Looking to buy a NEW YAMAHA R-S700. I know it's been discontinued.

[highfigh]

Most of it works just fine and selling stuff is a hassle. Now if they could breed, that could save some cash!

At this point, especially with one of the few places who has serviced electronics closing soon, I don't want anything with complex design. I'm not going to ship something that's heavy unless I'm selling it and getting a good price but won't do it to have it serviced. I know people who can repair electronics, but the physical distance between us makes it very impractical. I'm trying to sell off my accumulated AV stuff and nobody wants it, even for $50. If it takes too long, I'll probably donate most of it and I can guarantee that as soon as I remove the ads online, people will contact me to say "Well, if you were donating everything, I would have taken it".

 

[TLS Guy]

At this point, especially with one of the few places who has serviced electronics closing soon, I don't want anything with complex design. I'm not going to ship something that's heavy unless I'm selling it and getting a good price but won't do it to have it serviced. I know people who can repair electronics, but the physical distance between us makes it very impractical. I'm trying to sell off my accumulated AV stuff and nobody wants it, even for $50. If it takes too long, I'll probably donate most of it and I can guarantee that as soon as I remove the ads online, people will contact me to say "Well, if you were donating everything, I would have taken it".

My AV gear is pretty much confined to AVPs, disc players and TVs. Most of the rest I can service.

I agree service is an issue, as I put in my thread about serving that Sonos contraption. I still have not got the part yet. The major players do not have good parts availability and make it hard for any service center to operate. This is an absolute disgrace and will end home AV. That is shame as it can bring so much pleasure.

You can't blame people for not taking a risk on used AV equipment. It is a different story with good vintage gear, the good stuff creates a bidding frenzy and there are lessons there.

The whole AV infrastructure has headed way off the rails.

A big part of the blame has to go to the ascendancy of the AV receiver, which actually is a horrible idea. I know few here agree with me, but it's true.
The system needs simplifying with a concentration in two and three channel systems with amps external in the speakers or otherwise. There needs to be easy access for service, not contraptions where you have to spend a day or two to get to the part that needs service.

I can tell you that if I was in charge at Denon/Marantz division things would change in one H of a hurry.

People just put up with it, because that is the "way it is". Well, the way it is, is lousy, and a rip off.

 

[JCanada]

Suum cuique ... I more accumulate than collect.

Accumulate....You might be right on that one....

 

[MrBoat]

Suum cuique ... I more accumulate than collect.

Same. And this from someone who tends to get every bit out of a system beyond what the manufacturer hoped I would/could.

 

[highfigh]

My AV gear is pretty much confined to AVPs, disc players and TVs. Most of the rest I can service.

I agree service is an issue, as I put in my thread about serving that Sonos contraption. I still have not got the part yet. The major players do not have good parts availability and make it hard for any service center to operate. This is an absolute disgrace and will end home AV. That is shame as it can bring so much pleasure.

You can't blame people for not taking a risk on used AV equipment. It is a different story with good vintage gear, the good stuff creates a bidding frenzy and there are lessons there.

The whole AV infrastructure has headed way off the rails.

A big part of the blame has to go to the ascendancy of the AV receiver, which actually is a horrible idea. I know few here agree with me, but it's true.
The system needs simplifying with a concentration in two and three channel systems with amps external in the speakers or otherwise. There needs to be easy access for service, not contraptions where you have to spend a day or two to get to the part that needs service.

I can tell you that if I was in charge at Denon/Marantz division things would change in one H of a hurry.

People just put up with it, because that is the "way it is". Well, the way it is, is lousy, and a rip off.

The changes to manufacturer technical/repair service started to change when CD-Roms made it possible to stop creating paper documents, which saved them millions of dollars because they no longer needed to pay the cost to ship these. the internet became usable to most people and businesses- first, they stopped regional service training sessions, replaced by video conferencing/webinars. The next nail in the coffin was the low warranty payments for labor to the servicing dealers although a regional/state repair shop could make money if they ran it well- the place that is closing here was the only authorized WI service shop for Yamaha, they had been the place where most non-big box stores took their equipment for repairs and they had their own clientele. They started as a TV store/repair shop and became the SE WI shop for LG but recently, he has stopped dealing with them because they weren't paying for replaced parts or labor, delaying payments and not even communicating. Not more than a year ago, I had asked which TV brands he preferred WRT reliability/long life and he said it was LG because they communicated well and were more reliable than Samsung- how quickly things change.....

