We review the $9,600 Legacy Audio Focus SE Speakers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can certainly put the amps and crossovers outside the speaker. However that makes for a lot more clutter and more cables going to the speaker, and increased possibility of wrong connections.

The amps are not more reliable because they are inside the speaker, but because they are directly connected to the speakers and will not be stressed by the difficult loads of inductors and caps between amp and speaker, especially in the low pass crossover. After forty years or so with active experience, I can attest to the fact that is a most definite benefit.

So you have Quad amps all inside each of your speakers?

I don't mind ACTIVE speaker systems. But let everyone decide how they want it - whether to put the amps inside the speakers/subs or externally.

 

[highfigh]

I applaud your desire for standardization and the ability to plug and play just like we have done for years with computers. But every manufacturer seems to have the desire to make their stuff all proprietary and when you can convince the manufacturers to stop doing that the serviceability of modern powered speakers will be made simple enough you wont need a EE degree or at the very least an AAS in electronics to service your own speakers. When do you think that is going to happen?

But there is one other aspect of this NO ONE has addressed. What do you do when you want to upgrade? More power? Gotta buy new speakers, right? Cant just replace those amp modules because they have to physically fit as well as be electrically compatible. How much discretionary money do you have for this hobby? I dont have enough to make that kind of upgrade...my upgrades are gradual and not that often. Usually when a piece of equipment dies, it gets replaced by something allegedly better( thank you China ). Often the upgrade just isnt. The old way, largely, was better. Class A/b was the standard for most of us. Now class D but I have serious reservations about its long term reliability mostly due to these being stuffed into what is allegedly hi fidelity speakers to improve phase response and a few other parameters. And just after the warranty runs out you are buying new short lived amplifiers for these amazing speakers. Is that what you really want? Sorry I cannot buy into this bigger picture and call it progress.

If this stuff was modular, the sensible path would be to make the power supply robust enough to handle most needs, with a larger one made available if absolutely needed but if ClassD amplification is used, that wouldn't be an issue.

The amplifier class isn't where the phase response issues come to play- those are in the crossovers and other filters and active circuits are much more able to use steep slopes without audible degradation.

Car audio manufacturers rolled out ClassD close to 30 years ago and I would bet that many of those amplifiers still work, but I have no way to know. I never saw one blow up while I was still doing car audio, anyway. I do know that impedance affected their performance, though- as the impedance dropped, their lower frequency limit rose.

 

[highfigh]

So you have Quad amps all inside each of your speakers?

I don't mind ACTIVE speaker systems. But let everyone decide how they want it - whether to put the amps inside the speakers/subs or externally.

I think he was just showing that circuits could be replaced, upgraded or repaired without gutting the whole chassis.

 

[TLS Guy]

So you have Quad amps all inside each of your speakers?

I don't mind ACTIVE speaker systems. But let everyone decide how they want it - whether to put the amps inside the speakers/subs or externally.

No of course I don't put Quad 909 in speaker cabinets. But it takes a custom room. I have feet and feet of conduit, and 650' of 10G speaker cable in the room. There is an amp case with 9 two channel power amps, below a very quiet extractor system.

So class D amps and DSP controlled active crossover is the way to go. If you are going to use correction, then the best place to put it would be in the speakers, then each driver could be tweaked.

The next thing is that for many who stream, the AVR or AVP could be dispensed with. Then each speakers could be fed from Cat6 and a power cord. As Wi-Fi advances and latency issues are reliably solved, then may be just a power cord to each speaker.

I think I know why Apple are salivating over Sound United. I suspect they plan to allow for a system that only has speakers and is controlled from an iphone or iPad.

In you last post you wrote: - "I don't mind ACTIVE speaker systems." So I think we are starting to chisel through your concrete encased rigid thinking in your brain box.

Rigid thinking is where progress and innovation come to die.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No of course I don't put Quad 909 in speaker cabinets. But it takes a custom room. I have feet and feet of conduit, and 650' of 10G speaker cable in the room. There is an amp case with 9 two channel power amps, below a very quiet extractor system.

So class D amps and DSP controlled active crossover is the way to go. If you are going to use correction, then the best place to put it would be in the speakers, then each driver could be tweaked.

