Connecting a S.M.S.L SU-1 DAC to a Pioneer VSX-935 Receiver

[remomoreira]

I bought and received yesterday a S.M.S.L SU-1 DAC, but I can't get it to work in my setup, between a Sony BDP-S6500 Blu Ray Player and a Pioneer VSX-935 Receiver. As the DAC only has one type of output, analog, it must be connected to the receiver's analog input (RCA). The Blu Ray player, in turn, is connected to the DAC via digital input (coaxial cable).

What happens is that the receiver simply does not recognize the DAC; In fact, it does not recognize any device connected other than via HDMI. Just last week I tried to make this same blu ray player work by connecting it to this receiver via digital input (coaxial cable), but the receiver didn't recognize it, which makes me believe that the problem is with it, that it isn't recognizing any connected device other than via HDMI.

I made all the possible settings on the three devices, and I don't know what else to do.

 

[dolynick]

You would need to have the Receiver set to use the coaxial digital input as the source in order to get audio this way. Page 112 of the VSX-935 manual talks about assigning a digital output type via the on-screen menu:

If you're doing an analog signal form the external DAC, you'd have to select the corresponding analog input instead. Usually the same as labelled on the rear input, as I doubt this model supports re-assignment.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's little point to an external dac in the first place...particularly if you use any dsp in the avr. As dolynick points out you need to address input assignment....

 

[Trebdp83]

Wasn’t me. But, since I’m here. The Pioneer can reassign just about any of the ports. But, wanting the video signal of the BD/DVD HDMI #1 port from the player in combo with the BD/DVD #1 Analog port audio signal of the external DAC means changing the audio port used as @dolynick mentioned. To do so, select BD/DVD as the source device and go to Setup>Source>Audio Select and change it from HDMI to Analog.

As @lovinthehd mentioned, no point in using external DAC and any DSP in the receiver. If in Pure Direct or Direct mode, no big deal, but any other mode will result in ADC for bass management and then another DAC for output to speakers. This is where a DAC with a sub pre out connected to a receiver with 7.1 analog input ports comes in handy if one wants to compare the two of them.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wasn’t me. But, since I’m here. The Pioneer can reassign just about any of the ports. But, wanting the video signal of the BD/DVD HDMI #1 port from the player in combo with the BD/DVD #1 Analog port audio signal of the external DAC means changing the audio port used as @dolynick mentioned. To do so, select BD/DVD as the source device and go to Setup>Source>Audio Select and change it from HDMI to Analog.

As @lovinthehd mentioned, no point in using external DAC and any DSP in the receiver. If in Pure Direct or Direct mode, no big deal, but any other mode will result in ADC for bass management and then another DAC for output to speakers. This is where a DAC with a sub pre out connected to a receiver with 7.1 analog input ports comes in handy if one wants to compare the two of them.

LOL the big green square got me, fixed already.

 

[TLS Guy]

I bought and received yesterday a S.M.S.L SU-1 DAC, but I can't get it to work in my setup, between a Sony BDP-S6500 Blu Ray Player and a Pioneer VSX-935 Receiver. As the DAC only has one type of output, analog, it must be connected to the receiver's analog input (RCA). The Blu Ray player, in turn, is connected to the DAC via digital input (coaxial cable).

What happens is that the receiver simply does not recognize the DAC; In fact, it does not recognize any device connected other than via HDMI. Just last week I tried to make this same blu ray player work by connecting it to this receiver via digital input (coaxial cable), but the receiver didn't recognize it, which makes me believe that the problem is with it, that it isn't recognizing any connected device other than via HDMI.

I made all the possible settings on the three devices, and I don't know what else to do.

Your big mistake was buying a DAC you don't need. Who was the 'twot' who persuaded you that was a sensible purchase?

 

[PENG]

I bought and received yesterday a S.M.S.L SU-1 DAC, but I can't get it to work in my setup, between a Sony BDP-S6500 Blu Ray Player and a Pioneer VSX-935 Receiver. As the DAC only has one type of output, analog, it must be connected to the receiver's analog input (RCA). The Blu Ray player, in turn, is connected to the DAC via digital input (coaxial cable).

What happens is that the receiver simply does not recognize the DAC; In fact, it does not recognize any device connected other than via HDMI. Just last week I tried to make this same blu ray player work by connecting it to this receiver via digital input (coaxial cable), but the receiver didn't recognize it, which makes me believe that the problem is with it, that it isn't recognizing any connected device other than via HDMI.

I made all the possible settings on the three devices, and I don't know what else to do.

As others mentioned, it is a matter of assigning the inputs properly and you should be good to go. Also mentioned by others seem to be about the need of this $80 DAC.

