Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

[multisport4me]

Someone on avsforum HTP-1 or Dirac thread answered me and pointed out that you can make the main speakers as "unmanaged." So I tried this and I was able to drag the mains to unmanaged with bass control, yet, it appears Dirac Live is still applied. Now how well this all works, I don't know. But within the Dirac app I do see how to send a full range signal to mains if you exclude them from Dirac bass control.

It seems ART makes xovers moot so I am now a lot more eager and hopeful ART makes its way to the AV10.

 

[Meticulous G]

Sa-weeet, those Europe shows are rippers, but yeah...I think he was still in jail then, or was just getting out, then the wall of sound came soon after

If I've got my facts straight, they only used the wall of sound from early to late '74, then went right into their l'il false retirement for 'bout a year or so after that

Aand ya, it seems he was the best thing to happen to L, after its 1st synthesis, then discovery of its effects by Uncle Abby
...a conversation I would've loved to have had with him

Being younger, instances of knowingly enjoying his work are limited to just once in the mid 90's when the black gels with the gold flake went around, though I spent a bunch of years hard on the scene...so I'm sure there were others

William Leonard Pickard's was REALLY fkn good too

 

[gene]

Someone on avsforum HTP-1 or Dirac thread answered me and pointed out that you can make the main speakers as "unmanaged." So I tried this and I was able to drag the mains to unmanaged with bass control, yet, it appears Dirac Live is still applied. Now how well this all works, I don't know. But within the Dirac app I do see how to send a full range signal to mains if you exclude them from Dirac bass control.

It seems ART makes xovers moot so I am now a lot more eager and hopeful ART makes its way to the AV10.

Interesting. Does it still engage the subs in 2CH when you do this? I will ask Phil Jones about this on Wednesday's livestream. You should definitely tune in for this one.

 

[multisport4me]

Interesting. Does it still engage the subs in 2CH when you do this? I will ask Phil Jones about this on Wednesday's livestream. You should definitely tune in for this one.

I'll try it tomorrow - too busy at work since posting this. I plan on listening into your livestream as well.

 

[multisport4me]

Interesting. Does it still engage the subs in 2CH when you do this? I will ask Phil Jones about this on Wednesday's livestream. You should definitely tune in for this one.

No, it does not. Also - as you might expect - when using an upmixer such as DSU the subs are only getting info from all but main speakers since they are "unmanaged."

 

[gene]

BIG Denon Marantz Feature Updates Livestream Event!

We livestream with Phil Jones of Masimo to discuss BIG feature updates to Denon and Marantz products. Dirac Live Bass Control is now available for select Den...

www.youtube.com

 

[PENG]

Why don’t you simply TRY? Grab an external DAC and connect it.

With my external DAC, connected to my power amp, I can switch between different filters: it is very noticeable changing from Linear Phase slow Roll-off and Minimum phase Slow roll-off. One is harsh and the other is smooth

When I connect the external DAC to the Marantz, the filters make NO DIFFERENCE. Why? Because you are hearing the DAC of the Marantz

I don’t understand this aggressivity. The internal DAC of the Marantz cannot be bypassed, no matter how hard you press the Pure Direct button. Is this offensive to you?

Gents, I understand Deckard71 may not be back to say something and I am not quoting him to make any point other than the following:

When people claim the differences, especially when they claimed "night and say", "just try it yourself and you will hear it", "even my wife, or 10 year old daughter" can hear and ask "Dad, what did you do..", are just what they think they hear. So there is no point asking questions like "okay we see the measurements, but how does it sound?, or to someone who posted I replaced my Marantz avr with Arcam, or Anthem etc., "Please tell us how it sounds?", or "which one sounds better"... etc. etc.. I don't mean people should not ask such questions, for information, fun, or simply sample other opinions, sure ask but I mean those who obviously are trying to make their own purchase/upgrade decisions and want to base such decisions on what they hear from other on the internet about "sound quality", that would be a silly thing to do.

