Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

[PENG]

Summary: the DAC in the AV10 is good and has very good measurements. However, the lack of analog bypass makes no possible to use any external DAC, as it will get digitized

I fully understand the fact that you were told by one Marantz rep that it wasn't possible to bypass the Marantz's internal dac, but since then you must have read quite a few forum members rebuttals of what that rep said, and/or questioning/expressing doubts about what's been said For the benefit of other members who might not have investigated this alleged issue, I would quote the following, from that AVSF (surely you read it, as you participated), just so they can have a more balanced view on this alleged issue.

First, see their resident expert (I read a lot of his stuff, and I have the impression that he's probably an "insider", and has viewed a lot of service manuals, and evidently knows how to read schematics) bigguyca's comment:
The "OFFICIAL" 2022-23 MARANTZ AV 10 Flagship DIRAC Processor Owners' Thread (!!!-READ THE 1st PAGE-!!!) | Page 31 | AVS Forum

In response to the original question:

Guys don't crucify me, trust me I searched and searched and read and read...but I'm still not 100% certain of one thing: Does the AVR 10 on the XLR input (I want to hook up a streamer/DAC with balanced output like Cambridge/Arcam/Lumin/etc...still trying to figure out which one) allow an external DAC's analog output on the XLR to pass through directly to the 2ch amplifier I have connected for L & R channels (which will be a JC5 via XLR's as well)?

The answer depends on your definition of "directly." If the AV 10 is like at least medium level and above Denon/Marantz AVR/AVP's, then there is no analog to digital to analog conversion in the AV 10 in Direct or Pure Direct modes with analog inputs.

and the following shows one memember took the time to investigate further, with the help of a dealer:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | Page 2 | AVS Forum

Again, the reason I took the time to do this post is, so other members, owners or potential owners of the AV10 can have a more complete picture, not just the one you posted so far. It is not really directed to you as such, as I am sure you have good intention and just want to share what you know on this topic.

Actually, I did contact Engulfaudio and they were very helpful and provided a contact at D&M Holdings and answered my question, according to Marantz it is a pass-through via Pure-Direct. Also, thanks for all the feedback.

Here's one post about how a member questioned the rep(s), he talked to 2 reps apparently further:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | AVS Forum

You can see in the quote that those reps are not really sure, the part about the crossover thing is sort of a straw man argument, though the rep was at least thinking logically. On that suggestion, I got a response from Marantz that it was explainable as to how they could do the small/crossover without "digitizing". Actually Gene found that similar thing in his review of one of the old Denon flagship, that it was able to do small and crossover without the signal being digitized (not too relevant but just want to mention it in case someone might be interested to know).

I had a discussion with Marantz customer support a few minutes ago. The fellow I spoke with did not know whether Direct and Pure Direct remain analog from input to output. He consulted a colleague and was told that the loudspeaker crossover section was digital only. Setting the front left and right speakers to Small and using a subwoofer thus required digital conversion of the source input.

I then asked whether setting the front speakers to Large would allow the input to remain fully analog. The two reps did not know if this would bypass the digital section, but promised to research this further with their superiors and get back to me within 48 hours. I will, of course, provide an update here when an answer is received.

Another post there where the member expressed doubt:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | AVS Forum

Thanks for all the replies, and it's clear as mud , yes this has been discussed for years, and that is correct I want to leverage the external DAC. I called Marantz and the resource was not sure as well and I asked to have my question escalated and get back w/ me. I would hope/assume the "Pure Direct" indeed by-passes the Marantz internal DACS....

Another post, that seem to be directed to the one above, about doubting the Marantz rep's as he's getting inconsistent responses too:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | Page 2 | AVS Forum

That contradicts what Marantz tech support said to me earlier this week, stating that setting the front left and right loudspeakers to Small requires using a digital conversion even when using the Direct and Pure Direct modes. I was told the AV 10 does not have an analog crossover circuit, only a digital one. Thus, a source using an AV 10 analog input combined with high-pass/low-pass filtering has no way of remaining analog all the way through to the preamp's output.