For $80 (even if doubled that), I would say it is worth it if you use it with your PC, running macOS or windows, and use the USB input. That way, you can play just about any file formats under the sun, including DSD512 (apparently), this cheap thing can even decode the stupid MQA that hasn't survived too long, despite the much raved sound quality by many semi to full blown audiophiles.

The SU-1 does offer superior performance, in terms of transparency, vs the internal dac of the Pioneer. I don't know which dac chip the Pioneer uses, but typically, if they used a half decent one they would identify it in their marketing material. Since they simply refer it as dedicated dacs, without telling you which model, and based on the specs of the avr as a whole, I think it is one that has specs far below that of the smsl su-1. The SU-1 is based on AKM's near flagship AK4493S that has specs, such as 113-115 dB SINAD that only truly flagship class AVRs would offer.

 

[remomoreira]

You would need to have the Receiver set to use the coaxial digital input as the source in order to get audio this way. Page 112 of the VSX-935 manual talks about assigning a digital output type via the on-screen menu:
View attachment 65572

If you're doing an analog signal form the external DAC, you'd have to select the corresponding analog input instead. Usually the same as labelled on the rear input, as I doubt this model supports re-assignment.

It worked, I managed to get the DAC to work on my receiver.

However, I didn't notice any increase in audio quality. I did several tests here playing the same song on the Blu-ray player WITH and WITHOUT the DAC, and there was no noticeable difference in audio quality, at least to my ears.

I suppose the reason for this must be that the audio quality of my blu ray player's internal DAC is the same as that of the external DAC.

 

[PENG]

I suppose the reason for this must be that the audio quality of my blu ray player's internal DAC is the same as that of the external DAC.

No, it is not a "must be", there could be a number of other possible reasons. In fact, it is very unlikely (I dare say impossible...) that the BRP's DAC is of the same quality, the much more likely reason could be a) the Pioneer's dac is not the botleneck, as the preamp and other OPamp ICs in the signal path are the real bottlenecks, and b) all of the circuitry/parts in the signal path have distortions low enough that you are unable to hear a difference anyway, keep in mind not everyone has the so called golden ears.

If you want to hear the difference of the better DACs such as the SU-1 you have, you have to have everything else in the signal path, in fact including your speakers, placement, room etc. Even then, it will be theoretical, because ultimately we are limited by our own ability to discern the minor differences that are measurable by audio test instruments but may not be audible to us normal humans.

 

[remomoreira]

No, it is not a "must be", there could be a number of other possible reasons. In fact, it is very unlikely (I dare say impossible...) that the BRP's DAC is of the same quality, the much more likely reason could be a) the Pioneer's dac is not the botleneck, as the preamp and other OPamp ICs in the signal path are the real bottlenecks, and b) all of the circuitry/parts in the signal path have distortions low enough that you are unable to hear a difference anyway, keep in mind not everyone has the so called golden ears.

If you want to hear the difference of the better DACs such as the SU-1 you have, you have to have everything else in the signal path, in fact including your speakers, placement, room etc. Even then, it will be theoretical, because ultimately we are limited by our own ability to discern the minor differences that are measurable by audio test instruments but may not be audible to us normal humans.

I dont use any pre amp, only a receiver.

 

[PENG]

I dont use any pre amp, only a receiver.

You do, your receiver has many components, including the preamp section.

 

[dolynick]

However, I didn't notice any increase in audio quality.

If you're going SU-1 to analog in, does your Pioneer have any sort of "analog direct" or "Pure" setting for analog input? Otherwise it may well be converting it into digital, processing it and then back to analog again - especially if you have room correction or tone controls enabled. Thsi more or less defeats the purpose of using an external dac because you're boiling it down to the receiver's ADC/DAC again anyways.

That still doesn't mean that it would sound markedly (or even noticeably) different. Depends on the converters used and their implementation. PENG is right that the SU-1 is likely the more SOTA DAC but gains in perceivable audio quality from that might be (most would say yes) outweighed by gains from room correction. Which is why you were getting the suggestions to run coax from the player directly to the receiver and get the digital input working.

If it was me, I'd do one of two things:
1) The purist approach - Use the SU-1/highest quality DAC and then keep the analog output unmodified from there on out. That means no room EQ or tone controls and a "direct" setting on the Reciever.
2) Drop the SU-1 and get the coax input working on the Pioneer and then use the room EQ to address issues in the room as best it can.

Neither is "incorrect" but most are going to recommend #2 as it's both cheaper and room EQ usually has a bigger impact.

 

[Trebdp83]

This case has been at least a month’s long chasing of a dragon on this and other forums. Sometimes, the chase ends only after one’s own experimentation with different devices while many advise one to save themselves the time, money and effort involved in such a thing. Sometimes, one has to hear it with their own ears, or rather, not hear a difference in sound quality with their own ears.

