Marantz AV10 calibrated by Audyssey lacks bass

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ok. Curious to see what happens. Also, you probably know, but there’s a button for the 20-200 measurement limit.

 

[Paul McNeil]

OK, I think this is what you were interested in. Note the SVS has a 6dB boost at 25 htz, that I set via a phone app for these subs. I was attempting to get a bit more at the lower end, and did...

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I get that, the advantage of four pre-outs for 4 subs distributed around the room. Actually, I've tried the Klipsch in a back corner, but that didn't go well, they didn't integrate well with the SVS in the front two corners. The bass lacked definition, and I hate that. But I couldn't move anything back there now, have since installed built in bookshelves.

I agree with HD and William, and I think if you use the stacked Klipsch subs as one group and the two SVS as two group such that subout1 and subout2 for the two SVS subs, and subout3 for the Klipsch stack, Audyssey will have better time integrating them.

Audyssey does not do phase optimization, but time alignment only. It is not quite the same thing as Dirac Live (DLBC) actually would optimize phase by looking at different frequencies, not just one. We don't know exactly how Audyssey does its time alignment so it is possible that they did more than just pick one frequency. Base on my experience, they actually do a better job integrated my full range towers and two dissimilar SVS subs much better than Anthem ARCG that has full phase optimization like DLBC.

That's why I still have hope that it is the way you use the 4 subouts that might have made it challenging for Audyssey. If you ask Audyssey the same questions we are discussing, that is, how to connect the 4 subouts to your 4 subwoofers the way they are placed, you will get an answer without 48 hours, likely 24 hours.

I'm actually not complaining about the bass I have now, after REW-mediated boosting of the Audyssey calibration curve. It's full with excellent definition, drum kicks/hits and acoustic bass lines are to die for. But apparently you guys think it could be better.

I don't know about HD and William, but I am very confident that "it could be better" in terms of getting smoother, flatter, and more extended low bass. In terms of "better" as you perceived it is a subjective matter, so it is entirely possible that what you have now is already the best or very close to the best possible, to your ears.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I get that, the advantage of four pre-outs for 4 subs distributed around the room.

Just to be sure, so you are getting 4 individual chirps during the initial time alignment process and during calibration?

 

[Paul McNeil]

I agree with HD and William, and I think if you use the stacked Klipsch subs as one group and the two SVS as two group such that subout1 and subout2 for the two SVS subs, and subout3 for the Klipsch stack, Audyssey will have better time integrating them.

Audyssey does not do phase optimization, but time alignment only. It is not quite the same thing as Dirac Live (DLBC) actually would optimize phase by looking at different frequencies, not just one. We don't know exactly how Audyssey does its time alignment so it is possible that they did more than just pick one frequency. Base on my experience, they actually do a better job integrated my full range towers and two dissimilar SVS subs much better than Anthem ARCG that has full phase optimization like DLBC.

That's why I still have hope that it is the way you use the 4 subouts that might have made it challenging for Audyssey. If you ask Audyssey the same questions we are discussing, that is, how to connect the 4 subouts to your 4 subwoofers the way they are placed, you will get an answer without 48 hours, likely 24 hours.



I don't know about HD and William, but I am very confident that "it could be better" in terms of getting smoother, flatter, and more extended low bass. In terms of "better" as you perceived it is a subjective matter, so it is entirely possible that what you have now is already the best or very close to the best possible, to your ears.

Yeah, this is how I had it set up on my 8802A Marantz, with THE two subwoofer outs. I did then have to adjust the bass after Audy equalization, using REW, but not by +12 dB!

I will give this a try, two subs, all SVS and all Klipsch. They clearly supplement each other (see my most recent REW curve).

Maybe or maybe not, it is important the on the AV10 the four subs option, selected, shows a picture of four subs, two in front and two in back. There are not options I am aware of for modifying, if meaningful, this arrangement reproduced in the pic of the speaker set-up.

Of course, getting the Marantz AV10 I thought, might as well utilize what is there. And the Klipsch are passive subs on separate amps, so I thought why not let Audyssey adjust their volumes...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

OK, I think this is what you were interested in. Note the SVS has a 6dB boost at 25 htz, that I set via a phone app for these subs. I was attempting to get a bit more at the lower end, and did...

Too much smoothing on this but still helpful. Maybe a no smoothing one?
@PENG. any thoughts on the trough of the svs only sweep?
The downward trend from 100 down to 20 is odd. Thinking cap, on.

I agree with the thought of using what you’ve got as far as the AVR and audyssey. But I’m wondering if there’s some built in attenuation by using the four outputs.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Just to be sure, so you are getting 4 individual chirps during the initial time alignment process and during calibration?