Different Marantz techs and different answers--most frustrating.

Despite what has been said, you still seem to insist on the untruth:

Below is direct quote from your post on AVSF:

In the former models the only way to bypass the internal DAC was by using the “7.1CH IN” inputs. This way the AV did not process anything and did not allow you to use any DSP, tone control, EQ, etc

@m. zillch then explained to you that you might be wrong, yet your mind seems to be made up just because of one response you got from one Marantz customer rep, and ignore others. That was then, and now, after I took the time to find you more relevant information originated from a product manager who most likely knows more than the first line customer support reps, you still seem so sure that you, and/or that particular Marantz rep is correct and everyone else including Gene, Amir, and others are wrong.

 

[multisport4me]

Summary: the DAC in the AV10 is good and has very good measurements. However, the lack of analog bypass makes no possible to use any external DAC, as it will get digitized

Summary: you are a troll and moderators should treat you as such.

 

[multisport4me]

I fully understand the fact that you were told by one Marantz rep that it wasn't possible to bypass the Marantz's internal dac, but since then you must have read quite a few forum members rebuttals of what that rep said, and/or questioning/expressing doubts about what's been said For the benefit of other members who might not have investigated this alleged issue, I would quote the following, from that AVSF (surely you read it, as you participated), just so they can have a more balanced view on this alleged issue.

First, see their resident expert (I read a lot of his stuff, and I have the impression that he's probably an "insider", and have viewed a lot of service manuals, and evidently knows how to read schematics) bigguyca's comment:
The "OFFICIAL" 2022-23 MARANTZ AV 10 Flagship DIRAC Processor Owners' Thread (!!!-READ THE 1st PAGE-!!!) | Page 31 | AVS Forum

In response to the original question:





and the following shows one memember took the time to investigate further, with the help of a dealer:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | Page 2 | AVS Forum

Again, the reason I took the time to do this post is, so other members, owners or potential owners of the AV10 can have a more complete picture, not just the one you posted so far. It is not really directed to you as such, as I am sure you have good intention and just want to share what you know on this topic.



Here's one post about how a member questioned the rep(s), he talked to 2 reps apparently further:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | AVS Forum

You can see in the quote that those reps are not really sure, the part about the crossover thing is sort of a straw man argument, though the rep was at least thinking logically. On that suggestion, I got a response from Marantz that it was explainable as to how they could do the small/crossover without "digitizing". Actually Gene found that similar thing in his review of one of the old Denon flagship, that it was able to do small and crossover without the signal being digitized (not too relevant but just want to mention it in case someone might be interested to know).



Another post there where the member expressed doubt:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | AVS Forum



Another post, that seem to be directed to the one above, about doubting the Marantz rep's as he's getting inconsistent responses too:
Marantz AV10 2-Channel w/ External DAC | Page 2 | AVS Forum




Despite what has been said, you still seem to insist on the untruth:

Below is direct quote from your post on AVSF:



@m. zillch then explained to you that you might be wrong, yet your mind seems to be made up just because of one response you got from one Marantz customer rep, and ignore others. That was then, and now, after I took the time to find you more relevant information originated from a product manager who most likely knows more than the first line customer support reps, you still seem so sure that you, and/or that particular Marantz rep is correct and everyone else including Gene, Amir, and others are wrong.

Your honor, motion to treat the witness as hostile? Seriously Peng, at this point he's a troll. Let's call it a day and hope moderators start to treat him as such.

 

[PENG]

Your honor, motion to treat the witness as hostile? Seriously Peng, at this point he's a troll. Let's call it a day and hope moderators start to treat him as such.

Thank you very much. I just hope that by providing more information, owners and potential owners of the $7500 AV10 who want to use their own external dac could relax a little without worrying about a perceived issue that likely has less than 5% (and I am being conservative) chance to be true.

Or worse, if someone actually use one's ext. dac, one might actually perceive poorer sound quality simply because of the belief that the signal got converted from analog to digital, then from digital to analog again by the internal dac that they consider not as good as their external one, when in that case they might actually perceive poorer sq because of expectation bias.