Deckard71 post is a good example, he was told (to be fair to him) by what he thought, the source came from Marantz engineering, and then he actually heard when using his external DAC he could hear different sound that ranges from harsh to smooth between different filters but with the Marantz he could not, not by changing the filters, and he concluded that it was because the Marantz did not bypass the analog signal, therefore he was actually hearing the Marantz's own DAC, totally hilarious when you think about it. The fact is, he wasn't even using the Marantz's DAC, all along he was still using the external DAC because in pure direct/or direct and analog input, the Marantz DAC would have been bypassed. Yet he was so sure of what he heard, enough proof right, at least in Deckard71's case.

People got so fixated on their trust their ears thing mainly because of the internet hearsay, I am proud to be with the AH member here who, most of time do voice their opinions, though we must be getting tired of having to do it over and over again. We need to keep doing this to help counter myths being perpetuated.

This is not to say audio electronics don't make audible differences, of course they could, even dacs, and simple power amps could have audible effects depending on how they are use in a system. The point is about cases reported such as that by Deckard71 that clearly seems unreal right from the beginning. That's the kind of claims that need to be countered, to help new comers to this nice and healthy, abeit costly hobby.

 

[Trebdp83]

Denon/Marantz and folks from other outfits can help by getting ALL of their employees on the same page. Sometimes the misinformation starts at the source and then spreads out over various forums.

One point of correction over the ADC argument concerns the 7.1 EXT. IN analog input ports. Standard 2.0 analog ports can be subjected to an ADC. They can bypass it in Pure Direct/Direct mode. But, as Gene mentioned, wouldn’t bypass it using bass management.

The 7.1 EXT. IN analog inputs were once necessary for 5.1 signals from SACD players before the DSD signal could be sent over HDMI. They also accommodated the 7.1 outputs of newer disc players connected to older units that did not have HDMI ports so that anything more than lossy DD 5.1 signals the likes of Dolby TrueHD 7.1 and DTS HD Master Audio 7.1 could be enjoyed as well as MLP 5.1 from DVD-Audio and uncompressed multichannel PCM from blu-ray.

The 7.1 analog ports did not bypass ADC. They were completely isolated and separate from any DSP. So, there was nothing to actually bypass. They were as good as analog inputs on a separate amp using only volume control. The 2.0 analog ports aren’t isolated from ADC unless using Pure Direct/Direct mode to bypass it.

Processing over a dozen channels using balanced and unbalanced ports eats up quite a bit of real estate. I think compromises were made in the wrong places. The coaxial and optical ports should have been halved and the CBL/SAT, MEDIA PLAYER and at least one pair of AUX ports should have been axed in favor of the 7.1 EXT. IN analog ports.

There are those that don’t like up mixing anything and are happy to let their Oppo do everything and output 7.1 audio over analog. Then, there are those who connect all video devices via HDMI for upmixing 2.0, 5.1, and 7.1 signals and processing of spatial audio formats. But, they may want to use analog ports for connection to a DAC that handles their audio only device. Isolation from DSP was guaranteed using the 7.1 EXT. IN analog ports. The 2.0 analog ports come with big IFs.

 

[Danzilla31]

Gents, I understand Deckard71 may not be back to say something and I am not quoting him to make any point other than the following:

When people claim the differences, especially when they claimed "night and say", "just try it yourself and you will hear it", "even my wife, or 10 year old daughter" can hear and ask "Dad, what did you do..", are just what they think they hear. So there is no point asking questions like "okay we see the measurements, but how does it sound?, or to someone who posted I replaced my Marantz avr with Arcam, or Anthem etc., "Please tell us how it sounds?", or "which one sounds better"... etc. etc.. I don't mean people should not ask such questions, for information, fun, or simply sample other opinions, sure ask but I mean those who obviously are trying to make their own purchase/upgrade decisions and want to base such decisions on what they hear from other on the internet about "sound quality", that would be a silly thing to do.

Deckard71 post is a good example, he was told (to be fair to him) by what he thought, the source came from Marantz engineering, and then he actually heard when using his external DAC with the Marantz sounded harsh vs smooth when changing the filters that are selectable with the AV10. The fact is, he wasn't even using the Marantz's DAC, all along he was still using the external DAC because in pure direct/or direct and analog input, the Marantz DAC would have been bypassed. Yet he was so sure of what he heard, enough proof right, at least in Deckard71's case.

People got so fixated on their trust their ears thing mainly because of the internet hearsay, I am proud to be with the AH member here who, most of time do voice their opinions, though we must be getting tired of having to do it over and over again. We need to keep doing this to help counter myths being perpetuated.

