Car Amp Wattage for new Speakers?

[isolar8001]

You know those passive crossovers wasted a lot of power, right?

Your replies are as misinformed as ever I see...

 

[TLS Guy]

Your replies are as misinformed as ever I see...

Why? Passive crossovers usually waste half or more of the amp power. Most passive crossovers waste at least 3db, wich is half the amp power.

 

[TLS Guy]

So you wouldn't recommend putting the speakers directly to active crossovers in amp instead of both? my door are really heavy and could possible interfere with the signals the shop said

I would not recommend adding any amps or speakers to that car. It is new enough that the voltage regulation is digital, and on that vehicle it is complex. The regulator itself is almost $300. Usually the aftermarket amps can not cope with the very high frequencies on the electrical bus from those regulators and you get a loud buzz or damage.

Putting sound systems in modern vehicles can, and often does do, a lot of damage. I advise people to not even consider it, and leave the car alone. I know of absolute horror stories. That is why there are so few car audio installers left, because the have been sued out of business from the damage they have caused to vehicles.

In modern vehicles the audio system is part of a total design and in almost all cases changing the audio system will be a massive downgrade as well as courting costly damage to the vehicle.

 

[isolar8001]

Why? Passive crossovers usually waste half or more of the amp power. Most passive crossovers waste at least 3db, hich is half the amp power.

Rockford specially designed the amps to operate this way....the key was to drop the impedance to almost nothing and the amps took it in stride. Any passive loss was negated. If you didn't use their amps this way, they were nothing but damned expensive two channel amps.
.
You cant apply normal theory to this method.

And you cant run electronic crossovers with one amp (these Punch's were two channel amps).....believe me, when Rockford first told us about this we all had the same thoughts. We always used multiple amps with electronic crossovers.
Until they taught us how and we did it.

And cars using that method were winning contests left and right.
After two days at their tech school, we were selling one amp Punch 45, 75 and Punch 150 systems every other day.
I kept a Punch 75 system in my car as a demo....16 speakers off of one stereo amp with nothing but caps and chokes, and it was incredible.
There was a wiring method that ran the subs in mono and the rest in stereo. We kept the entire system wired to 2 ohms or as close as we could get.

If some techy had brought up passive loss listening to it, he would have done so while smiling and having his eardrums beat half to death !

 

[shanethelegend]

I would not recommend adding any amps or speakers to that car. It is new enough that the voltage regulation is digital, and on that vehicle it is complex. The regulator itself is almost $300. Usually the aftermarket amps can not cope with the very high frequencies on the electrical bus from those regulators and you get a loud buzz or damage.

Putting sound systems in modern vehicles can, and often does do, a lot of damage. I advise people to not even consider it, and leave the car alone. I know of absolute horror stories. That is why there are so few car audio installers left, because the have been sued out of business from the damage they have caused to vehicles.

In modern vehicles the audio system is part of a total design and in almost all cases changing the audio system will be a massive downgrade as well as courting costly damage to the vehicle.

The stock speakers absolutely sucked though and 2003 most people think is very old so. What kind of damage are we talking if I add 2 Amps and some subs?

 

[TLS Guy]

Rockford specially designed the amps to operate this way....the key was to drop the impedance to almost nothing and the amps took it in stride. Any passive loss was negated. If you didn't use their amps this way, they were nothing but damned expensive two channel amps.
.
You cant apply normal theory to this method.

And you cant run electronic crossovers with one amp (these Punch's were two channel amps).....believe me, when Rockford first told us about this we all had the same thoughts. We always used multiple amps with electronic crossovers.
Until they taught us how and we did it.

And cars using that method were winning contests left and right.
After two days at their tech school, we were selling one amp Punch 45, 75 and Punch 150 systems every other day.
I kept a Punch 75 system in my car as a demo....16 speakers off of one stereo amp with nothing but caps and chokes, and it was incredible.
There was a wiring method that ran the subs in mono and the rest in stereo. We kept the entire system wired to 2 ohms or as close as we could get.

If some techy had brought up passive loss listening to it, he would have done so while smiling and having his eardrums beat half to death !

I am well aware that active crossovers do not affect power output, as active crossover are used extensively in my HT system. However the OP was talking about passive crossovers.

Caution is necessary. During my time on the lakes of Northern Minnesota I had a number of artisans asking my advice after disasters of car installers wiring up aftermarket audio systems after the introduction of these digital regulators. I formed the opinion that they are incredibly fragile.

