Marantz AV10 calibrated by Audyssey lacks bass

[Paul McNeil]

So I’m gonna try later to make some sense…..
Quickly though, S&V measured the Klipsch having an f3 at 22hz and f6 at 20. That’s pretty typical for subs around that era. Combined they probably have more midbass capability than the PC’s, but those pc’s are much more capable of deep bass. I’m pretty sure there’s some phase issues around the tunings of each sub, but I think it would show up differently. So imo, let’s try and get the downward slope figured out first. If I were in this situation and had any budget, I’d sell all five subs, and buy two newer ones. Integration would be much simpler, and imo overall performance would be improved. However, working with what we’ve got is sometimes what we’ve got.
And I’m definitely glad to help. I just hope that I am!!! lol. @PENG and @shadyJ are smarter than I am in this area, as one has spent countless hours integrating his five subs(iirc) and the other is the resident speaker/subwoofer reviewer. I’ve been using rew since about 2014 so I’m just smart enough to be dangerous.

If I were in this situation and had any budget, I’d sell all five subs, and buy two newer ones. Integration would be much simpler, and imo overall performance would be improved.

It's obvious what these subs have from the curves I posted, and it's all I need. I'm not looking for flat to 10 htz.

What is not explained is why Audyssey running on an AV10 (which Audioholics did not review, in room) gives in room errors of 12 dB on subwoofer levels.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It's obvious what these subs have from the curves I posted, and it's all I need. I'm not looking for flat to 10 htz.

What is not explained is why Audyssey running on an AV10 (which Audioholics did not review, in room) gives in room errors of 12 dB on subwoofer levels.

Right. The main issue is the odd -12 thing. Flat to 10? That’s another conversation lol. Let’s just get flat at all! Again, I know its basically starting over, but I really thing using both groups as “two subs” via two outputs is where to start.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Right. The main issue is the odd -12 thing. Flat to 10? That’s another conversation lol. Let’s just get flat at all! Again, I know its basically starting over, but I really thing using both groups as “two subs” via two outputs is where to start.

I'm going to try it, after all I did that before and know how, and will report back!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm going to try it, after all I did that before and know how, and will report back!

Roger that!

 

[Paul McNeil]

Roger that!

Actually, I was flat to 10 htz once, with three 18" long-throw, high excrusion woofers operating in infinite baffle (the rear wave was to the outside of the house). Cool but not here...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Actually, I was flat to 10 htz once, with three 18" long-throw, high excrusion woofers operating in infinite baffle (the rear wave was to the outside of the house). Cool but not here...

Niiiice.

 

[ban25]

Here's a couple of housekeeping items to check when doing an Audyssey calibration:

1. Make sure to disable Mid-Range Correction (MRC) in the Audyssey app
2. Add a low-shelf (+6 dB or so) to the low-end to prevent bass from being neutered
3. Make sure your speakers are set to SMALL in the AV10 setup. If they are set to LARGE and you are not using LFE+MAIN (which is generally not recommended), you will have no subwoofer output aside from the LFE channel in 5.1/7.1 content. This means, for instance, zero subwoofer activity in 2-channel music, and much less than you may be accustomed to in movies.

 

[Paul McNeil]

This means, for instance, zero subwoofer activity in 2-channel music, and much less than you may be accustomed to in movies.

I do have and want subwoofer activity in stereo, with a 80 htz crossover. Have a look an Erin's speaker reviews, which feature accurate quantitative measurements. Even with my Revel Performa F226BE speakers, distortion (including intermodulation distortion) is minimized with a crossover to adequate subwoofers, which I have in spades.

 

[TLS Guy]

I do have and want subwoofer activity in stereo, with a 80 htz crossover. Have a look an Erin's speaker reviews, which feature accurate quantitative measurements. Even with my Revel Performa F226BE speakers, distortion (including intermodulation distortion) is minimized with a crossover to adequate subwoofers, which I have in spades.

There is zero point to stereo subs, in fact they exacerbate room problems. With those speakers I would definitely try LFE + main. I highly doubt distortion will be an issue in a domestic situation. The sub outputs are not stereo but just allow for different crossover points and levels.

 

[Paul McNeil]

There is zero point to stereo subs

Hahahahaha!

 

[ban25]

I do have and want subwoofer activity in stereo, with a 80 htz crossover. Have a look an Erin's speaker reviews, which feature accurate quantitative measurements. Even with my Revel Performa F226BE speakers, distortion (including intermodulation distortion) is minimized with a crossover to adequate subwoofers, which I have in spades.

I am trying to help you set up your AV10 properly.