Yep, four chips, and four subwoofer sounds, plus and combined (much louder). Then Audyssey is measuring the combined for the next 5 measurements.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Too much smoothing on this but still helpful. Maybe a no smoothing one?
@PENG. any thoughts on the trough of the svs only sweep?
The downward trend from 100 down to 20 is odd. Thinking cap, on.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Less smoothing...

 

[Paul McNeil]

Less smoothing...

Didn't want anyone to see something too ugly.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Didn't want anyone to see something too ugly.

lol. I hear ya. But that’s how we see what’s really happening.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Less smoothing...

Do you have an spl meter? If not you can use the one in rew.
I’m curious here. According to this, the Klipsch set is dramatically lower than the svs set. Have you level matched each group before setting the green bar in audyssey? For example I use three subs. Each one individually is set to about 68db per spl meter. (iirc). Then the cumulative value is about 75. That gives audyssey an equal baseline for each one. Per your graph here, I think it looks like the Klipsch set needs more spl before calibration. So maybe it’s something like audyssey is having an internal conflict in trying to resolve the two sets of spl. I would think you’d see it in the trim values but using all four outputs to two collocated sets of subs is odd and there’s probably not a precedent for it in the software. Maybe I’m an idiot! lol

 

[PENG]

Too much smoothing on this but still helpful. Maybe a no smoothing one?
@PENG. any thoughts on the trough of the svs only sweep?
The downward trend from 100 down to 20 is odd. Thinking cap, on.

I agree with the thought of using what you’ve got as far as the AVR and audyssey. But I’m wondering if there’s some built in attenuation by using the four outputs.

I don't know, but if he wants to get to the bottom of it he can do it, using REW. It would probably take hours though, to plot a bunch of graphs, say at least a dozen, likely more. I have no right to ask him to spend so much time on it especially he indicated he like how it sounds as it is already. If I have such puzzling graphs, I would not stop until I get it solved, even if it will take me days running REW to troubleshoot and then try various things with the Editor app.

Looking from 20,000 ft level, given the information we have now, it does point to some sort of cancellation (not phase reversal) among the 4 subs and the very deep bass capable Revel F226Be. With XO 80 Hz, they could still interact with the subs. Audyssey should be able to integrate them reasonably well, the fact that it ended up with that trough/dip, indicates to me it has to do with his setup. RC, whether is it Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem, even Trinnov, there is only so much they can do.

From ASR:
You can see that they have excellent extension down to 35 Hz, could be much more so in-room.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Do you have an spl meter? If not you can use the one in rew.
I’m curious here. According to this, the Klipsch set is dramatically lower than the svs set. Have you level matched each group before setting the green bar in audyssey? For example I use three subs. Each one individually is set to about 68db per spl meter. (iirc). Then the cumulative value is about 75. That gives audyssey an equal baseline for each one. Per your graph here, I think it looks like the Klipsch set needs more spl before calibration. So maybe it’s something like audyssey is having an internal conflict in trying to resolve the two sets of spl. I would think you’d see it in the trim values but using all four outputs to two collocated sets of subs is odd and there’s probably not a precedent for it in the software. Maybe I’m an idiot! lol

In all calibrations I was a good boy, and set the subs in the 'green zone', middle territory.
But what, at this point, Audyssey does not know, after the individual sub level settings (all in green zone), is that those three Klipsch are stacked in a corner (and the gain from stacking three subs in like this is big). BUT, then Audyssey makes an all subs measurement, and does it again six times. So, it can't be fooled, or can it?

 

[Paul McNeil]

In all calibrations I was a good boy, and set the subs in the 'green zone', middle territory.

But, at this point, what Audyssey does not know, after I placed all of the individual sub level settings in green zone, is that those three Klipsch are stacked in a corner (and the gain from stacking three subs like this is big). BUT, then Audyssey makes an ALL subs measurement, and does it again six times. So it knows the level of all subs operating, and it can't be fooled, or can it?

I think I have to go back to my 8802A set-up, two subs, SVS in one corner and Klipsch in the other. Wow, and this AV10 was $7000. But this is a small gripe, the sound from the AV10 excels, beyond the AV8802, in treble and midrange clarity, and bass definition (anyone can get boom). And images in surround are sometime downright startling, Here's the bottom line, I have turned UP the volume, and no complaints from my wife, the ultimate audioholic.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

In all calibrations I was a good boy, and set the subs in the 'green zone', middle territory.
But what, at this point, Audyssey does not know, after the individual sub level settings (all in green zone), is that those three Klipsch are stacked in a corner (and the gain from stacking three subs in like this is big). BUT, then Audyssey makes an all subs measurement, and does it again six times. So, it can't be fooled, or can it?