The worst mishaps were from people boosting flat batteries in cold weather and having both vehicles running while connected together. That fries both vehicles. The wrecker services only allow their drivers to boost vehicles with battery booster packs now.

 

[TLS Guy]

The stock speakers absolutely sucked though and 2003 most people think is very old so. What kind of damage are we talking if I add 2 Amps and some subs?

All I can tell is that messing with the electrical systems of vehicles with digital regulators can causes expensive damage.

The other issue is that newer cars have a lot of high frequency electrical junk on the whole electrical system, which factory installations are designed to deal with. So it is not infrequent to just get a really loud buzz on the whole system if what you install gear that is not designed for the car it is installed in.

Unfortunately I think we are at the point where if you don't like the audio, then get a new car.

I have to say, that our last cars have had excellent factory audio systems, as do out current ones. They have really upped their game over the last 20 years. Now I am of the opinion that the best audio systems most people own are in their cars.

 

[shanethelegend]

All I can tell is that messing with the electrical systems of vehicles with digital regulators can causes expensive damage.

The other issue is that newer cars have a lot of high frequency electrical junk on the whole electrical system, which factory installations are designed to deal with. So it is not infrequent to just get a really loud buzz on the whole system if what you install gear that is not designed for the car it is installed in.

Unfortunately I think we are at the point where if you don't like the audio, then get a new car.

I have to say, that our last cars have had excellent factory audio systems, as do out current ones. They have really upped their game over the last 20 years. Now I am of the opinion that the best audio systems most people own are in their cars.

Yeah honestly man I feel like every single newish cars comes with a whole sound system stock sounding great, I ended up getting this amp and I'm just going to ask this guy that does all my electronic work to see what he says about the crossovers. And like I've already put so much money into fixing this car I plan on keeping it a while that's why I changed out the speakers in the first place

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah honestly man I feel like every single newish cars comes with a whole sound system stock sounding great, I ended up getting this amp and I'm just going to ask this guy that does all my electronic work to see what he says about the crossovers. And like I've already put so much money into fixing this car I plan on keeping it a while that's why I changed out the speakers in the first place

It may depend on how independent your audio system is in that vehicle vs the rest....might look into Infiniti user groups/fora. 20 years old I'd think you have a shot at modification vs newer ones, but Infiniti was kinda advanced

 

[TLS Guy]

It may depend on how independent your audio system is in that vehicle vs the rest....might look into Infiniti user groups/fora. 20 years old I'd think you have a shot at modification vs newer ones, but Infiniti was kinda advanced

I did take a look at the electrical system of that vehicle, and you are right, it is advanced.

Generally replacing stock sound systems is a poor investment, particularly on a car of that age, unless you can do the work yourself. You end up selling cars on eventually, and you will never get any money back on your audio investment.

So that is a 21 year old vehicle. Data shows that at about 14 to 15 years old then cars start going to the junkyard at an exponential rate. I try and keep cars long, and historically have done most of the work on them myself, until the last few years, as I am no longer up to it. Keeping my 1981 JD 214 lawn tractor with its snow blower running, is about my limit now. Also since moving to Eagan I no longer have access to a lift. I did in Grand Forks and the lake.
I kept my 1988 6.2 Lt diesel suburban running all these years, and made sure it never saw the inside of a dealer. I sold it on in August with 210,000 miles on it as I was not using it. A guy bought it from St. Louis. He flew up and drove it back to St. Louis at night from the Twin Cities, without incident. My wife's 2008 Toyota Camry is still going well and no serious rust problems yet.

Probably was a bad investment putting a lot of money into a car that age, unless you are planning to keep it as a collector vehicle.

 

[isolar8001]

This is why I suggest that the OP take his car to an expert...they will know which cars to not attempt installations into if they are worth their salt and can be trusted. Most of the legitimate ones left won't risk legalities to make minimal bucks.
Things are quite different than when I got out of this around '96. Even then we began to see issues with aftermarket amps and accessories causing havoc.

Lovinthehd's suggestion is very sound also....see what others with the same vehicle have done and if there are any issues.

HighFigh, if you have an issue with Rockfords use of passive crossovers for their one amp systems, feel free to call or write them with your concerns.
Telling me about basic theory for something I didn't come up with is pointless.
I doubt you installed one of those systems, and I doubt you ever heard one.
I did both, and they kicked major, and I mean major ass.
I'm sure Rockford will get a nice chuckle from your correspondence.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is why I suggest that the OP take his car to an expert...they will know which cars to not attempt installations into if they are worth their salt and can be trusted. Most of the legitimate ones left won't risk legalities to make minimal bucks.
Things are quite different than when I got out of this around '96. Even then we began to see issues with aftermarket amps and accessories causing havoc.

