EX-PRESIDENT INDICTED

M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I still believe that Sydney Powell is a remarkably bad liar. She couldn't convince herself that the nonsense she spewed was actually true.
You might be right, I really don't know. When I watch videos of her talking about the international conspiracy to steal the election it seems like gibberish.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
This is obviously bad news for Trump, but it's especially bad news for Giuliani and Eastman.

>>>As part of his plea deal, Chesebro admitted that he conspired . . . with Trump and former Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman. Giuliani and Eastman have both pleaded not guilty in the Georgia case, and now face the prospect of Chesebro taking the witness stand against them.<<<(emphasis added)

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/kenneth-chesebro-georgia-election-subversion/index.html

My best guess (emphasis on guess) is that Giuliani and Eastman will be the next big dominoes to fall. It's hard to get a read on Guiuliani, though, he might go down with the ship.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Trump threatened with imprisonment for violating a gag order.

>>>Former President Donald Trump was fined $5,000 by a New York judge on Friday for violating a gag order not to speak about any members of the court staff – and was warned twice about possible imprisonment.

“Donald Trump has received ample warning from this Court as to the possible repercussions of violating the gag order. He specifically acknowledged that he understood and would abide by it,” Judge Arthur Engoron said in his order Friday.

“Accordingly, issuing yet another warning is not longer appropriate; this Court is way behind the ‘warning’ stage.”

In court, Engoron admonished the former president’s attorneys for a “blatant violation” of the gag order and suggested that violations could result in “imprisonment.” …
<<<

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You might be right, I really don't know. When I watch videos of her talking about the international conspiracy to steal the election it seems like gibberish.
That's because it really was gibberish, as she was well aware.

She was a former federal prosecutor in Texas :eek:. That says truly unfortunate things about what passes for a federal prosecutor in that state.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
This is obviously bad news for Trump, but it's especially bad news for Giuliani and Eastman.
Yep :).
My best guess (emphasis on guess) is that Giuliani and Eastman will be the next big dominoes to fall. It's hard to get a read on Guiuliani, though, he might go down with the ship.
We're all guessing at this point. I'm not a betting man, and even if I were, I wouldn't bet any money on what's coming next, or when it will happen. I personally believe that things might start happening much faster, although that might easily be wishful thinking.

I look at Powell and Chesebro, among others, as the 3rd string in this criminal conspiracy, with Giuliani and Eastman, again among others, as the 2nd string. They're now nervously looking over their shoulders. I think it was easy to guess that some of the 3rd string would make a plea deal. In my opinion, Fani Willis was trying to achieve that with her multiple RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) indictments. And now, the 2nd string's turn is coming up. And there's the Varsity & The Big Fish. Perhaps the Big Fish will rethink his stinginess at refusing to pay for their defense. Perhaps not. One can argue that it's too late for such changes in strategy.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
That's because it really was gibberish, as she was well aware.

She was a former federal prosecutor in Texas :eek:. That say truly unfortunate things about what passes for a federal prosecutor in that state.
She seems to have gone off the rails after one of her clients was convicted in the Enron case:

>>>In one instance, prosecutors said Enron used a sham sale of electricity-generating barges to Merrill Lynch to boost its apparent earnings and make itself appear more profitable. A federal jury found four Merrill Lynch executives – including Brown – guilty of conspiracy and wire fraud. Brown also was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice.

. . . Powell tried unsuccessfully to appeal the remaining charges against Brown. She accused prosecutors of improperly withholding evidence that she said would have cleared her client.

. . . Powell was outraged by the prosecutors’ actions and by a judicial system she believed turned a blind eye. She vented her displeasure in a self-published 2014 book, “Licensed to Lie: Exposing Corruption in the Department of Justice.”

Pierce believes the Enron case had a profound effect on Powell. <<<(emphasis added)


I find myself wondering if she might actually believe some of her own conspiracy nonsense. But of course I don't know the answer to that.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Trump temporarily ungagged in one criminal case.

>>>US District Judge Tanya Chutkan on Friday temporarily froze the gag order she issued on Donald Trump in the former president’s federal 2020 election subversion criminal case.

In a brief order, Chutkan, who is overseeing the case against Trump in Washington, DC, said she was issuing the administrative stay of the gag order entered earlier this week to give the parties more time to brief her on the former president’s request to pause the order while his appeal of it plays out. … <<<

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
The third Trump lawyer making a plea deal in the Georgia election subversion case.

>>>Former Trump campaign lawyer Jenna Ellis has pleaded guilty in the Georgia election subversion case to one count of aiding and abetting false statements and will cooperate with Fulton County prosecutors.

Prosecutors are recommending five years of probation and for Ellis to pay $5,000 in restitution. ...<<<

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
First Sidney Powell, then Ken Chesebro, and now Jenna Ellis have all pleaded guilty in less than a week! All are lawyers who'd rather plead guilty than defend themselves against RICO felony charges. Any two such guilty pleas can define a straight line, but three guilty pleas that line up are good evidence of a genuine trend. How many lawyers besides Giuliani and Eastman remain among the indicted?