Well even a 150k Ferrari can be crippled by using it wrong lol.
Im not saying you’re using the AVR wrong. I’m speculating here just trying to figure this out. I would expect at least a flat sweep as opposed to a downward trend toward deep bass. Especially since the PC ultra is a capable albeit dated subwoofer. I’m still not sure which Klipsch you have. I think you said spl120 but those are self powered and not thx. So…
As peng said, it’s a lot to ask. But I have done this long enough to know. Sometimes you don’t know, what you don’t know.


So. IMO, you should go back to the old connection setup, and redo it. I would also strong recommend matching the output of each group of subs before putting them in the green.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I don't know, but if he wants to get to the bottom of it he can do it, using REW. It would probably take hours though, to plot a bunch of graphs, say at least a dozen, likely more. I have no right to ask him to spend so much time on it especially he indicated he like how it sounds as it is already. If I have such puzzling graphs, I would not stop until I get it solved, even if it will take me days running REW to troubleshoot and then try various things with the Editor app.

Looking from 20,000 ft level, given the information we have now, it does point to some sort of cancellation (not phase reversal) among the 4 subs and the very deep bass capable Revel F226Be. With XO 80 Hz, they could still interact with the subs. Audyssey should be able to integrate them reasonably well, the fact that it ended up with that trough/dip, indicates to me it has to do with his setup. RC, whether is it Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem, even Trinnov, there is only so much they can do.

From ASR:
You can see that they have excellent extension down to 35 Hz, could be much more so in-room.

View attachment 66163

I agree. It doesn’t seem like a phase cancellation that would normally be narrow. The new one he posted shows a wide depression that makes me think it’s a level issue. Although the sweeps are surprisingly similar in shape

 

[Paul McNeil]

Well even a 150k Ferrari can be crippled by using it wrong lol.
Im not saying you’re using the AVR wrong. I’m speculating here just trying to figure this out. I would expect at least a flat sweep as opposed to a downward trend toward deep bass. Especially since the PC ultra is a capable albeit dated subwoofer. I’m still not sure which Klipsch you have. I think you said spl120 but those are self powered and not thx. So…
As peng said, it’s a lot to ask. But I have done this long enough to know. Sometimes you don’t know, what you don’t know.


So. IMO, you should go back to the old connection setup, and redo it. I would also strong recommend matching the output of each group of subs before putting them in the green.

Yep, I probably put water into the oil compartment, of this AV10 Ferrari.

Both of these subwoofers are capable (see the last curve, or disagree with me), even in this very large room with a wide (two-door) opening in the back, to the rest of the large house. For the Klipsch, see this...https://www.soundandvision.com/compactspeakers/1204klipsch

Thanks for your help, much appreciated, I'm confused to.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep, I probably put water into the oil compartment, of this AV10 Ferrari.

Both of these subwoofers are capable (see the last curve, or disagree with me), even in this very large room with a wide (two-door) opening in the back, to the rest of the large house. For the Klipsch, see this...https://www.soundandvision.com/compactspeakers/1204klipsch

Thanks for your help, much appreciated, I'm confused to.

So I’m gonna try later to make some sense…..
Quickly though, S&V measured the Klipsch having an f3 at 22hz and f6 at 20. That’s pretty typical for subs around that era. Combined they probably have more midbass capability than the PC’s, but those pc’s are much more capable of deep bass. I’m pretty sure there’s some phase issues around the tunings of each sub, but I think it would show up differently. So imo, let’s try and get the downward slope figured out first. If I were in this situation and had any budget, I’d sell all five subs, and buy two newer ones. Integration would be much simpler, and imo overall performance would be improved. However, working with what we’ve got is sometimes what we’ve got.
And I’m definitely glad to help. I just hope that I am!!! lol. @PENG and @shadyJ are smarter than I am in this area, as one has spent countless hours integrating his five subs(iirc) and the other is the resident speaker/subwoofer reviewer. I’ve been using rew since about 2014 so I’m just smart enough to be dangerous.

 

[PENG]

Setting the sub level in green zone is not the best. It should not cause the kind of issue you are facing. For better results, I always set them in the first quarter within the red zone, such that I would end up with sub trim levels in the -6 to -1 range, never in the plus range. It is better to have headroom for less distortions anyway. Again, green zone is fine per instructions by Audyssey, just not the best, not for advanced users, I guess lol...