The next thing is that for many who stream, the AVR or AVP could be dispensed with. Then each speakers could be fed from Cat6 and a power cord. As Wi-Fi advances and latency issues are reliably solved, then may be just a power cord to each speaker.

I think I know why Apple are salivating over Sound United. I suspect they plan to allow for a system that only has speakers and is controlled from an iphone or iPad.

In you last post you wrote: - "I don't mind ACTIVE speaker systems." So I think we are starting to chisel through your concrete encased rigid thinking in your brain box.

Rigid thinking is where progress and innovation come to die.

As I've said many times, I have owned the Linkwtiz Orion 3.2.1 which is 100% active. But the amps/DSP/XO are all external. So nothing new here.

You need to get it through your old-dog thick skull mentality and just accept that people want to do things that's best for them, not for you.

 

[thomas w.]

@ audioRX and TLS guy - you make valid points about wiring complexity and the joke about making AVR's more reliable by putting amps in them made me laugh. I think the loss of AVR quality in the last decade is a shameful commentary on the state of the industry. Granted everyone is pushing these bleeding edge technologies to the ragged edge and reliability and consistency of performance at the bleeding edge is always a bit sketchy. Maybe what more people want is for the marketing people to get an honest job where they cant lie about the features of a product and let the engineers write the feature copy for their company's ads, less BS and more fact would be welcome. I am in the questtionably unenviable position of having to buy all new equipment after collecting some decent stuff over the years and having it all destroyed in a fire...the problem with that is that I want the same snappy performance I had out of my old gear and based on what I have read in reviews I am not going to get that in ANY AV receiver/processor that is even remotely affordable.

Yeah I know, somewhat off topic but not entirely....the added complexity of having a 5.2.2 dolby system today using a dedicated amp for each driver means that if all the speakers in the system are 2-way speakers - that is 14 separate amplifiers to keep running long term. And given the mean time between failure on amplifiers in vibration prone environments is less than stellar....well you see the problem. There is no way on God's green earth I would sign up for the maintenance nightmare that could easily be. Never mind the improvement in sound quality.

This is the equivalent of using a Lamborghini as your daily driver instead of the much more reliable chevy. It is several orders of magnitude a more exhilarating experience to drive the lambo than the chevy but those maintenance costs will catch up with you in the end. At some point there will be a time when we as music lovers will have to choose between powered speakers and passive and that will have a huge impact on the configuration of the final system being assembled and that time might be right now or in the very near future for practically all speaker manufacturers. I suspect there will be a sharp dividing line between those that prefer passive drivers to powered ones, much as we have seen between people that love their electric car versus those that prefer their Gas/diesel powered vehicle. So ultimately the marketplace will decide what is produced to support public demand and it may well be self powered speakers will take over but I hope we always have a choice. I can see the advantage of self powered speakers for certain applications. I submit the trendy "lifestyle' speakers on the market as an example. Or for some professional applications...but for my home theater? Nah, not yet.

 

[TLS Guy]

As I've said many times, I have owned the Linkwtiz Orion 3.2.1 which is 100% active. But the amps/DSP/XO are all external. So nothing new here.

You need to get it through your old-dog thick skull mentality and just accept that people want to do things that's best for them, not for you.

I only partially agree as a degree of standardization lowers costs for all and tends to increased reliability.

Things are not correct currently, as so few get into AV and put up with sound bars. A major rethink and innovation could really alter this square.

People have heavily invested in phones, and tablets and continue to do so. So making that the front end of AV systems makes a lot of sense.

So for most you could design AV systems that just require the devices most already own, and just add active speakers, and build the system anyway they want. Two to as many speakers and subs as they want or can afford.

That way most could get into really good streaming 2.1, 3.1 and up in a very affordable fashion. Most people have no idea what they want until systems are designed and put on offer.

I honestly think that the technology to do what I suggest is here now, and would not be that difficult.

The number of times I have had visitors who say that they wish they could get sound they could realy enjoy with their TVs is frequent. The problem tends to be the technical challenge rather than the expense.

So, my point is we need to be creative and bring down the barriers to entry. The lack of creative thinking continues to keep me dumbfounded.