This is not to say audio electronics don't make audible differences, of course they could, even dacs, and simple power amps could have audible effects depending on how they are use in a system. The point is about cases reported such as that by Deckard71 that clearly seems unreal right from the beginning. That's the kind of claims that need to be countered, to help new comers to this nice and healthy, abeit costly hobby.

"Deckard71 post is a good example, he was told (to be fair to him) by what he thought, the source came from Marantz engineering, and then he actually heard when using his external DAC with the Marantz sounded harsh vs smooth when changing the filters that are selectable with the AV10."

Here's the part that caused me to just start tuning him out

He didn't even OWN the AV10 he never even used it he was basing his opinions off an older Marantz Reciever that he had. And he was basing it off his ears but only after he'd talked to the rep

He got caught mentioning that fact as he was arguing his points. He was just so convinced SOLELY off of what the rep had told him. That nothing we could say or measure was going to change his mind

I was like JEEZ LOUIS

 

[gene]

The analog bypass issue was thoroughly addressed by top brass at D&M last night on our livestream. Any D&M product with pure direct feature has a true analog bypass. This is how it's always been in my 20+ years of testing their products.

BIG Denon Marantz Feature Updates Livestream Event!

We livestream with Phil Jones of Masimo to discuss BIG feature updates to Denon and Marantz products. Dirac Live Bass Control is now available for select Den...

www.youtube.com

 

[multisport4me]

Gene (or Peng) - I did some comparisons of Pure Direct vs. straight run from my DMP-A8 to AMP10 and, as expected, I cannot hear any differences. That said, I do perceive differences from DAC to DAC when using DSU and Center Spread. Which makes me wonder if you can comment on below on a question about if/how different DACs could be processed slightly differently:

"For some reason, I can hear some differences when comparing DACs and I know that empirically, I shouldn't, since they all measure very well in terms of SINAD. So I may post a question for the engineer types on Audioholics (unless Gene is tuned in here) as to if/how different DACs may sound different through different upmixers. I'm not an engineer so I can only speculate that perhaps - an uneducated guess - that slight variances from DAC to DAC in measurements like crosstalk, filtering, IMD, etc. could hit the AV10 ADC just different enough that the upmixer processes different enough that there are perceptible differences?"

 

[gene]

Gene (or Peng) - I did some comparisons of Pure Direct vs. straight run from my DMP-A8 to AMP10 and, as expected, I cannot hear any differences. That said, I do perceive differences from DAC to DAC when using DSU and Center Spread. Which makes me wonder if you can comment on below on a question about if/how different DACs could be processed slightly differently:

"For some reason, I can hear some differences when comparing DACs and I know that empirically, I shouldn't, since they all measure very well in terms of SINAD. So I may post a question for the engineer types on Audioholics (unless Gene is tuned in here) as to if/how different DACs may sound different through different upmixers. I'm not an engineer so I can only speculate that perhaps - an uneducated guess - that slight variances from DAC to DAC in measurements like crosstalk, filtering, IMD, etc. could hit the AV10 ADC just different enough that the upmixer processes different enough that there are perceptible differences?"

If your using an analog source than digitizing it to engage the DSU, then yes it can very well sound different. I would always tell people use the DSU for digital sources only. The ADCs in most consumer gear tends to be subpar.

 

[PENG]

If your using an analog source than digitizing it to engage the DSU, then yes it can very well sound different. I would always tell people use the DSU for digital sources only. The ADCs in most consumer gear tends to be subpar.

Thank you so much for raising that point with Phil Jones and he was good enough to actually said "...customer support have been corrected..." not exact word but something like that.

Everyone please watch that video, very informative!!

BIG Denon Marantz Feature Updates Livestream Event! (youtube.com)

One suggestion for @gene , would you be kind enough to lower the level of the theme music on your video channel please? When I am using the desktop, it got so loud that I worry about it damaging my not too cheap KEF LS50s.

 

[ban25]

One suggestion for @gene , would you be kind enough to lower the level of the theme music on your video channel please? When I am using the desktop, it got so loud that I worry about it damaging my not too cheap KEF LS50s.