Please make sure your speakers are set to "Small" in speaker layout and make sure Subwoofer Mode is set to "LFE". This is to ensure your subwoofers work as desired.

 

[Paul McNeil]

I am trying to help you set up your AV10 properly.

Please make sure your speakers are set to "Small" in speaker layout and make sure Subwoofer Mode is set to "LFE". This is to ensure your subwoofers work as desired.

Thank you. My speakers are set to small (sorry this a long thread) and my subwoofer is set to LFE.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There is zero point to stereo subs, in fact they exacerbate room problems. With those speakers I would definitely try LFE + main. I highly doubt distortion will be an issue in a domestic situation. The sub outputs are not stereo but just allow for different crossover points and levels.

Mark. We aren’t talkin about stereo subs. He meant his subs work when in stereo mode.
Even though I agree with you.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you. My speakers are set to small (sorry this a long thread) and my subwoofer is set to LFE.

Marantz units to not only send the LFE to the subs on LFE + main. They send the LFE to the sub, but send the non LFE bass to subs and speakers set to large.

Many including myself find that does in fact give the best and smoothest room response. Only my ceiling speakers are set to small and the rest to LFE + main. I can assure you it works really well. Only my in wall system has the speaker fully crossover and that is to minimize wall reflection issues. My 2.1 system is also LFE + main.

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you used the AV10 setup manually and measured (i.e. not using Audyssey)?

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark. We aren’t talkin about stereo subs. He meant his subs work when in stereo mode.
Even though I agree with you.

I thought he was trying to make the subs stereo. Anyhow his subs should work in stereo mode, as long he is not in pure or direct mode. If he is in standard stereo mode his subs should work. All my Marantz units work that way.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I thought he was trying to make the subs stereo. Anyhow his subs should work in stereo mode, as long he is not in pure or direct mode. If he is in standard stereo mode his subs should work. All my Marantz units work that way.

His subs do work. The problem is after he runs audyssey, the level below 100hz trends downward by 10-12db. Like the opposite of a normal house curve.

 

[TLS Guy]

His subs do work. The problem is after he runs audyssey, the level below 100hz trends downward by 10-12db. Like the opposite of a normal house curve.

That is his problem which is running Audyssey. That program makes a mess of my system, and I have data to prove it. I do not use Audyssey, so called room correction on any of my systems. They are far worse than useless and downgrade SQ in many ways. I have had three different versions of them and they all were worse then useless. It does distance well, and levels, except sub channel level, as the OP is finding out.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That is his problem which is running Audyssey. That program makes a mess of my system, and I have data to prove it. I do not use Audyssey, so called room correction on any of my systems. They are far worse than useless and downgrade SQ in many ways. I have had three different versions of them and they all were worse then useless. It does distance well, and levels, except sub channel level, as the OP is finding out.

I can see where it’s a problem for some systems. But I definitely don’t think it’s globally harmful. I’ve had pretty good experiences with it, however I do limit it to 300hz and below. I believe @PENG got rid of his minidsp and only uses audyssey to tame his five sub system.
As far as the OP is concerned, I don’t necessarily think it’s strictly audyssey causing the issue, but more that the connection type is not supported by it. In case you missed. He has two PC ultras in one corner, and three Klipsch THX subs in another. Rather than treating each group as two separate subs, he’s connected them using the four outputs of the AVR which will level and EQ them separately, although I haven’t read the papers on what it does exactly yet. (Not sure where the splitter is)
So basically audyssey comes back with the whole group of subs 10-12db too low.
I believe he’s going back to using two sub outs. One to each separate group, then will post results.
I also think you might consider leaving your system out of the conversation since it really isn’t like almost anyone’s! lol

 

[lovinthehd]

I can see where it’s a problem for some systems. But I definitely don’t think it’s globally harmful. I’ve had pretty good experiences with it, however I do limit it to 300hz and below. I believe @PENG got rid of his minidsp and only uses audyssey to tame his five sub system.
As far as the OP is concerned, I don’t necessarily think it’s strictly audyssey causing the issue, but more that the connection type is not supported by it. In case you missed. He has two PC ultras in one corner, and three Klipsch THX subs in another. Rather than treating each group as two separate subs, he’s connected them using the four outputs of the AVR which will level and EQ them separately, although I haven’t read the papers on what it does exactly yet. (Not sure where the splitter is)
So basically audyssey comes back with the whole group of subs 10-12db too low.
I believe he’s going back to using two sub outs. One to each separate group, then will post results.
I also think you might consider leaving your system out of the conversation since it really isn’t like almost anyone’s! lol

Audyssey doesn't eq separately the four subs, just level/delay then eq them as a whole.