Another place that doesn't do as much service for manufacturers left Chicago because it was too expensive to stay, he didn't feel safe and didn't want to force his employees to go to the facility because of the problems with crime and safety- it had changed a lot over the years, not in good ways. They were authorized by many electronic manufacturers and it prevented shipping the equipment all the way across the country- not so much, now.

There aren't enough people learning about electronics as a way to 'have a nice job'- they're heading toward industrial/military/commercial electronics because they can make a lot more money- people used to get into AV repair by going to a tech school for a 2 year course in TV/Radio repair but that wouldn't cover the weird stuff in these boxes because so much of it is digital. They often went for that program because they would get out of school sooner than getting an actual degree.

WRT Cars, when people couldn't answer questions in the past- they might say "I'm going to learn about this" but now, they say "I don't know" and complain that everything is becoming too difficult to understand and repair. Since the beginning of sensors and fuel injection and all I have heard is "Shade tree mechanics can't fix this stuff"- well, these vehicles are required to meet pollution limits and a simple system with a carburetor isn't going to do it reliably for a long time.

Technology development is a very efficient method of weeding out the people who might have been able to perform many tasks, but if they don't want to learn, they'll be flipping burgers. I have posted that the beginning of the glut of MBA grads in the late-'70s/early-'80s was the start of companies providing less- great for the bottom line, bad for consumers. Trade practices and international competition with currency manipulation have caused problems that the politicians don't care about because they can say things like "We just signed a huge agreement with _________ and it's going to be great for the people".

You could want to make those changes but it wouldn't happen. D+M are owned by a private equity company and its Sound United subsidiary also owns Onkyo/Integra and Pioneer/Pioneer Elite-

Home

The new owner is 'Sound United', a division of DEI Holdings, a US private equity firm.

www.whathifi.com

Denon parent Sound United now owns Pioneer and Onkyo home audio

The audio world just got noticeably smaller. Sound United, the parent company for brands like Denon, Polk Audio and Marantz, has reached a deal to buy Onkyo's home audio division, including everything from smart speakers to receivers and turntables. Crucially, that gives it control of the...

www.engadget.com

 

[highfigh]

Same. And this from someone who tends to get every bit out of a system beyond what the manufacturer hoped I would/could.

The stereo receivers I mentioned before were 15-20 years old when I bought them, used. My turntable and one pair of speakers are more than 40 years old and I have never been one to churn the equipment because most of the time, the difference doesn't interest me.

 

[TLS Guy]

The changes to manufacturer technical/repair service started to change when CD-Roms made it possible to stop creating paper documents, which saved them millions of dollars because they no longer needed to pay the cost to ship these. the internet became usable to most people and businesses- first, they stopped regional service training sessions, replaced by video conferencing/webinars. The next nail in the coffin was the low warranty payments for labor to the servicing dealers although a regional/state repair shop could make money if they ran it well- the place that is closing here was the only authorized WI service shop for Yamaha, they had been the place where most non-big box stores took their equipment for repairs and they had their own clientele. They started as a TV store/repair shop and became the SE WI shop for LG but recently, he has stopped dealing with them because they weren't paying for replaced parts or labor, delaying payments and not even communicating. Not more than a year ago, I had asked which TV brands he preferred WRT reliability/long life and he said it was LG because they communicated well and were more reliable than Samsung- how quickly things change.....

Another place that doesn't do as much service for manufacturers left Chicago because it was too expensive to stay, he didn't feel safe and didn't want to force his employees to go to the facility because of the problems with crime and safety- it had changed a lot over the years, not in good ways. They were authorized by many electronic manufacturers and it prevented shipping the equipment all the way across the country- not so much, now.

There aren't enough people learning about electronics as a way to 'have a nice job'- they're heading toward industrial/military/commercial electronics because they can make a lot more money- people used to get into AV repair by going to a tech school for a 2 year course in TV/Radio repair but that wouldn't cover the weird stuff in these boxes because so much of it is digital. They often went for that program because they would get out of school sooner than getting an actual degree.

WRT Cars, when people couldn't answer questions in the past- they might say "I'm going to learn about this" but now, they say "I don't know" and complain that everything is becoming too difficult to understand and repair. Since the beginning of sensors and fuel injection and all I have heard is "Shade tree mechanics can't fix this stuff"- well, these vehicles are required to meet pollution limits and a simple system with a carburetor isn't going to do it reliably for a long time.

Technology development is a very efficient method of weeding out the people who might have been able to perform many tasks, but if they don't want to learn, they'll be flipping burgers. I have posted that the beginning of the glut of MBA grads in the late-'70s/early-'80s was the start of companies providing less- great for the bottom line, bad for consumers. Trade practices and international competition with currency manipulation have caused problems that the politicians don't care about because they can say things like "We just signed a huge agreement with _________ and it's going to be great for the people".

