Improving audio system

[dlaloum]

Some simple basics, that have not been mentioned and may not be obvious...

Sound, especially higher frequencies, travels like light... your speakers act like a movie projector

To get the optimal stereo effect (where you can discern the location of items in 3D space... which is the original meaning of "stereo" - ie the illusion of solidity) - the speakers (or at least the midrange drivers and tweeters) - should be at ear level, and circa 60 degrees appart in front of the listener.

This then allows the ear to do its job, with the shape of the ear and its response to sound, as well as the way our brain processes the sound, allowing for our brain to be "tricked" into seeing audible illusions.

Those audible illusions are often termed "imaging" - you cannot achieve a semblance of imaging with most ceiling mounted setups. (there could be exceptions - you might be able to bounce the sound off a wall, if carefully designed, resulting in something approaching ear level sound incoming ...)

Soundstage is another audiophile term, which tends to describe the sense of a large space, not bounded by the speakers, within which the aural illusion then happens ... the speakers tend to no longer be obvious as sound sources... and instead you are enveloped by sound. (if you feel like the speakers are acting as "sound spotlights" then things are not going well!)

Loudness is a whole different ball of wax, it is about quantity primarily and not quality... many speakers are limited in their maximum Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) ie: loudness - and beyond a certain point they will start to distort substantially, or even self destruct....

For some / many speakers, increased loudness can be achieved with a more powerful amplifier - keeping in mind that doubling the loudness (circa 10db) requires roughly 16x the amount of power...

So if you want to double the loudness of a 100W amp, you would need a 1600W amp (and a speaker that can handle that much power!)

In most cases, loudness is best increased by using more efficient speakers - the specifications for the speaker will state something like 90db/wm or 90db/2.83Vm (ie with an input of 1W or 2.83V, the speaker will output a loudness of 90 decibels measured at a distance of 1m)

My speakers are rated 86db/wm, highly efficient speakers can be rated at 96db/wm - and will obviously be twice as loud, for the same signal input from the amplifier.

So if you are stuck with the speaker locations, and seek more loudness primarily, you should focus on more efficient (loud!) speakers.

Alternatively, if you are not concerned about imaging and soundstaging, are happy with an overall ambient sound effect (quite common with ceiling speakers) - then you could add additional sets of ceiling speakers... each additional speaker added should boost the base loudness by circa 3db.

In terms of room layout, cabling etc... we are now in an era where many speakers are connected wirelessly... so if power is available to the speaker location, there may well be alternatives that do not involve speaker cables (but involve power cables instead)

I hope this helps

 

[white pirate]

Some simple basics, that have not been mentioned and may not be obvious...

Sound, especially higher frequencies, travels like light... your speakers act like a movie projector

To get the optimal stereo effect (where you can discern the location of items in 3D space... which is the original meaning of "stereo" - ie the illusion of solidity) - the speakers (or at least the midrange drivers and tweeters) - should be at ear level, and circa 60 degrees appart in front of the listener.

This then allows the ear to do its job, with the shape of the ear and its response to sound, as well as the way our brain processes the sound, allowing for our brain to be "tricked" into seeing audible illusions.

Those audible illusions are often termed "imaging" - you cannot achieve a semblance of imaging with most ceiling mounted setups. (there could be exceptions - you might be able to bounce the sound off a wall, if carefully designed, resulting in something approaching ear level sound incoming ...)

Soundstage is another audiophile term, which tends to describe the sense of a large space, not bounded by the speakers, within which the aural illusion then happens ... the speakers tend to no longer be obvious as sound sources... and instead you are enveloped by sound. (if you feel like the speakers are acting as "sound spotlights" then things are not going well!)

Loudness is a whole different ball of wax, it is about quantity primarily and not quality... many speakers are limited in their maximum Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) ie: loudness - and beyond a certain point they will start to distort substantially, or even self destruct....

For some / many speakers, increased loudness can be achieved with a more powerful amplifier - keeping in mind that doubling the loudness (circa 10db) requires roughly 16x the amount of power...

So if you want to double the loudness of a 100W amp, you would need a 1600W amp (and a speaker that can handle that much power!)

In most cases, loudness is best increased by using more efficient speakers - the specifications for the speaker will state something like 90db/wm or 90db/2.83Vm (ie with an input of 1W or 2.83V, the speaker will output a loudness of 90 decibels measured at a distance of 1m)

My speakers are rated 86db/wm, highly efficient speakers can be rated at 96db/wm - and will obviously be twice as loud, for the same signal input from the amplifier.

So if you are stuck with the speaker locations, and seek more loudness primarily, you should focus on more efficient (loud!) speakers.

Alternatively, if you are not concerned about imaging and soundstaging, are happy with an overall ambient sound effect (quite common with ceiling speakers) - then you could add additional sets of ceiling speakers... each additional speaker added should boost the base loudness by circa 3db.

In terms of room layout, cabling etc... we are now in an era where many speakers are connected wirelessly... so if power is available to the speaker location, there may well be alternatives that do not involve speaker cables (but involve power cables instead)

I hope this helps

Thank you for the explanation.
It does help, I learn more and more about sound.

 

[ab17182]

Adding a preamp/amp setup could definitely amp up your audio experience. It might provide some extra oomph and clarity to your sound. Just make sure the preamp/amp you choose is compatible with your receiver and speakers.

 

[Eppie]

Hi Eppie,
Thank you for detailed answer.
Some answers:
Each speaker is connected directly to the receiver.
We use zone 2 for another room.
We live in France.