 

[Deckard71]

Summary: you are a troll and moderators should treat you as such.

Truth is painful uh? So I am a troll because your AV cannot bypass analog input and you cannot bear having paid such a premium for an AV processor that cannot do what previously much cheaper AVR could

The answer from Marantz comes from the Engineering department, not Customer Service

 

[Danzilla31]

Truth is painful uh? So I am a troll because your AV cannot bypass analog input and you cannot bear having paid such a premium for an AV processor that cannot do what previously much cheaper AVR could

The answer from Marantz comes from the Engineering department, not Customer Service

Bro I don't like name calling or any of that but are you just being deliberately stubborn on your statement by this point?

@gene himself who MEASURED this processor extremely thoroughly found no conversion going on in the measurements Zero. There is zero conversion going on in the analog section. The evidence is in the data.

Which means I feel bad for you because you were thinking of buying this and know you wont because of misinformation that you keep doubling down on. That's your loss too because this is one of the best processors out their period right now. This was confirmed by the measurements at ASR which mirror Gene's Only Storm or Trinnov level money can beat it really. And if you have a good dealer relationship they can probably knock it down a bit off the MSRP

Oh well that's your loss

 

[Deckard71]

Bro I don't like name calling or any of that but are you just being deliberately stubborn on your statement by this point?

@gene himself who MEASURED this processor extremely thoroughly found no conversion going on in the measurements Zero. There is zero conversion going on in the analog section. The evidence is in the data.

Which means I feel bad for you because you were thinking of buying this and know you wont because of misinformation that you keep doubling down on. That's your loss too because this is one of the best processors out their period right now. This was confirmed by the measurements at ASR which mirror Gene's Only Storm or Trinnov level money can beat it really. And if you have a good dealer relationship they can probably knock it down a bit off the MSRP

Oh well that's your loss

You can keep with the blablery but EVERY input will be DIGITIZED

It was digitized before and it will be digitized now as NOTHING HAS CHANGED. The only way before to avoid digitizing was using the 7.1CH inputs

 

[PENG]

Dan, Trinnov's is superior in terms of number of channels, room correction(just may be on that), and probably some advanced features.

In terms of audio quality, tbe AV10, and AVM 90 are the best measued at the moment. The Denon A1H is likely up there in tbe top 3 based on Masimo's own measurements but has not been indepedently verified by Gene or Amir yet.

 

[multisport4me]

You can keep with the blablery but EVERY input will be DIGITIZED

It was digitized before and it will be digitized now as NOTHING HAS CHANGED. The only way before to avoid digitizing was using the 7.1CH inputs

Whatever you say - sometimes perception is reality and in your case, you lack the critical thinking skills to be considered a realist. So perceive what you want. Okay? It doesn't matter either way given the measurements - it is TRANSPARENT. Unless you have dog ears or something that allows you to be more accurate than an AP analyzer? And for the record - I have NO REGRETS buying the AV10 and two AMP10s. Zero. Nada.

I think by now you have made your buying decision. Just go buy whatever you think exists out there that will let you use external DACs till the cows come home. Don't let the door knob hit you in the a$$ as you leave this forum...as in you implied you would already. BTW - I called someone I know at Marantz that is pretty high up and they have assured me that your trolling and nonstop drivel on the forums hasn't put a dent in demand for the AV10. Well done.

 

[Danzilla31]

You can keep with the blablery but EVERY input will be DIGITIZED

It was digitized before and it will be digitized now as NOTHING HAS CHANGED. The only way before to avoid digitizing was using the 7.1CH inputs

Hey man if you want to keep going if this is the hill you want to die on then by all means keep running your mouth

Like I said I just feel sorry for you. You missed out on one of the best processors on the planet.

 

[gene]

Summary: the DAC in the AV10 is good and has very good measurements. However, the lack of analog bypass makes no possible to use any external DAC, as it will get digitized

Please stop spreading misinformation about the AV 10. I again confirmed with the engineer that designed this unit and all related Denon and Marantz product that there is a true analog bypass. My measurements also confirmed this. At this point you're deliberately being deceptive and it won't be tolerated on this forum.

