Improving audio system

W

white pirate

Enthusiast
So you are going for loudness.

IMO, adding an external amp isn’t going to improve anything in your system or make it louder.

If you love or prefer ceiling speakers and absolutely don’t want floor-standing or in-wall speakers, you could upgrade to higher-end and bigger in-ceiling speakers. Like 10” woofers.
Can I find 4 10" high-end speakers in my budget ?
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I'm new here, I asked for help, if you dont intend to help, better dont replay.
No problem and for the record i'm old......... Anyways my comment was meant as an assumption your system was just for ambient music. So, I was wrong. TLS is correct , wasting $$ on ceiling speakers for a perceived quality stereo listening experience is absurd IMO as well.

Good luck in your quest...........
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I doubt it is. I have never seen a room that defeats at least a decent two channel system. There are lots of way new wiring can be hidden. Post some pictures.
Ever try to run cables in a masonry or concrete wall?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
No other elegant solution.
In have cables only in the ceiling.
Looks like its a dead end.
If the building isn't made of concrete, running new cables is usually possible but that will eat into your budget.

What are the length, width and height of the room and what are the materials used, drywall on wood frame, brick on concrete, brick veneer, wood paneling?
 
W

white pirate

Enthusiast
No problem and for the record i'm old......... Anyways my comment was meant as an assumption your system was just for ambient music. So, I was wrong. TLS is correct , wasting $$ on ceiling speakers for a perceived quality stereo listening experience is absurd IMO as well.

Good luck in your quest...........
Thank you.
 
W

white pirate

Enthusiast
If the building isn't made of concrete, running new cables is usually possible but that will eat into your budget.

What are the length, width and height of the room and what are the materials used, drywall on wood frame, brick on concrete, brick veneer, wood paneling?
The room is 10m x 10m and the ceiling is at 3.5m.
The speakers are at 5m x 5m area.
I dont want to cut walls, but I can add cables in the drywall ceiling.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
What does the "pre out" mean?
Just to be clear, "pre out" means that you can use your Yamaha receiver as a pre-amplifier if you connect an external amplifier to it. Use audio interconnect cables with male RCA plugs on the ends, such as these shown below. One white/red pair connects to the pre out jacks on your Yamaha and the other pair connects on the back of the external amp. External amps lack switching & volume/tone controls. They require a stand alone pre-amplifier, or a receiver with PRE OUT jacks, such as yours.
1710605388162.png

Again, just to be clear, more power from an external amp will not affect the sound quality (or lack of it) with ceiling speakers. Your Yamaha audio video (A/V) receiver probably can drive those 4 speakers without an external amp.
My budget is 1000$.
I want to stay with ceiling speakers.
The speakers spc is 50W RMS …
A spec for speakers, such as 50W RMS, does not mean the speakers require 50 Watts. It means that the speakers cannot be driven with 50 Watts or more for any length of time, without risking damage.
… can I connect all 4 as front and use amp?
By "connect all 4 as front and use an amp", do you mean in mono, or stereo? Usually, people use Left and Right channels separately for stereo sound. With 4 speakers and an A/V receiver such as yours, you can have left & right front channels along with left & right rear channels. That would be preferable, but locations of the ceiling speakers relative to listeners and seating matter a lot.

As others have said, with ceiling speakers, all bets are off.
 
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isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
The room is 10m x 10m and the ceiling is at 3.5m.
The speakers are at 5m x 5m area.
I dont want to cut walls, but I can add cables in the drywall ceiling.
So....nowhere in this rather huge room is there space for a couple of good speakers against the wall with a small stand for components ? Where are the components now ?
This thread and your stance is beyond ridiculous.
 
W

white pirate

Enthusiast
So....nowhere in this rather huge room is there space for a couple of good speakers against the wall with a small stand for components ? Where are the components now ?
This thread and your stance is beyond ridiculous.
The reciver is not in that room, its 7m away.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
Buy some of these and an RSL subwoofer with wireless....surely you have space for the sub somewhere in that huge room.
Call RSL.

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes we do.
You must be conditioned to like voices from on high. I have to say you are on target, to get the award for the most nonsensical thread we have ever had.

Having the control unit far away from where you listen is not only inconvenient, but daft.

There are certain conforming rules to every human endeavor. If you don't at least conform to the basics you will forever hit your head hard against the wall.

You are carrying rigid thinking to extreme and daft levels.

I know if I were in that space of yours I bet I would design an elegant good sounding system in no time. It would not include 10" speakers in the ceiling which will increase the horror show. That is because the larger cones will go into break up mode much sooner down the frequency range before it can match to any tweeter.

If you post some pictures of that room, I bet we can come up with a solution that will give good sound and probably combine it with a picture. The sound will also come from the best and most appropriate area of the room.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So....nowhere in this rather huge room is there space for a couple of good speakers against the wall with a small stand for components ? Where are the components now ?
This thread and your stance is beyond ridiculous.
The fact that they used meters for the dimensions should tell you this place isn't in the US- outside of the US, construction isn't the same.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The fact that they used meters for the dimensions should tell you this place isn't in the US- outside of the US, construction isn't the same.
Yes, I was wondering the same thing. We should know members locations. That should be basic.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
The room is 10m x 10m and the ceiling is at 3.5m.
The speakers are at 5m x 5m area.
I dont want to cut walls, but I can add cables in the drywall ceiling.
While you have been given some proper advice, it does not solve your problem of lack of volume.
Yamaha rxv685 specs are here.
Yamaha NS-IC800 speakers here.
That is a very large room with high ceilings. The Yamaha speakers are just average and ok for background music but at high volumes you could damage those speakers depending on how they are wired. They are rated 50W nominal while the receiver can output 90W per channel.

