2 PB 1k's over a single 2k. Or two 2k's if you can swing it. How are you going to set it/them up? With an AVR built in audio correction like Audyssey? What AVR are you using?

Like others mentioned, many people overcook the subs and it sounds bad to me. When listening to music I don't' want to know they're there. I want them to blend in seamlessly with my other speakers. Keep in mind, some music, particularly older music, doesn't have much bass. I tend to give them a little 3-6db bump for movies.

I have a similar setup in bedroom system. There's no bass management for my setup. I ran the receiver speaker output to the sub to use the sub for the bass management. I started off with setting the crossover/low pass on the back of the sub to approximately a little higher than lower freq response of my speakers, ~100hz should be good starting point. Then started with the volume relatively low and slowly moved it up. Like above, I tried to make the sound from the subwoofer as seamless as possible. It's an iterative process, but didn't take too long.

 

[John Lohmann]

IMO, I would go with 2 PB 1k's over a single 2k. Or two 2k's if you can swing it. How are you going to set it/them up? With an AVR built in audio correction like Audyssey? What AVR are you using?

Thanks very much for your reply.

We can't really swing two subs in this setup, so I need to decide on a 1000 or 2000 (or one of the others being suggested). It will be set up in the same front-of-room corner our old Polk 350 is set up in now, connected via RCA to a new Denon AVR-X2800 through the receiver's sub preout, alongside Polk RTi12 towers crossed over at 60Hz (the remainder of the 5.1 layout is crossed over at 80). No Audyssey or room correction/EQ applied.

Like others mentioned, many people overcook the subs and it sounds bad to me. When listening to music I don't' want to know they're there. I want them to blend in seamlessly with my other speakers. Keep in mind, some music, particularly older music, doesn't have much bass. I tend to give them a little 3-6db bump for movies.

I have a similar setup in bedroom system. There's no bass management for my setup. I ran the receiver speaker output to the sub to use the sub for the bass management. I started off with setting the crossover/low pass on the back of the sub to approximately a little higher than lower freq response of my speakers, ~100hz should be good starting point. Then started with the volume relatively low and slowly moved it up. Like above, I tried to make the sound from the subwoofer as seamless as possible. It's an iterative process, but didn't take too long.

I get all that; I will be able to dial in the sub just so using the AVR's dB trim and the sub's own volume in the back. My concern was whether one of these SVS models were going to be a significant upgrade -- output and slam wise -- compared to the old Polk.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm definitely not a build-your-own-sub kinda lad, but I appreciate it.

So what kind of power increase should I be looking at if I wanted something that will truly make a difference compared to what we're hearing now with the 100-watt PSW350? Much more than 350 watts RMS from a plate amp?

I would say that you need a 6db increase minimum to justify the expense of more power.

So, if you have 100 watts now, then you need at least 600 watts given the sensitivities of the drivers being the same. That is an unknown though as driver sensitivities are not known in commercial subs as a rule. That makes it impossible to answer your question precisely. So to give a margin and estimate for 750 watts to do what you want is not unreasonable. So you need to get it out of your thinking that doubling power makes it twice as loud as it won't, because the db. scale is a log scale.

What I would say though is that if you can spring for 2 subs, there are advantages to that. It helps with room modes, and you increase spl. without likely increasing distortion. So all things being equal, which they usually are not, then two 350 watt subs does have some advantages over a 750 watts sub. Now I should mention that this assumes you are staying with ported subs. Sealed subs loose efficiency in the deeper bass, as they roll off 12 db. per octave below F3, and so need a 12 db per octave boost below F3 which takes a lot of power.

 

[John Lohmann]

I would say that you need a 6db increase minimum to justify the expense of more power.

So, if you have 100 watts now, then you need at least 600 watts given the sensitivities of the drivers being the same. That is an unknown though as driver sensitivities are not known in commercial subs as a rule. That makes it impossible to answer your question precisely. So to give a margin and estimate for 750 watts to do what you want is not unreasonable. So you need to get it out of your thinking that doubling power makes it twice as loud as it won't, because the db. scale is a log scale.

What I would say though is that if you can spring for 2 subs, there are advantages to that. It helps with room modes, and you increase spl. without likely increasing distortion. So all things being equal, which they usually are not, then two 350 watt subs does have some advantages over a 750 watts sub. Now I should mention that this assumes you are staying with ported subs. Sealed subs loose efficiency in the deeper bass, as they roll off 12 db. per octave below F3, and so need a 12 db per octave boost below F3 which takes a lot of power.

Oh, I totally understand that doubling the wattage wouldn't make it twice as loud -- same thing with amps and AVRs. I just wanted an idea of what I should be looking at in terms of an appreciable, quasi-realized punch/slam increase. Which subs put out about 600 watts RMS on the market now? Can you give me an idea?

 

[lovinthehd]

You're saying the 350 watts RMS rating of the PB-1000 isn't vital to consider? Wouldn't this not "punch that much harder" than the unit I have now at 100 watts?

The make and model of the stereo receiver is an Onkyo TX-8555. It has a sub preout but no internal bass management.

You would need to know the sensitivity of each sub to compare amp power, as a doubling of power with subs of same sensitivity would yield only a 3dB advantage. You generally won't get the sensitivity spec to make that comparison, tho. Generally I would look at sub testing/measurement for good info on actual sub performance and output capabilities. The SVS I would think is more capable in any case.

Agree after looking at the Onkyo manual looks to be just a sub preout without mention of any associated low or high pass filters.