"A high tide raises all ships" as they say where I come from.

 

[TLS Guy]

@ audioRX and TLS guy - you make valid points about wiring complexity and the joke about making AVR's more reliable by putting amps in them made me laugh. I think the loss of AVR quality in the last decade is a shameful commentary on the state of the industry. Granted everyone is pushing these bleeding edge technologies to the ragged edge and reliability and consistency of performance at the bleeding edge is always a bit sketchy. Maybe what more people want is for the marketing people to get an honest job where they cant lie about the features of a product and let the engineers write the feature copy for their company's ads, less BS and more fact would be welcome. I am in the questtionably unenviable position of having to buy all new equipment after collecting some decent stuff over the years and having it all destroyed in a fire...the problem with that is that I want the same snappy performance I had out of my old gear and based on what I have read in reviews I am not going to get that in ANY AV receiver/processor that is even remotely affordable.

Yeah I know, somewhat off topic but not entirely....the added complexity of having a 5.2.2 dolby system today using a dedicated amp for each driver means that if all the speakers in the system are 2-way speakers - that is 14 separate amplifiers to keep running long term. And given the mean time between failure on amplifiers in vibration prone environments is less than stellar....well you see the problem. There is no way on God's green earth I would sign up for the maintenance nightmare that could easily be. Never mind the improvement in sound quality.

This is the equivalent of using a Lamborghini as your daily driver instead of the much more reliable chevy. It is several orders of magnitude a more exhilarating experience to drive the lambo than the chevy but those maintenance costs will catch up with you in the end. At some point there will be a time when we as music lovers will have to choose between powered speakers and passive and that will have a huge impact on the configuration of the final system being assembled and that time might be right now or in the very near future for practically all speaker manufacturers. I suspect there will be a sharp dividing line between those that prefer passive drivers to powered ones, much as we have seen between people that love their electric car versus those that prefer their Gas/diesel powered vehicle. So ultimately the marketplace will decide what is produced to support public demand and it may well be self powered speakers will take over but I hope we always have a choice. I can see the advantage of self powered speakers for certain applications. I submit the trendy "lifestyle' speakers on the market as an example. Or for some professional applications...but for my home theater? Nah, not yet.

I disagree a system as I suggest could be made very reliable and easily serviceable especially if some standardization can be agreed. Things are not correct now. I disagree that amps in speaker will be unreliable. As I have pointed out, they will see easy to drive loads and won't be wasing gobs of power through passive crossover. I see an marked increase in reliability and longevity at less expense and increased quality as well. As I frequently point out there has never been a more ghastly device in the history of audio than the AV receiver.

 

[thomas w.]

This has turned into an interesting discussion...I appreciate hearing peoples ideas from both sides of the aisle. And as my house eventually gets rebuilt...I will probably try some powered speakers in locations where wireless connectivity is much preferred over wired. But it will be an experiment...I am not fully convinced its best to do so.

 

[thomas w.]

@ TLS guy - "As I frequently point out there has never been a more ghastly device in the history of audio than the AV receiver."

I pretty much agree with you on this one...High powered devices mixed with low level signals (fm tuner) (preamp) (Switching circuits) creating God knows how much hash in the digital domain today - Its nuts to expect all those various types of circuits to coexist peacefully in the same cabinet. All the digital junk needs to be away from all the analog, and the analog needs to be split into two boxes, one for high level and one for low level...and I am not sure what to say about class D designs that mix both analog and digital to bring us clean analog sound? I am highly suspect there, but will probably buy class D eventually due to price per watt and power consumption, though I am skeptical such an amplifier will last a long time.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I only partially agree as a degree of standardization lowers costs for all and tends to increased reliability.

Things are not correct currently, as so few get into AV and put up with sound bars. A major rethink and innovation could really alter this square.

People have heavily invested in phones, and tablets and continue to do so. So making that the front end of AV systems makes a lot of sense.

So for most you could design AV systems that just require the devices most already own, and just add active speakers, and build the system anyway they want. Two to as many speakers and subs as they want or can afford.

That way most could get into really good streaming 2.1, 3.1 and up in a very affordable fashion. Most people have no idea what they want until systems are designed and put on offer.