 

[Danzilla31]

Dan, Trinnov's is superior in terms of number of channels, room correction(just may be on that), and probably some advanced features.

In terms of audio quality, tbe AV10, and AVM 90 are the best measued at the moment. The Denon A1H is likely up there in tbe top 3 based on Masimo's own measurements but has not been indepedently verified by Gene or Amir yet.

Thanks @PENG that's good to know

If the HTP-1 hadn't been on a massive sale this summer and I hadn't fallen in love with it this would have been the processor for me. Heck who knows I may still end up with it Lol

 

[Deckard71]

Why don’t you simply TRY? Grab an external DAC and connect it.

With my external DAC, connected to my power amp, I can switch between different filters: it is very noticeable changing from Linear Phase slow Roll-off and Minimum phase Slow roll-off. One is harsh and the other is smooth

When I connect the external DAC to the Marantz, the filters make NO DIFFERENCE. Why? Because you are hearing the DAC of the Marantz

I don’t understand this aggressivity. The internal DAC of the Marantz cannot be bypassed, no matter how hard you press the Pure Direct button. Is this offensive to you?

 

[Danzilla31]

Why don’t you simply TRY? Grab an external DAC and connect it.

With my external DAC, connected to my power amp, I can switch between different filters: it is very noticeable changing from Linear Phase slow Roll-off and Minimum phase Slow roll-off. One is harsh and the other is smooth

When I connect the external DAC to the Marantz, the filters make NO DIFFERENCE. Why? Because you are hearing the DAC of the Marantz

I don’t understand this aggressivity. The internal DAC of the Marantz cannot be bypassed, no matter how hard you press the Pure Direct button. Is this offensive to you?

((I do not have any “assumption”. I was planning to upgrade from marantz sr7013 to AV10

if they provide a different answer, unbiased from commercial interests, I will happily upgrade.))

So in your own post you said you hadn't upgraded to the AV10 yet

So how could you plug your DAC into it and not be able to tell a difference if you haven't bought it yet.

This isnt hostility. Your just a fu$&in troll. Deliberately trying to sabotage a product. Why don't you just get off this site.

Better yet @gene can you just ban this guy?

 

[lovinthehd]

Something being digitized again is such a big deal? Really? If you want something "purer" then buy something else.

 

[Danzilla31]

Something being digitized again is such a big deal? Really? If you want something "purer" then buy something else.

In a true double blind test I'd be willing to bet my house no one could tell which signal has been digitized again and which hadn't

 

[gene]

((I do not have any “assumption”. I was planning to upgrade from marantz sr7013 to AV10

if they provide a different answer, unbiased from commercial interests, I will happily upgrade.))

So in your own post you said you hadn't upgraded to the AV10 yet

So how could you plug your DAC into it and not be able to tell a difference if you haven't bought it yet.

This isnt hostility. Your just a fu$&in troll. Deliberately trying to sabotage a product. Why don't you just get off this site.

Better yet @gene can you just ban this guy?

I gave him a 24 hour time out.

 

[PENG]

Thanks @PENG that's good to know

If the HTP-1 hadn't been on a massive sale this summer and I hadn't fallen in love with it this would have been the processor for me. Heck who knows I may still end up with it Lol

The HTP-1 is a great choice if it has all the features you want. Specs and measurements are both great.

For less than $4,000, it is tough to beat. Does the price include the Dirac Live license?

 

[ryanosaur]

For less than $4,000, it is tough to beat. Does the price include the Dirac Live license?

Basic license, yes.
Bass Control is extra, as will be ART.

 

[multisport4me]

The HTP-1 is a great choice if it has all the features you want. Specs and measurements are both great.

For less than $4,000, it is tough to beat. Does the price include the Dirac Live license?

Yes, but not DLBC. To their credit, they've had DLBC forever and a day - long before anyone else at anywhere near their price point. But I'm skeptical about any other features being implemented any time soon. Nice unit though. Just not as reliable as D&M units and was missing many things I have grown used to having in D&M processors. It is indeed a steal at $4k.