 

[TLS Guy]

Oh, I totally understand that doubling the wattage wouldn't make it twice as loud -- same thing with amps and AVRs. I just wanted an idea of what I should be looking at in terms of an appreciable, quasi-realized punch/slam increase. Which subs put out about 600 watts RMS on the market now? Can you give me an idea?

Punch and slam are not assured by loudness. They have just as much to do with overall design and what is known as the Qt of the design. Lower Q designs have greater punch/slam. Unfortunately commercial subs tend to play the my sub has a lower f3 then your sub game because of marketers. So this tends to push the design for boom rather than punch.

I am a 100% DIY guy with my own designs. Actually in my AV room I don't actually use subs as such but have totally integrated speaker designs with the fronts being totally integrated full range speakers. They have punch and slam aplenty.

I did do an installation for some friends using a couple of 12" HSU subs, which I judged as adequate. Let's put it that way.

 

[John Lohmann]

You would need to know the sensitivity of each sub to compare amp power, as a doubling of power with subs of same sensitivity would yield only a 3dB advantage. You generally won't get the sensitivity spec to make that comparison, tho. Generally I would look at sub testing/measurement for good info on actual sub performance and output capabilities. The SVS I would think is more capable in any case.

Thanks.

I understand that doubling the rated power output would yield a somewhat unappreciable result -- hence why I'm inquiring about what subs WOULD make a difference. Seems 600 or so watts RMS is the increase we'd need (taking sensitivity out of the equation).

Agree after looking at the Onkyo manual looks to be just a sub preout without mention of any associated low or high pass filters.

Yes -- which is why I'm confused as how this would work if I move the Polk to the two-channel system. Do I just plug it in and allow it to run alongside the Infinity towers without any kind of crossover adjustment, instead just dialing in the volume with the knob?

 

[John Lohmann]

Punch and slam are not assured by loudness. They have just as much to do with overall design and what is known as the Qt of the design. Lower Q designs have greater punch/slam. Unfortunately commercial subs tend to play the my sub has a lower f3 then your sub game because of marketers. So this tends to push the design for boom rather than punch.

I am a 100% DIY guy with my own designs. Actually in my AV room I don't actually use subs as such but have totally integrated speaker designs with the fronts being totally integrated full range speakers. They have punch and slam aplenty.

I did do an installation for some friends using a couple of 12" HSU subs, which I judged as adequate. Let's put it that way.

Okay, so what would be recommended as far as an appreciable improvement over our current Polk?

Here's an e-document of the sub's manual so someone more experienced than me can look at specifications; hope it works:

PSW350 Owner's Manual - Polk Audio (yumpu.com)

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks.

I understand that doubling the rated power output would yield a somewhat unappreciable result -- hence why I'm inquiring about what subs WOULD make a difference. Seems 600 or so watts RMS is the increase we'd need (taking sensitivity out of the equation).



Yes -- which is why I'm confused as how this would work if I move the Polk to the two-channel system. Do I just plug it in and allow it to run alongside the Infinity towers without any kind of crossover adjustment, instead just dialing in the volume with the knob?

Capable subs generally will have more powerful amps, 100w is very much on the low side in sub world. Costs more, too thus even good entry level subs are somewhat pricier. That logarithmic relationship does tend to chew up amp power quickly, depends on the sub design to an extent. A sealed sub will generally need some extra power to make up for a somewhat less efficient design (often via eq, which costs some power) vs a vented/ported design. Picking an arbitrary number like 600 may work well enough.

Does the Polk have a low pass filter (it may be labeled crossover)?

 

[Hobbit]

Thanks.

I understand that doubling the rated power output would yield a somewhat unappreciable result -- hence why I'm inquiring about what subs WOULD make a difference. Seems 600 or so watts RMS is the increase we'd need (taking sensitivity out of the equation).



Yes -- which is why I'm confused as how this would work if I move the Polk to the two-channel system. Do I just plug it in and allow it to run alongside the Infinity towers without any kind of crossover adjustment, instead just dialing in the volume with the knob?

That's why I recommended using the sub as the bass management. The Polk sub has a crossover. It will pass everything above that to the main speakers. This is accomplished by using the speaker connections on the back of the Polk sub. Run the speaker output (not sub output on your reciever. the speaker wires) to the Polk. Run speaker wire from the sub to the main speakers. That's why they're there.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's why I recommended using the sub as the bass management. The Polk sub has a crossover. It will pass everything above that to the main speakers. This is accomplished by using the speaker connections on the back of the Polk sub. Run the speaker output (not sub output on your reciever. the speaker wires) to the Polk. Run speaker wire from the sub to the main speakers. That's why they're there.

You sure it can provide a high pass for the speakers? I'd read such a question and the answer indicated only low pass for the sub that way but haven't looked at the sub's manual....

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay, so what would be recommended as far as an appreciable improvement over our current Polk?

Here's an e-document of the sub's manual so someone more experienced than me can look at specifications; hope it works:

PSW350 Owner's Manual - Polk Audio (yumpu.com)

Just about any of the major sub brands like HSU or SVS, REL and so on.

I am not really the best to answer that question as I could not put up with any of them most likely.

I use low Q transmission line speakers, and yes, they have deep bass and slam, but there is no commercial equivalent. They are powerful highly efficient low Q designs. The problem is they are huge and not really commercially viable, at least not at a realistic price. When I hear commercial subs, I am just glad I don't have to buy them.

Each of those speakers weighs 350 lb.