What we need to know is how the speakers are currently wired. If the pairs are wired in series (in a daisy-chain style, receiver plus to speaker A +, speaker A - to speaker B +, speaker B - to receiver -) then you are splitting the power over two speakers, so basically half of 90W maximum to each speaker, or 45W maximum per speaker. That will protect the speakers from being damaged but then you are under utilizing your receiver. If the speakers are wired in parallel (receiver + to speaker A + and speaker B +, speaker A - and speaker B - to receiver -) then the speaker impedance drops from 8 ohms to 4 ohms and you may over drive the amplifier.

If you have 4 separate pairs of wires running from the speakers to the receiver, then there is a way to use 4 channels of amplification instead of just two. You connect one pair of speakers to the front left and right speakers connections on the receiver and connect the other pair of speakers to the surround left and right. You then set the audio mode of the receiver to all-channel-stereo. This sends the same level of signal to both the front and surround speakers so that you get the same volume from all four and use 4 channels of amplification. If the receiver is changed to any other surround mode, you will loose volume from the surround pair.

You could also connect one pair of speakers to Zone 2 (instead of surround) and then enable "Party Mode" in the receiver. That should also output the same sound level to all four speakers using 4 amplifiers (but there is probably separate volume control for the main zone and zone 2, so that is not ideal as you need to turn up each zone individually).

90W should be enough to fill your 5m x 5m space when sitting underneath but you will not fill that entire 10m x 10m room with 4 small speakers, so you need to set your expectations accordingly. We need to know what country you are in to recommend a speaker upgrade. There are definitely better options out there, although $1000 may not be enough for all 4 unless you can find a good sale.

Your initial question was about adding an amplifier. The Yamaha does have a Pre-Out connection for the front channels, so yes, it supports adding a 2-channel amplifier with more power. I would not recommend that in this case. You need to double your power to achieve a 3dB gain in volume, so you would needing to add an amp with 200W per channel or more to make a significant difference, and then you get into the issue of whether those Yamaha speakers can handle that much power.
 
W

white pirate

Enthusiast
While you have been given some proper advice, it does not solve your problem of lack of volume.
Yamaha rxv685 specs are here.
Yamaha NS-IC800 speakers here.
That is a very large room with high ceilings. The Yamaha speakers are just average and ok for background music but at high volumes you could damage those speakers depending on how they are wired. They are rated 50W nominal while the receiver can output 90W per channel.

What we need to know is how the speakers are currently wired. If the pairs are wired in series (in a daisy-chain style, receiver plus to speaker A +, speaker A - to speaker B +, speaker B - to receiver -) then you are splitting the power over two speakers, so basically half of 90W maximum to each speaker, or 45W maximum per speaker. That will protect the speakers from being damaged but then you are under utilizing your receiver. If the speakers are wired in parallel (receiver + to speaker A + and speaker B +, speaker A - and speaker B - to receiver -) then the speaker impedance drops from 8 ohms to 4 ohms and you may over drive the amplifier.

If you have 4 separate pairs of wires running from the speakers to the receiver, then there is a way to use 4 channels of amplification instead of just two. You connect one pair of speakers to the front left and right speakers connections on the receiver and connect the other pair of speakers to the surround left and right. You then set the audio mode of the receiver to all-channel-stereo. This sends the same level of signal to both the front and surround speakers so that you get the same volume from all four and use 4 channels of amplification. If the receiver is changed to any other surround mode, you will loose volume from the surround pair.

You could also connect one pair of speakers to Zone 2 (instead of surround) and then enable "Party Mode" in the receiver. That should also output the same sound level to all four speakers using 4 amplifiers (but there is probably separate volume control for the main zone and zone 2, so that is not ideal as you need to turn up each zone individually).

90W should be enough to fill your 5m x 5m space when sitting underneath but you will not fill that entire 10m x 10m room with 4 small speakers, so you need to set your expectations accordingly. We need to know what country you are in to recommend a speaker upgrade. There are definitely better options out there, although $1000 may not be enough for all 4 unless you can find a good sale.

Your initial question was about adding an amplifier. The Yamaha does have a Pre-Out connection for the front channels, so yes, it supports adding a 2-channel amplifier with more power. I would not recommend that in this case. You need to double your power to achieve a 3dB gain in volume, so you would needing to add an amp with 200W per channel or more to make a significant difference, and then you get into the issue of whether those Yamaha speakers can handle that much power.
Hi Eppie,
Thank you for detailed answer.
Some answers:
Each speaker is connected directly to the reciver.
We use zone 2 for another room.
We live in France.

I have also found my old Yamaha RXV377 reciver, will it be good to connect it to the Pre-out, and add another pair of speakers ? Can I add 4 ?
 
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