NGL, I love the loud opening with hard-hitting bass -- it reminds me my system is working well

 

[gene]

Thank you so much for raising that point with Phil Jones and he was good enough to actually said "...customer support have been corrected..." not exact word but something like that.

Everyone please watch that video, very informative!!

BIG Denon Marantz Feature Updates Livestream Event! (youtube.com)

One suggestion for @gene , would you be kind enough to lower the level of the theme music on your video channel please? When I am using the desktop, it got so loud that I worry about it damaging my not too cheap KEF LS50s.

I don't honestly know how to do that. The bumper is obnoxiously loud and I likely will have someone redesign it. Sorry LOL

 

[Deckard71]

Gene (or Peng) - I did some comparisons of Pure Direct vs. straight run from my DMP-A8 to AMP10 and, as expected, I cannot hear any differences. That said, I do perceive differences from DAC to DAC when using DSU and Center Spread. Which makes me wonder if you can comment on below on a question about if/how different DACs could be processed slightly differently:

"For some reason, I can hear some differences when comparing DACs and I know that empirically, I shouldn't, since they all measure very well in terms of SINAD. So I may post a question for the engineer types on Audioholics (unless Gene is tuned in here) as to if/how different DACs may sound different through different upmixers. I'm not an engineer so I can only speculate that perhaps - an uneducated guess - that slight variances from DAC to DAC in measurements like crosstalk, filtering, IMD, etc. could hit the AV10 ADC just different enough that the upmixer processes different enough that there are perceptible differences?"

this is called paranoia

 

[multisport4me]

this is called paranoia

A bit too much egg nog this evening? It's hard to tell since you're usually incoherent making whatever-point-it-is you're trying to make. I pray some semblance of intellect shall enter that thick skull of yours in 2024. Go forth and be merry and may be peace be with you.

 

[Danzilla31]

this is called paranoia

Ohhhh I was wondering if you would ever show back up here. So don't you owe Gene something? I don't know maybe a hey Gene you were right and I was wrong? Also are you ever going to buy the AV10?

 

[Danzilla31]

this is called paranoia

Or are you going to skulk around these AV10 threads just lurking about never able to purchase one of the best processors out right now because some tech in the engineering department gave you an answer that both Gene and Amir proved was not right in their measurements. And one of the top guys in the D&M department went on video to say to the public that that tech was not right that Gene and Amirs testing was valid. But you can't let go off because after that tech told you that you could tell by using an older Marantz by your EARS not measurements that it was digitized and not passed straight through.

You really gonna skulk around these threads like Gollum skulking after Frodo pining for the ring?

Just buy the dang thing already or get off the thread and go buy something else already you goofya$$

 

[PENG]

Gene (or Peng) - I did some comparisons of Pure Direct vs. straight run from my DMP-A8 to AMP10 and, as expected, I cannot hear any differences. That said, I do perceive differences from DAC to DAC when using DSU and Center Spread. Which makes me wonder if you can comment on below on a question about if/how different DACs could be processed slightly differently:

"For some reason, I can hear some differences when comparing DACs and I know that empirically, I shouldn't, since they all measure very well in terms of SINAD. So I may post a question for the engineer types on Audioholics (unless Gene is tuned in here) as to if/how different DACs may sound different through different upmixers. I'm not an engineer so I can only speculate that perhaps - an uneducated guess - that slight variances from DAC to DAC in measurements like crosstalk, filtering, IMD, etc. could hit the AV10 ADC just different enough that the upmixer processes different enough that there are perceptible differences?"

I don't follow the logic either. If I understand you correctly, you are asking why you could perceive different sound quality between your external dacs, when putting the signal through the Marantz ADC>DSP>DAC>Vol control signal path. To me, as you alluded to, it really shouldn't, because the ADC Marantz are likely using, has much lower specs than the DAC's, assuming they are using the same ones they used in the previous model lines.

The only thing I can suggest is, if you are curious enough to find out the "truth" (just hopefully), do a blind test, at least a level matched single blind test that's still not easy as it will take some work, but doable at home.

To me I used to think I heard differences when I used external DACs, and I still do and that's the main reason why I have so many of them lol.. That said, I am quite sure in a single blind test, I wouldn't hear any difference, lol..., again.