Marantz Cinema 30 AVR to Replace the SR8015

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those monoprice amps are not Monolith and don't have as good noise and distortion as the internal amps of the Cinema 30. The 7706 preamp is not as good as what's in the Cinema 30. I would not go this route as an alternative to the Cinema 30.

Gene, for some people, it doesn’t matter what the AVP and amps are. As long as they are labeled “AVP” and “amps” and not labeled “AVR”, the AVP/amps will automatically sound better.

That’s how they think.

 

[lovinthehd]

Gene, for some people, it doesn’t matter what the AVP and amps are. As long as they are labeled “AVP” and “amps” and not labeled “AVR”, the AVP/amps will automatically sound better.

That’s how they think.

Gosh am having a hard time wondering who around here might espouse that....

 

[TLS Guy]

Those monoprice amps are not Monolith and don't have as good noise and distortion as the internal amps of the Cinema 30. The 7706 preamp is not as good as what's in the Cinema 30. I would not go this route as an alternative to the Cinema 30.

That's only half of the point. The real question is which one will blow up first. It only takes one amp board in the Cinema 30 to get a shorted power transistor and the whole rig is down.

Whereas in my system with my Quads, if one amp goes down, I have spare ready to go while I fix the amp that is down if it does.

I honestly think the whole receiver concept is absurd, and would never consider owning one for an instant.

I would say we don't look to reliability nearly enough. A system down is more than just one bad day.

In fact, I think this is my biggest criticism of this forum that we don't talk reliability of the architecture and equipment selection enough. For me it is a top consideration.

 

[TLS Guy]

Gene, for some people, it doesn’t matter what the AVP and amps are. As long as they are labeled “AVP” and “amps” and not labeled “AVR”, the AVP/amps will automatically sound better.

That’s how they think.

Reliability, reliability and reliability. But in my case a receiver could not drive the system so it is a non starter.

 

[TLS Guy]

Why the low power monolith amps, tho? Seems only avr level amps.

Reliability is the issue, the power difference is inconsequential, and there is no channel power loss if all channels are driven. The AVP/power amp, I would bet would be much more dynamic at full concert spl.

I will state for the record, that I would absolutely rule out and device with a power rating with only two channels driven. By definition that is an undersized power supply, and I would never accept that. That is BAD engineering, and I will never change my view about that.

 

[TLS Guy]

Those monoprice amps are not Monolith and don't have as good noise and distortion as the internal amps of the Cinema 30. The 7706 preamp is not as good as what's in the Cinema 30. I would not go this route as an alternative to the Cinema 30.

Those differences won't be audible. It comes down to reliability, and the whole receiver concepts is not a concept that gives any confidence of reliability.

I actually think the outlier is the 7706. That hasn't tested well by anyone and offers much less functionality and features but costs north of $3K. I also bet we learn that the 30's amps are as good as/better than the 8015 and much better than the Monolith, which are no slight. They give great value for what they are. For me, great value and functionality would be the Monolith HTP-1 with some of their class D amps hidden away in a rack. But on my credenza next to my Technics turntable, I'll go Marantz 99 out of 100 times. But that's me.

I have had the 7705 in use for over 4 years now and it is excellent, reliable and stable. It measures very well also on my bench.

 

[TLS Guy]

Gene, for some people, it doesn’t matter what the AVP and amps are. As long as they are labeled “AVP” and “amps” and not labeled “AVR”, the AVP/amps will automatically sound better.

That’s how they think.

That is not the point. An AVP gives you many added system design options. For one thing my variable BSC is a game changer. That makes a huge audible difference. The BSC setting in my new room compared to the last room are very different. When you operate the control you can see its effects right on the computer screen from the measuring mic in real time. That is possible because of active crossovers and would not be possible with passive.

 

[gene]

Thanks for the details, but does the same sort of thing apply to the units in question?

Yes, same type of upgrades

 

[gene]

Those differences won't be audible. It comes down to reliability, and the whole receiver concepts is not a concept that gives any confidence of reliability.


I have had the 7705 in use for over 4 years now and it is excellent, reliable and stable. It measures very well also on my bench.

I bench tested the monoprice amps in question and the Marantz amps. I'd take the Marantz all day long and twice on Tuesday. The 7705 is a mediocre processor, sorry to say. It's a mid-priced receiver without the amp section. The Cinema 30 is more akin to the AV 10. NO contest. The Cinema 30 is the better solution and it's in one box instead of 4 like you propose.

As for reliability, I'd take a Marantz receiver made in Japan any day over the cheapest tonewinner clone Chinese made amp. The Marantz will still be working good as new 5 years later. Can't guarantee that with the Monoprice.

 

[cardsdoc]

Here are the upgrades from last generation products which carries over to the current ones as well.

Marantz SR8012 Advantages over the Denon AVR-X6500H:

• HDAM SA2 current feedback topology between preamp and power amp
• 22,000uF, 81V capacitors x 2 vs 15,000uF, 73V capacitors (X-6500H)
• Torodial 835VA transformer vs 750VA E-Core (X-6500H)
• Separated symmetric construction vs single in-line (X6500H)
• Copper plated chassis
• More rigid top cover
• Teflon tape on oscillator circuit for better damping

Thanks again. Good to have this info. While I could imagine some of these upgrades may lead to some measured differences do you think any of these would lead to any audible differences?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, same type of upgrades

Meant specifics....not a generality.

 

[gene]

Meant specifics....not a generality.

Look at the upgrades from old models I listed. You can see similar upgrades in components on new models (ie. Bigger power supply, better DACs, etc). I will eventually do a livestream with Masimo to discuss as well.

 

[lovinthehd]

Look at the upgrades from old models I listed. You can see similar upgrades in components on new models (ie. Bigger power supply, better DACs, etc). I will eventually do a livestream with Masimo to discuss as well.