I honestly think that the technology to do what I suggest is here now, and would not be that difficult.

The number of times I have had visitors who say that they wish they could get sound they could realy enjoy with their TVs is frequent. The problem tends to be the technical challenge rather than the expense.

So, my point is we need to be creative and bring down the barriers to entry. The lack of creative thinking continues to keep me dumbfounded.

"A high tide raises all ships" as they say where I come from.

You’re suggesting everyone buy into powered active speakers, which was invented/created over 60 years ago by JBL.

So there is absolutely nothing new, creative or inventive about powered active speakers today.

There is a right time and place for everything. Powered speakers have their applications.

 

[TLS Guy]

You’re suggesting everyone buy into powered active speakers, which was invented/created over 60 years ago by JBL.

So there is absolutely nothing new, creative or inventive about powered active speakers today.

There is a right time and place for everything. Powered speakers have their applications.

The new boys on the block are digital crossovers and DSP. That will be the game changer. I have been involved with active speakers since 1976.
That my friend is RADICALLY new.

 

[Tankini]

@ TLS guy - "As I frequently point out there has never been a more ghastly device in the history of audio than the AV receiver."

I pretty much agree with you on this one...High powered devices mixed with low level signals (fm tuner) (preamp) (Switching circuits) creating God knows how much hash in the digital domain today - Its nuts to expect all those various types of circuits to coexist peacefully in the same cabinet. All the digital junk needs to be away from all the analog, and the analog needs to be split into two boxes, one for high level and one for low level...and I am not sure what to say about class D designs that mix both analog and digital to bring us clean analog sound? I am highly suspect there, but will probably buy class D eventually due to price per watt and power consumption, though I am skeptical such an amplifier will last a long time.

Good point of interest in your comments, I've been following PENG a lot on those new Class D amps he loves so much. The specs on them are some of the best I've seem. Also over on ASR site many are big fans of those types of amps. High output to dollar value, I'm just not completely sold yet on the true value as per longevity and reliability. Warranty on Class D about 3 year's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good point of interest in your comments, I've been following PENG a lot on those new Class D amps he loves so much. The specs on them are some of the best I've seem. Also over on ASR site many are big fans of those types of amps. High out put to dollar value, I'm just not completely sold yet on the true value as per longevity and reliability. Warranty on Class D about 3 year's.

Warranty on these are usually 1 year to 3 years.

ATI class D are still 7 Years warranty.

One thing I haven’t seen from class D (for mainly academic and amusement) is how they perform on the 1-ohm test. I want to see someone take an ATI class-D amp that weighs 65 lbs and do the 1-ohm test.

Does the ATI 65 lbs class D perform better than the other 15 lbs class D in terms of power and impedance?

 

[highfigh]

I only partially agree as a degree of standardization lowers costs for all and tends to increased reliability.

Things are not correct currently, as so few get into AV and put up with sound bars. A major rethink and innovation could really alter this square.

People have heavily invested in phones, and tablets and continue to do so. So making that the front end of AV systems makes a lot of sense.

So for most you could design AV systems that just require the devices most already own, and just add active speakers, and build the system anyway they want. Two to as many speakers and subs as they want or can afford.

That way most could get into really good streaming 2.1, 3.1 and up in a very affordable fashion. Most people have no idea what they want until systems are designed and put on offer.

I honestly think that the technology to do what I suggest is here now, and would not be that difficult.

The number of times I have had visitors who say that they wish they could get sound they could realy enjoy with their TVs is frequent. The problem tends to be the technical challenge rather than the expense.

So, my point is we need to be creative and bring down the barriers to entry. The lack of creative thinking continues to keep me dumbfounded.

"A high tide raises all ships" as they say where I come from.

Are you using marketing data or your opinion when you think "...as so few get into AV and put up with sound bars."? Soundbars are the easy way and if you believe they're faultless, I have some land on Mars that I can sell you because AVRs are sold in much larger numbers. Even as an entry point, a sound bar leaves so much to be desired WRT source switching and sound quality that only the hen-pecked and clueless take it, whether they actually like it or not. When I walk into an AV distributor, I don't see stacks of sound bars, I see shelves and stacks of AVRs. In Beast Buy, I really don't see much of anything at the one near my house because they don't have anyone who knows AV working there.