Lovinthehd's suggestion is very sound also....see what others with the same vehicle have done and if there are any issues.

HighFigh, if you have an issue with Rockfords use of passive crossovers for their one amp systems, feel free to call or write them with your concerns.
Telling me about basic theory for something I didn't come up with is pointless.
I doubt you installed one of those systems, and I doubt you ever heard one.
I did both, and they kicked major, and I mean major ass.
I'm sure Rockford will get a nice chuckle from your correspondence.

I agree with obtaining expert advice completely. At least round here most of these guys are long gone, because of these issues.

 

[isolar8001]

I agree with obtaining expert advice completely. At least round here most of these guys are long gone, because of these issues.

Gone around here in Pittsburgh also.
One of the shops I worked at in neighboring Greensburg just got out of all home and car audio sales and are now "Consultants"
Sad...I used to get my hands on everything under the sun there. Home and Car.

 

[shanethelegend]

I agree with obtaining expert advice completely. At least round here most of these guys are long gone, because of these issues.

Yeah I'm out here in orange county California there's alot of car shops that do audio but they specialize in tinting and alarms and stuff like that, Andy first car I had bought new speakers from best buy and had them install them and discovered its pointless if your not going to spend more than 100 bucks a pair, I had gotten kickers for like 80 bucks a pair and my stock ford focus 2005 Sony speakers were better haha and they installed them bad too. But the way I look at it is I'm very particular with how my drum set sound and have spent alot of money on so I think my car is worth it as well since I'm in it every day

 

[shanethelegend]

Yeah

I did take a look at the electrical system of that vehicle, and you are right, it is advanced.

Generally replacing stock sound systems is a poor investment, particularly on a car of that age, unless you can do the work yourself. You end up selling cars on eventually, and you will never get any money back on your audio investment.

So that is a 21 year old vehicle. Data shows that at about 14 to 15 years old then cars start going to the junkyard at an exponential rate. I try and keep cars long, and historically have done most of the work on them myself, until the last few years, as I am no longer up to it. Keeping my 1981 JD 214 lawn tractor with its snow blower running, is about my limit now. Also since moving to Eagan I no longer have access to a lift. I did in Grand Forks and the lake.
I kept my 1988 6.2 Lt diesel suburban running all these years, and made sure it never saw the inside of a dealer. I sold it on in August with 210,000 miles on it as I was not using it. A guy bought it from St. Louis. He flew up and drove it back to St. Louis at night from the Twin Cities, without incident. My wife's 2008 Toyota Camry is still going well and no serious rust problems yet.

Probably was a bad investment putting a lot of money into a car that age, unless you are planning to keep it as a collector vehicle.

It definitely was not the best investment but I never was thinking about the re sell value it's a sexy car haha and now I'm finally just doing cosmetic stuff and being that I'm in my car every single day I think it's worth 900 bucks or whatever for a good sound system. I know il never get the money back I put in that's just a part of it‍ but my last car I took the speakers I put in put of the car and was able to resell them on offer up so maybe that will be the case eventually

 

[highfigh]

Your replies are as misinformed as ever I see...

Seriously? Have you not heard of insertion loss? Passive crossover components CAN'T pass the signal without loss and there's nothing in that circuit to make up for it- it has to be done with the volume and level controls on the head unit, amps and processors. If you think you have special powers and knowledge, stop- you don't.

 

[highfigh]

Rockford specially designed the amps to operate this way....the key was to drop the impedance to almost nothing and the amps took it in stride. Any passive loss was negated. If you didn't use their amps this way, they were nothing but damned expensive two channel amps.
.
You cant apply normal theory to this method.

And you cant run electronic crossovers with one amp (these Punch's were two channel amps).....believe me, when Rockford first told us about this we all had the same thoughts. We always used multiple amps with electronic crossovers.
Until they taught us how and we did it.

And cars using that method were winning contests left and right.
After two days at their tech school, we were selling one amp Punch 45, 75 and Punch 150 systems every other day.
I kept a Punch 75 system in my car as a demo....16 speakers off of one stereo amp with nothing but caps and chokes, and it was incredible.
There was a wiring method that ran the subs in mono and the rest in stereo. We kept the entire system wired to 2 ohms or as close as we could get.