Am more interested in the specifics of any technical/specific changes in the models mentioned. What specific upgrades are you referring to?

 

[gene]

That's only half of the point. The real question is which one will blow up first. It only takes one amp board in the Cinema 30 to get a shorted power transistor and the whole rig is down.

Whereas in my system with my Quads, if one amp goes down, I have spare ready to go while I fix the amp that is down if it does.

I honestly think the whole receiver concept is absurd, and would never consider owning one for an instant.

I would say we don't look to reliability nearly enough. A system down is more than just one bad day.

In fact, I think this is my biggest criticism of this forum that we don't talk reliability of the architecture and equipment selection enough. For me it is a top consideration.

Budget amps typically don't last very long. Every Emotiva amp I've reviewed or owned never lived longer than the warranty period. Meanwhile I've had Yamaha and Denon receivers last 10+ years. My mom's old Yamaha receiver bought in 1998 was handed down to my brother and it still goes strong today.

 

[gene]

Am more interested in the specifics of any technical/specific changes in the models mentioned. What specific upgrades are you referring to?

Post #19 lists the upgrades going from Denon to Marantz from last generation which follows through for this generation as well.

 

[TLS Guy]

I bench tested the monoprice amps in question and the Marantz amps. I'd take the Marantz all day long and twice on Tuesday. The 7705 is a mediocre processor, sorry to say. It's a mid-priced receiver without the amp section. The Cinema 30 is more akin to the AV 10. NO contest. The Cinema 30 is the better solution and it's in one box instead of 4 like you propose.

As for reliability, I'd take a Marantz receiver made in Japan any day over the cheapest tonewinner clone Chinese made amp. The Marantz will still be working good as new 5 years later. Can't guarantee that with the Monoprice.

The statistical odds are against the receiver and the more amps you add the higher the chance of failure. One shorted power transistor and your whole rig is down. The AVP and power amps diversifies the risk.

Anyhow the 7705 was pretty much the only show in town with that many channels four and a half years ago. The firmware upgrades improved it promptly. SNR was improved, and I think by a change in gain structure. In any event I have no complaint against it and it drives my rig very well. I have to use an AVP as an AVR could not work in my system. I'm not one to suffer from upgradeitis and keep and use gear over very long periods of time, like sixty years.
I have zero tolerance for replacement cycles.

I agree those monoprice amps could be a bit cheap and cheerful. I use Quad amps from the Peter Walker era. He was a fanatic for performance and reliability. We need people of his outlook in the industry today, but they are sadly lacking. He never hired a marketer and loathed the breed.

 

[gene]

The statistical odds are against the receiver and the more amps you add the higher the chance of failure. One shorted power transistor and your whole rig is down. The AVP and power amps diversifies the risk.

Anyhow the 7705 was pretty much the only show in town with that many channels four and a half years ago. The firmware upgrades improved it promptly. SNR was improved, and I think by a change in gain structure. In any event I have no complaint against it and it drives my rig very well. I have to use an AVP as an AVR could not work in my system. I'm not one to suffer from upgradeitis and keep and use gear over very long periods of time, like sixty years.
I have zero tolerance for replacement cycles.

I agree those monoprice amps could be a bit cheap and cheerful. I use Quad amps from the Peter Walker era. He was a fanatic for performance and reliability. We need people of his outlook in the industry today, but they are sadly lacking. He never hired a marketer and loathed the breed.

I haven't tested the AV7706 and I'd imagine it's an improvement over the AV7705 that was first released. I would suggest pairing the AV7706 with a Monolith 11x or a couple of Outlaw amps but your taking up more rack space and spending significantly more than the one box solution. That said 2 of 3 of my home theater systems are running separates now but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a flagship AVR made in Japan based on my experience.

 

[gene]

Thanks again. Good to have this info. While I could imagine some of these upgrades may lead to some measured differences do you think any of these would lead to any audible differences?

Yes I do. The power section especially if your driving low impedance speakers. If you're using it solely as a preamp, then get the 6800h and out the money saved towards some good amplification.

 

[nicoleise]

@gene - difficult to tell from the picture (gets too blurry when zoomed) but you probably know the answer: Are all 13 decoded channels available as preouts? And is it possible to disable amps in the settings? I would assume so.

If so, then couldn't you essentially use this as an AVP (lower price version of AV10) whilst mainly "just" loosing out on 2 Ch of decoding and XLR/balanced pre outs?

I ask because it would allow a manageable upgrade path from AVR systems to AVP systems, if that is desirable, by using the AV30 as an AVR at first and eventually adding separate power amplifiers and configure the AV30 to essentially work as an AVP. And then, come next inevitable upgrade (decoder, new formats, new HDMI standards, whatever) you're left with a modular system in which you're not throwing a bunch of good power amps in the bin just because HDMI 3.6 and Dolby BaDingDong (likely name for an Atmos successor, right?) comes along.

To me, that is the benefit of a modular system. Suggesting you can use higher quality devices because they're not made obsolete by something that isn't really relevant to them, but just happen to "live" in the same box. I know there's supposedly other "big advantages" of separates (in terms of audio quality), but I haven't really looked into that enough to form my own opinion yet. (I often read about it where phrases such as "unmasking the sound" and "it's like a veil is lifted" is used, and in my mind phrases like these are often unreliable at best)

Now if only AVPs weren't so much more expensive than AVRs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Budget amps typically don't last very long. Every Emotiva amp I've reviewed or owned never lived longer than the warranty period. Meanwhile I've had Yamaha and Denon receivers last 10+ years. My mom's old Yamaha receiver bought in 1998 was handed down to my brother and it still goes strong today.

Yeah, all the AVRs that I’ve bought BRAND NEW never had a malfunction. I either sold them or gave them away to family.