These are only the initial guilty pleas. All three plea agreements are directly linked to their providing truthful testimony & complete documentary evidence in subsequent trials. We'll see what their testimony & evidence amounts to later once the trials in Georgia (and elsewhere) begin. The judge can intervene if he thinks any of them are being less than completely truthful. I know little about Ellis, Powell is known to be wack-a-doodle, and Chesebro is known to be more of a political weasel than a lawyer.
 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
First Sidney Powell, then Ken Chesebro, and now Jenna Ellis have all pleaded guilty in less than a week! All are lawyers who'd rather plead guilty than defend themselves against RICO felony charges. Any two such guilty pleas can be considered a straight line, but three guilty pleas that line up are good evidence of real trend. How many lawyers besides Giuliani and Eastman remain among the indicted?

These are only the initial guilty pleas. All three plea agreements are directly linked to their providing truthful testimony & complete documentary evidence in subsequent trials. We'll see what their testimony & evidence amounts to later once the trials in Georgia (and elsewhere) begin. The judge can intervene if he thinks any of them are being less than completely truthful. I know little about Ellis, Powell is known to be wack-a-doodle, and Chesebro is known to be more of a political weasel than a lawyer.
Below is the list of guilty pleas among the indicted in the Georgia RICO case, and I think only Guiliani, Eastman and Clark are lawyers among those not pleading guilty [edit: forgot that Jeffrey Clark is a lawyer but not for Trump but at DoJ]. As I understand it the guilty pleaders do not have a plea deal with the federal government (Jack Smith) so their testimony can be used against them. What a pickle for them, not that I will shed any tears.

It would be interesting if Mark Meadows flips as well, and likely quite bad for Trump in that case.

1698161310797.png
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Among the Georgia RICO 19, there are seven lawyers in total. Three have pleaded guilty to lesser charges and turned State's evidence: Ken Chesbro, Jenna Ellis, and Sydney Powell. Four others remain with not guilty pleas, Rudi Guiliani, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, and Ray Smith III.

What are the possible reasons for these guilty pleas? Do they tell us anything about who else might plead guilty?

Among the lawyers, there is a strong incentive to avoid being found guilty of felony charges and risk losing their legal licenses. This trial could easily last 5 months. For those who don’t live in the Atlanta area, just paying for a place to live, let alone a legal defense team, will be prohibitively expensive. Some of these lawyers want to avoid going bankrupt while being able to earn a living afterwards.

Jenna Ellis is a Colorado area lawyer who was hired by the Trump Campaign because she appeared on Faux News as a Constitutional Law expert. It turns out she had no Constitutional Law experience, other than an undergraduate pre-law course she taught, and a self-published book on the subject. She had no history of federal law cases or court appearances. Yet, she was hired by Trump in November 2019 as a senior legal adviser, to become a member of what she described as an "elite strike force team" that attempted to overturn the 2020 presidential election. This is a classic Trump method of guaranteeing blind loyalty from employees – hire unqualified people to do a job. They will readily follow his orders without question, rather than loose their jobs. They are well aware that they are under-qualified and over-paid.

I would guess that Guiliani, Eastman, and Clark also fit these at least some of these descriptions. Can they afford to plea Not Guilty and then loose their trials?

It is said that Trump is not paying legal expenses for any of those lawyers.

Ray Smith III, a prominent Atlanta area business, real estate, election and probate litigation attorney with a national practice, is a possible exception. He was hired (is still?) by Trump to be his local attorney of record. Smith lives in the Atlanta area, but he also stands to loose quite a lot if he is found guilty of a felony in the RICO trial.

Any thoughts?
 
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M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Among the Georgia RICO 19, there are seven lawyers in total. Three have pleaded guilty to lesser charges and turned State's evidence: Ken Chesbro, Jenna Ellis, and Sydney Powell. Four others remain with not guilty pleas, Rudi Guiliani, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, and Ray Smith III.

What are the possible reasons for these guilty pleas? Do they tell us anything about who else might plead guilty?

Among the lawyers, there is a strong incentive to avoid being found guilty of felony charges and risk losing their legal licenses. This trial could easily last 5 months. For those who don’t live in the Atlanta area, just paying for a place to live, let alone a legal defense team, will be prohibitively expensive. Some of these lawyers want to avoid going bankrupt while being able to earn a living afterwards.

Jenna Ellis was a Colorado area lawyer who was hired by the Trump Campaign because she appeared on Faux News as a Constitutional Law expert. It turns out she had no Constitutional Law experience, other than an undergraduate pre-law course she taught, and a self-published book on the subject. She had no history of federal law cases or court appearances. Yet, she was hired by Trump in November 2019 as a senior legal adviser, to become a member of what she described as an "elite strike force team" that attempted to overturn the 2020 presidential election. This is a classic Trump method of guaranteeing blind loyalty from employees – hire unqualified people to do a job. They will readily follow his orders without question, rather than loose their jobs. They are well aware that they are under-qualified and over-paid.