If some techy had brought up passive loss listening to it, he would have done so while smiling and having his eardrums beat half to death !

I never wrote that it can't be done and in fact, I would like 12V amplifier manufacturers to use the Power Cube testing that showed which amps had balls and the ones that were phoning it in but the manufacturers won't because they don't want to show the weaknesses in their products. I still have my Rockford-Fosgate binder with the test results and comparisons that we got at Boot Camp- those amps were/are beasts and needed the charging/reserve to be able to keep up with the current demands. Headroom is good, some amps weren't capable of any because their power supplies were so heavily regulated.

We did a lot of systems using 'tri-mode' too, but it's a lot easier and more precise to use active crossovers to counteract road noise and other issues as they arise.

It's not an "Oh, you're using passive crossovers and I can hear the effects" thing, it's about losing power needlessly- you can't have unity gain with passive crossovers and you can't add gain with them, as you can with active processors.

 

[highfigh]

Gone around here in Pittsburgh also.
One of the shops I worked at in neighboring Greensburg just got out of all home and car audio sales and are now "Consultants"
Sad...I used to get my hands on everything under the sun there. Home and Car.

The car audio landscape has definitely changed and not for the better in many ways- the auto manufacturers are saying "You want options? You'll take what we give you and YOU WILL LIKE IT!".

 

[highfigh]

The worst mishaps were from people boosting flat batteries in cold weather and having both vehicles running while connected together. That fries both vehicles. The wrecker services only allow their drivers to boost vehicles with battery booster packs now.

People think they can jump start a vehicle the same way as it was done in the past and while it may start, it's likely that one or both will need a voltage regulator/alternator rebuild soon after. That's the reason the alternator on my Buick failed- I was jump starting a car and told them to wait until I told them it was time to crank and that nimrod cranked it while my car was running.

But people don't know Volts from Amps and why this happens- I replaced the starter in my boat, which has a small-ish 4 cylinder Mercruiser engine and the replacement came with a sheet showing test results (something I believe should be in the box with ALL starters- it shows roughly 4300W as the energy used and that's far more than any alternator will handle. A larger engine draws even more, even if it uses gear reduction (which my replacement does).

 

[Focus SE]

This is the answer I was looking for, yeah the guy seemed shady he didn't install the crossovers because he said you need an aftermarket 4 channel amp to do it and in the meantime put crossovers in to not ruin the speakers from "under wattage" was his excuse. I still have the crossovers and plan on getting subs and another amp for my trunk, but do you think either of those amps would be good? And if my doors are really heavy and alot of vibration is it bad to install the crossovers inside possibly messing with the signals?

I would like to jump in here and put my ignorance on display for all, as it relates to wattage and trying to upsell the amp. I am not looking to debate or argue my point because I don't even truly understand my understanding. Nor is this a criticism of any opinions expressed here. I'm questioning because I don't fully understand.

When it comes to car vs home audio as it relates to wattage, you will typically find the average recommended wattage rating in car audio much higher than home audio. Cars of the past were 12V systems and now more increasingly 24V systems. On the other hand, housing ranges between 110V and 120V. Take aside the specifics of the equipment here and crossover talk. But in theory you can ruin speakers with both too little and too much power. It generally happens more often with too little power because people tend not to spend excessive amounts on an amp when they budget shopped for the speakers.

Specs aside, assume you are comparing a quality speaker for home or car, the principles are the same you just need higher wattage in a car because of the lower voltage. On a home system with a quality speaker one can certainly power any set of speakers with 50 watts of amplification at lower volumes. Do you need higher wattage up to 200 watts or more? No but it does have an appreciable effect on the sound clarity and as it relates to head room and amp matching. As it relates to the OP's I have no idea spec wise Where the line in suggesting too much amp is when trying to maximize a speakers range. But the theory of suggesting seemingly too much doesn't seem totally unreasonable if the speakers can handle it in order to allow for always being able to get the full range. Will you ever use it and if you do will you go deaf is another story.

Like the difference between a 6 cylinder engine and an 8 in the same vehicle type. Or even 4 wheel drive when I'm only using it 2% of the time. IMO there is something to be said about having something available when you need/want it. Where in the audiophile spectrum that exact line is, I have not idea. My problem with the AVS forum is that everyone seems to know exactly where it is and none of them agree.

Just some food for thought