I have also found my old Yamaha RXV377 receiver, will it be good to connect it to the Pre-out, and add another pair of speakers ? Can I add 4 ?

So all 4 speakers in the main zone are currently connected to the front left and right terminals?

If zone 2 is being used, then the only option is to move 2 speakers to the surround terminals and set the receiver to all channel stereo. That is an experiment that should be fairly easy for you to try and will not cost any money. I forgot to mention that if you use the surround terminals, you may have to go into the setup menu on the receiver, go to the speaker settings and enable the surround channels. Most receivers have settings for which speakers are being used and your surround channels may currently be off. If you hear no improvement in volume then the next step is to upgrade the speakers and maybe add more amplification.

I say upgrade the speakers first because at 50W nominal you can not safely upgrade the amplifiers without risking damaging the speakers at high volumes. The further the speakers are away from you, the more power you need to reach the same volume level where you are seated, so with your high ceilings you need more power than someone with standard 8 feet (2.4m) ceilings.

Could you use the RXV377? Yes, in theory it could work, but that would be a rather "hodge podge" (jumble) way of doing things. The speaker connections are similar so again you would use the front and surround terminals for 4 speakers and set it to all channel stereo. Being an older receiver, you need to confirm that it has an all-channel-stereo audio mode and that the volume can be set so that when the receiver is turned off and on, the volume remains the same (this will be in the setup menu). Some receivers always default to a low volume setting, while others will remember what the volume was at power off and turn back on at the same volume. You want the volume fixed so that the RXV377 acts like a straight amplifier. The pre-out of the RXV685 would connect to the Audio or AV input on the RXV377 (red and white input jacks).

A more elegant solution is to add a 4 channel amplifier to the RXV685, or a 2-channel amplifier that can handle 4 speakers. Fosi Audio makes compact inexpensive class-D amplifers for around $100. They are 2-channel amplifiers, so you could use a pair of RCA Y-adapters to split the pre-out into two pairs and use two Fosi Audio amplifiers. 4-channel amplifiers are harder to find and are used more in car and marine applications but you may find something in the used market. It is more common to find 2-channel and 5-channel amps for home audio. Older 2-channel integrated amps often have A and B speaker connections allowing the connection of 4 speakers, so a used Yamaha integrated amp like an AX-700 could work, but those little Fosi Audio amps actually have more power (if you get the larger power supply).

 

[Eppie]

The op's Yamaha speakers have a 90dB efficiency rating which is already fairly good. My concern is the 50W power rating. Fine for background music but I would not crank those up to dance party levels.

I know the members here have the best of intentions, but this couple is not looking for better stereo imaging and improved frequency response and all the things that proper boxed speakers would bring. They just want the music to be louder sometimes. I had a friend with a large room with high ceilings that he used for social gatherings and rented for small events. He didn't want any speakers or stands on the floor. He installed a projector and screen and the speakers all went into the ceiling. They were higher end speakers (may have been B&W) and he had plenty of amplification. That room had night club level sound levels when he cranked it up. He had dozens of parties in that room and we also watched sports on the big screen some nights. In all the years that he owned that property, no one ever complained that he should have had box speakers and not in-ceiling. I was probably the only one that ever thought that because I am into home theatre. Sometimes you just have to give the people what they want.

 

[white pirate]

So all 4 speakers in the main zone are currently connected to the front left and right terminals?

If zone 2 is being used, then the only option is to move 2 speakers to the surround terminals and set the receiver to all channel stereo. That is an experiment that should be fairly easy for you to try and will not cost any money. I forgot to mention that if you use the surround terminals, you may have to go into the setup menu on the receiver, go to the speaker settings and enable the surround channels. Most receivers have settings for which speakers are being used and your surround channels may currently be off. If you hear no improvement in volume then the next step is to upgrade the speakers and maybe add more amplification.

I say upgrade the speakers first because at 50W nominal you can not safely upgrade the amplifiers without risking damaging the speakers at high volumes. The further the speakers are away from you, the more power you need to reach the same volume level where you are seated, so with your high ceilings you need more power than someone with standard 8 feet (2.4m) ceilings.

Could you use the RXV377? Yes, in theory it could work, but that would be a rather "hodge podge" (jumble) way of doing things. The speaker connections are similar so again you would use the front and surround terminals for 4 speakers and set it to all channel stereo. Being an older receiver, you need to confirm that it has an all-channel-stereo audio mode and that the volume can be set so that when the receiver is turned off and on, the volume remains the same (this will be in the setup menu). Some receivers always default to a low volume setting, while others will remember what the volume was at power off and turn back on at the same volume. You want the volume fixed so that the RXV377 acts like a straight amplifier. The pre-out of the RXV685 would connect to the Audio or AV input on the RXV377 (red and white input jacks).

A more elegant solution is to add a 4 channel amplifier to the RXV685, or a 2-channel amplifier that can handle 4 speakers. Fosi Audio makes compact inexpensive class-D amplifers for around $100. They are 2-channel amplifiers, so you could use a pair of RCA Y-adapters to split the pre-out into two pairs and use two Fosi Audio amplifiers. 4-channel amplifiers are harder to find and are used more in car and marine applications but you may find something in the used market. It is more common to find 2-channel and 5-channel amps for home audio. Older 2-channel integrated amps often have A and B speaker connections allowing the connection of 4 speakers, so a used Yamaha integrated amp like an AX-700 could work, but those little Fosi Audio amps actually have more power (if you get the larger power supply).

Thank you,
I think Ill buy the TB10D and add two pairs of speakers.