 

[Tankini]

Warranty on these are usually 1 year to 3 years.

ATI class D are still 7 Years warranty.

One thing I haven’t seen from class D (for mainly academic and amusement) is how they perform on the 1-ohm test. I want to see someone take an ATI class-D amp that weighs 65 lbs and do the 1-ohm test.

Does the ATI 65 lbs class D perform better than the other 15 lbs class D in terms of power and impedance?

Class D amps have been around a long time. I used them all the time in my cars and trucks. My most recent use of Class D amps were in my 2007 Mustang. Had two Class D amps in that car. They were the original amps that came with the car. Sold that car back in 2017 so 10 year old amps that were exposed to extreme heat and extreme cold, Winter and Summer month's.

Everybody knows temperatures can rise to over 160+ Fahrenheit in vehicles and freezing temperatures in winter of long term periods. I've read reviews were some have tried them and just didn't like the sound of them, other reviews loved them. I can not say I didn't like the sound Quality of those Class D amps in my vehicles. They kicked ass, were clean sounding, midrange, low end was very good. But than I'm sure the quality of my speakers had a lot to do with sound quality.

 

[TLS Guy]

Warranty on these are usually 1 year to 3 years.

ATI class D are still 7 Years warranty.

One thing I haven’t seen from class D (for mainly academic and amusement) is how they perform on the 1-ohm test. I want to see someone take an ATI class-D amp that weighs 65 lbs and do the 1-ohm test.

Does the ATI 65 lbs class D perform better than the other 15 lbs class D in terms of power and impedance?

A 1 ohm test is not very useful. A speaker that has an impedance as low as 1 ohm at any point is a bad speaker with the crossover in resonance and not fit for use. I know some very expensive speakers do that, but they are not worth 2 cents.

In an active speaker an amp will never see a 1 ohm load or anything at all close to it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Are you using marketing data or your opinion when you think "...as so few get into AV and put up with sound bars."? Soundbars are the easy way and if you believe they're faultless, I have some land on Mars that I can sell you because AVRs are sold in much larger numbers. Even as an entry point, a sound bar leaves so much to be desired WRT source switching and sound quality that only the hen-pecked and clueless take it, whether they actually like it or not. When I walk into an AV distributor, I don't see stacks of sound bars, I see shelves and stacks of AVRs. In Beast Buy, I really don't see much of anything at the one near my house because they don't have anyone who knows AV working there.

No, just my observation. Pretty much everyhome I go into has a sound bar, and the local big box stores like Target and Walmart are stacked with Sound Bars. AVRs in homes seem less common than they used to be by far.

 

[thomas w.]

Warranty on these are usually 1 year to 3 years.

ATI class D are still 7 Years warranty.

One thing I haven’t seen from class D (for mainly academic and amusement) is how they perform on the 1-ohm test. I want to see someone take an ATI class-D amp that weighs 65 lbs and do the 1-ohm test.

Does the ATI 65 lbs class D perform better than the other 15 lbs class D in terms of power and impedance?

I love the comment - "One thing I haven’t seen from class D (for mainly academic and amusement) is how they perform on the 1-ohm test. I want to see someone take an ATI class-D amp that weighs 65 lbs and do the 1-ohm test. "

I think many of the class D amps on the market would fail that test miserably...bet you could probably fry your morning eggs on the chassis during that test. I cannot speak for or against any home audio grade class D amps as I have no direct experience with any of them yet. But that is likely going to change. When I finally get to replace what I lost in the fire I will likely pull the trigger on 3 two channel amps to feed a 5.1 system. Where I go after that depends on how those 3 perform.

 

[Tankini]

I can't get behind spending 1500 for Class D Amp for my home audio, when for the same coin one can get a 200 X 2 Class A/B Amp. Sure one Weighs a lot less than the other and of course A/B Amp power supply isn't as efficient. Who really needs 1200 rms, but then some have 750k speaker's in a 30 x 30 room Mansions. My 110 x 2 rms will make my ears bleed.