You could want to make those changes but it wouldn't happen. D+M are owned by a private equity company and its Sound United subsidiary also owns Onkyo/Integra and Pioneer/Pioneer Elite-

Home

The new owner is 'Sound United', a division of DEI Holdings, a US private equity firm.

www.whathifi.com

Denon parent Sound United now owns Pioneer and Onkyo home audio

The audio world just got noticeably smaller. Sound United, the parent company for brands like Denon, Polk Audio and Marantz, has reached a deal to buy Onkyo's home audio division, including everything from smart speakers to receivers and turntables. Crucially, that gives it control of the...

www.engadget.com

As you know I have been criticizing the audio manufacturers for this appalling problem for years.

Cars have to have diagnostic ports accessible to all. Electronic equipment should also. There should be a diagnostic port on the back to connect a scanner to.

The next issue is that the internal architecture of modern equipment is for the most part appalling. Disassembly and reassembly is just a nightmare, unacceptable and just plain awful design. Things need to be modular, with slide in and out modules. There needs to be some standardization here. There is absolutely no need for repair and service to be next to impossible. It is just awful design that is the problem.

As I say if I were are Denon Marantz there would be some major ass kicking day one, and things made to change in a hurry.

 

[3db]

As you know I have been criticizing the audio manufacturers for this appalling problem for years.

Cars have to have diagnostic ports accessible to all. Electronic equipment should also. There should be a diagnostic port on the back to connect a scanner to.

The next issue is that the internal architecture of modern equipment is for the most part appalling. Disassembly and reassembly is just a nightmare, unacceptable and just plain awful design. Things need to be modular, with slide in and out modules. There needs to be some standardization here. There is absolutely no need for repair and service to be next to impossible. It is just awful design that is the problem.

As I say if I were are Denon Marantz there would be some major ass kicking day one, and things made to change in a hurry.

Welcome for profit manufacturing only. Its everywhere. No longer are things made to be repairable. We live in a throw away society and our landfills and environment are taking a beating for it. We only have ourselves to blame.

 

[JCanada]

Same. And this from someone who tends to get every bit out of a system beyond what the manufacturer hoped I would/could.

Agreed.

 

[3db]

Same. And this from someone who tends to get every bit out of a system beyond what the manufacturer hoped I would/could.

I have 9 fully functional cassette decks and one in the shop getting fixed.

 

[highfigh]

As you know I have been criticizing the audio manufacturers for this appalling problem for years.

Cars have to have diagnostic ports accessible to all. Electronic equipment should also. There should be a diagnostic port on the back to connect a scanner to.

The next issue is that the internal architecture of modern equipment is for the most part appalling. Disassembly and reassembly is just a nightmare, unacceptable and just plain awful design. Things need to be modular, with slide in and out modules. There needs to be some standardization here. There is absolutely no need for repair and service to be next to impossible. It is just awful design that is the problem.

As I say if I were are Denon Marantz there would be some major ass kicking day one, and things made to change in a hurry.

You have seen it from the consumer end- try being in the business and having to explain this crap to people.

Adding a port would add levels of complexity to these- a car's ECM uses a different OS, although mini computers do a good job of shooting down any manufacturer's argument against designing AVRs as if they were a modular computer with source input/output jacks and a way to control it with a remote. The mass market wants convenience- that butts heads with 'making it work reliably, but with a learning curve'.

Also, a car's diagnostic port only tells someone if codes are stored at the most basic level (auto parts store scanner, sometimes called a 'winly-blinky') and once vehicle owners have access to mid and high-level diagnostic equipment, their eyes glaze over because they don't know what the data mean. I'm a member of a ski boat forum and you would be amazed/appalled by the number of people who try to make their boats run better by dragging out the 'parts cannon', replacing parts until it runs (or not), seldom one at a time in a way that would allow them to be certain it was that part which caused the problem. "It runs hot" is often caused by a clogged fresh water strainer or an impeller with no vanes, but that doesn't stop them replacing anything from the ECT or thermostat to injectors and sending the ECM somewhere to be 'reflashed'.

The owners of these >$100K boats that are under warranty wouldn't dream of touching anything under the hood of a $15K used car, but they jump head first into their boats, as if they're really different. They aren't- most sterndrive or inboard boats use GM engines, although I think Ford may have returned to marine production. Ilmor engines are somewhat different WRT some of the accessories. Volvo-Penta, Mercruiser and the rest all use GM engines and the diagnostics are basically the same- 'look at the data, but at least, understand it'. Then, check the physical problems.