Concerning the Sony player, it’s an all digital affair and the DAC comparison is between the external DAC and the receiver. It seems a difference could not be discerned. Some think superior numbers on a page will automatically translate to a superior audio experience. It often does not do so. That usually only happens when moving to a superior set of speakers.

If you want to play multichannel signals from a SACD or DSD files using the Sony player, you must use the HDMI connection from the player to the receiver to do so. This is also the case concerning lossless multichannel PCM, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio signals from blu-ray discs.

Be aware that any two channel signals played back on the receiver using Pure Direct or Direct mode using a digital or analog connection will output sound only from the front speakers and a powered subwoofer connected to the sub pre out will NOT receive a signal using either of those two modes when playing back two channel signals regardless of the speaker and subwoofer settings.

 

[isolar8001]

But...but...The CheapAudioMan says that all of these 100 dollar DAC's sound different and all of them sound better than what's inside AVR's and such.
If you cant trust a man whose facial hair looks like a bear hide after laying in one muddy spot all winter, who can you trust ??

 

[ban25]

I'll add that the whole reason this desktop DAC niche emerged is because of the extremely poor quality of PC audio sections with little isolation on cheap Taiwanese motherboards (and even pricey ones). A desktop PC is a noisy environment and particularly in the early 2000s, it wasn't uncommon to get coil whine even when moving your mouse. The solution to that was to get the audio signal *outside* the chassis in digital form via USB so that it could be converted to analog and passed onto a set of headphones or PC speakers in a relatively noise-free environment.

That's the sole and only reason such DACs exist. At some point, audiophiles (both subjectivist and objectivist) got on the bandwagon of hanging these boxes off the side of their HiFi setups, but it doesn't make any difference -- as you have found out.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'll add that the whole reason this desktop DAC niche emerged is because of the extremely poor quality of PC audio sections with little isolation on cheap Taiwanese motherboards (and even pricey ones). A desktop PC is a noisy environment and particularly in the early 2000s, it wasn't uncommon to get coil whine even when moving your mouse. The solution to that was to get the audio signal *outside* the chassis in digital form via USB so that it could be converted to analog and passed onto a set of headphones or PC speakers in a relatively noise-free environment.

That's the sole and only reason such DACs exist. At some point, audiophiles (both subjectivist and objectivist) got on the bandwagon of hanging these boxes off the side of their HiFi setups, but it doesn't make any difference -- as you have found out.

Interesting, always viewed the external dac as a product of converting old analog gear rather than utilizing pcs.....

 

[lovinthehd]

It worked, I managed to get the DAC to work on my receiver.

However, I didn't notice any increase in audio quality. I did several tests here playing the same song on the Blu-ray player WITH and WITHOUT the DAC, and there was no noticeable difference in audio quality, at least to my ears.

I suppose the reason for this must be that the audio quality of my blu ray player's internal DAC is the same as that of the external DAC.

It's more that dac technology has been mature for quite a while, an audible difference would be unusual.

ps a long thread, but has a lot of info in it https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/serious-question-how-can-dacs-have-a-sound-signature-if-they-measure-as-transparent-are-that-many-confused.9245/

 

[PENG]

But...but...The CheapAudioMan says that all of these 100 dollar DAC's sound different and all of them sound better than what's inside AVR's and such.
If you cant trust a man whose facial hair looks like a bear hide after laying in one muddy spot all winter, who can you trust ??

I find it amazing that most such youtubers don't really have much technical knowledge, but just be willing to share their subjective impressions of how the reviewed gear "sound", could attract so many viewers. I don't know what the average IQ (on AV stuff, if one such IQ exists) is, but would think it must be really low lol..

 

[isolar8001]

I find it amazing that most such youtubers don't really have much technical knowledge, but just be willing to share their subjective impressions of how the reviewed gear "sound", could attract so many viewers. I don't know what the average IQ (on AV stuff, if one such IQ exists) is, but would think it must be really low lol..

That's for sure...in the case of thecheapaudioman, he listens to everything with mostly Metallica and other such sonic disasters. It's all his subjective opinion.
And his reviews don't even show the gear being evaluated, except for a few seconds when he holds it up to the camera...just shows his damn scary lookin' face !!

 

[PENG]

That's for sure...in the case of thecheapaudioman, he listens to everything with mostly Metallica and other such sonic disasters. It's all his subjective opinion.
And his reviews don't even show the gear being evaluated, except for a few seconds when he holds it up to the camera...just shows his damn scary lookin' face !!

That's another thing, not just Mr. cheapaudioman, most others seem to also use tons of Metallica stuff for their subjective comparative listening. So, their reference for sound quality seems to be based on tons of electronics, including mics of questionable quality, amplifiers of all kinds, EQ devices etc.etc.., yet so many people obviously never thought of those either.