However, the marine industry really needs to get their act together- dealers don't want to pay people enough to keep them in far too many cases and they don't always hire people with much knowledge of engines, never mind boats. Dealers often see the industry in a 'feast or famine' way if they're in places where Winter is a factor and I can tell you from first hand experience, even marine mechanics with decades of experience have a hard time diagnosing simple problems. That doesn't stop them from charging $140/hour (or more), though.

 

[highfigh]

Welcome for profit manufacturing only. Its everywhere. No longer are things made to be repairable. We live in a throw away society and our landfills and environment are taking a beating for it. We only have ourselves to blame.

AV equipment that was made to be repairable was in a 'for profit' economy, but competition, technology and economy of scale have made it necessary to squeeze every last billionth of a cent out of the price to make money. In the '70s, nobody would have expected the numbers of products sold to reach the point they have, nor did many think in terms of the world population growing to 8+ billion. In the late-80s, car audio & security were an $8 Billion industry- now Fidget spinners are expected to sell in the $900 million range this year.

People who see no reason to repair because they can easily afford to replace are one reason, marketing is another. It's all learned behavior but we can't expect people to learn to repair this stuff if they can't make a living. Also, teaching Common Core Math hasn't helped anyone learn Math. If people can't make 40 cents change (I experienced this), don't expect them to do higher Math.

 

[j_garcia]

AV equipment that was made to be repairable was in a 'for profit' economy, but competition, technology and economy of scale have made it necessary to squeeze every last billionth of a cent out of the price to make money. In the '70s, nobody would have expected the numbers of products sold to reach the point they have, nor did many think in terms of the world population growing to 8+ billion. In the late-80s, car audio & security were an $8 Billion industry- now Fidget spinners are expected to sell in the $900 million range this year.

People who see no reason to repair because they can easily afford to replace are one reason, marketing is another. It's all learned behavior but we can't expect people to learn to repair this stuff if they can't make a living. Also, teaching Common Core Math hasn't helped anyone learn Math. If people can't make 40 cents change (I experienced this), don't expect them to do higher Math.

I have encountered people who can't make change as well. That's almost more basic than math because the are usually easily learned that you know how much it is without counting the numbers but the coins, though many places don't event take cash anymore.

 

[highfigh]

I have encountered people who can't make change as well. That's almost more basic than math because the are usually easily learned that you know how much it is without counting the numbers but the coins, though many places don't event take cash anymore.

A British comedy show (8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown) has a Math/Science whiz and she mentioned that a kid who learned Math using 'some magic system' couldn't subtract 499 from 500. I went to a bike shop to look for a headset bearing for my old Trek 400 and had forgotten that the bike world uses mostly Metric for dimensions and sizes, so I asked for a 1" bearing. The guy came out from the back room and apologized, saying "We only have 2.54mm- I don't know what that is, in inches". I calmly said "It's one inch".

If the education system doesn't stop worrying about feelings and start teaching useful information, critical thinking and skills, we'll be worse off than a third world country, which is where most things are made. At least uneducated people from small villages can be taught- I'm no longer confident that people who were born in the US after 2000 have the ability to think- it's all feelings, for them. I went to an Asian restaurant for take out and as I sat, an older couple came in with a 30-something guy. EVERY time they asked a question, his answer began with "I feel", followed by a fairly long pause. The questions had nothing to do with feelings.

The high school I attended is undergoing a major overhaul/upgrade and the idiots in the area who can vote were in favor of spending $77.4 million because "They need to have the best", one wrote "The art students don't have enough easels" and another wrote "They can't do fine woodworking without a good wood shop" Someone mentioned that the school needs to provide 200 ft² for each student and my response was "For what, their feelings? When I was there, we had more than 2200 students and we were fine, not the current student population of 1250.". WRT the "They need the best"- we didn't. The shop and Science departments were really good but they didn't have a computer, so they leased time on a Sperry Univac at Globe Union (predecessor to Johnson Controls). This was before PC/Mac and the various operating systems that came with those. After I saw the comment about woodworking, I replied with "Fine woodworking can be done in the middle of a field if someone has some tools and the proper skills" and when I saw the comment about easels, I wrote that this would be a great project for the new drafting and woodworking students- the drafters could make the drawings, the woodworking kids could build them and the art students could use them, giving their feedback. If anything needed to be changed, fine or if they were good, the woodshop kids could build more. Great practical experience but someone posted "You can't work for a school system without being licensed" and my response was "Who said anything about paying them?".