I would guess that Guiliani, Eastman, and Clark also fit these at least some of these descriptions. Can they afford to plea Not Guilty and then loose their trials?

It is said that Trump is not paying legal expenses for any of those lawyers.

Ray Smith III, a prominent Atlanta area business, real estate, election and probate litigation attorney with a national practice, is a possible exception. He was hired (is still?) by Trump to be his local attorney of record. Smith lives in the Atlanta area, but he also stands to loose quite a lot if he is found guilty of a felony in the RICO trial.

Any thoughts?
There's no doubt that a trial and potential felony conviction/disbarment are strong incentives to plead guilty, provided that the plea deal avoids the more serious possible outcomes (e.g. jail time).

The charges against the various defendants vary quite a bit:


I have not read the entire indictment, but I'm sure that the strength of the evidence also varies.

It's unclear what plea deals the DA might have offered to the defendants who have not yet cut a deal. It's possible that the DA is not offering much to some defendants.

Ellis pleaded guilty to a felony, and she may face additional punishment by the Colorado bar:

>>>In March, Ms. Ellis admitted in a sworn statement in Colorado, her home state, that she had knowingly misrepresented the facts in several public claims that widespread voting fraud had occurred and had led to Mr. Trump’s defeat. Those admissions were part of an agreement Ms. Ellis made to accept public censure and settle disciplinary measures brought against her by state bar officials in Colorado.

Though she is still able to practice law in Colorado, at least one additional complaint about her professional conduct is expected.

“We do plan to file a new complaint in Colorado based on the guilty plea, so that the bar can assess the matter in light of her criminal conduct,” said Michael Teter, managing director of the 65 Project, a bipartisan legal watchdog group.<<<


Given that she's still facing disciplinary actions, her plea seems like a mixed bag. My general impression is that she really did have a change of heart in addition to being under the gun financially.

It seems like the pressure on Guiliani, Eastman, Clark, and Smith to cut a deal will be quite extreme, but it's possible that one or more might go down with the Trump ship out of loyalty (Guiliani might be in this camp). It's also possible that they perceive their chances at trial as being good. It can be difficult to assess a case if you're involved in it, and lawyers sometimes convince themselves that their own case is stronger than it really is.

Given his defense in the California bar proceedings, I've wondered if Eastman might be misjudging his odds.

>>>John Eastman defended his actions as one of Donald Trump’s post-election attorneys, arguing Tuesday the disciplinary charges that could cost him his law license are based on inaccurate accusations and that the California State Bar ignored the facts when charging him with ethical and legal violations.<<<


On the other hand, I'll admit that my own biases might be causing me to think that the DA's case is stronger than it really is. I try to avoid falling into bias, but it is really hard to see it in oneself (at least in my experience, YMMV).

Overall, my thought is that it is really hard to predict what will happen.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Hope the guy flip flops like a fish out of water and buries Trump.
Bing bing bing, chicken dinner, we have a winner!

>>>Former Trump White House chief of staff Mark Meadows secured an immunity deal with special counsel Jack Smith in order to testify before a grand jury in the election interference case, ABC News reported. . . .

Meadows reportedly told the grand jury that after former President Trump’s election loss, he repeatedly told the him that his claims of widespread fraud were baseless.

That testimony would counter a claim Trump has repeated since losing the election — and that his lawyers defended as recently as Monday night. . . . According to ABC, in mid-December Meadows informed Trump that his then-attorney Rudy Giuliani had failed to find any evidence to back the campaign’s claims.<<<


We may need to put the jackpot on hold to see if he does actually bury Trump, but that sure looks like a good possibility.

Captain Obvious says: "This does not look good for Trump!"
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thank you Capt. Obvious!

I had given up on Meadows, despite all those rumors about him meeting with Jack Smith. I had no respect for him since his days as a FreeDumb Caucus guy in the House of Reps.

I imagine that Meadows was one of those unindicted co-conspirators in the Federal case. I must remind myself to never play poker with Jack Smith.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Trump was fined $10000 for violating a gag order after the judge said he did not believe Trump when put on the stand. Next time will be worse, judge said.

>>>A New York judge has fined Donald Trump$10,000 for what the judge said was a violation of a gag order barring the former president from talking about court staff during a civil trial in which he is accused of fraudulently inflating the value of his properties.

The fine came after Judge Arthur Engoron unexpectedly called Trump to the witness stand to explain, under oath, a comment he made earlier in the day.Trump’s surprise testimony only lasted a few minutes, but in that time he failed to convince the judge of either his honesty or good intentions. …<<<

 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
It's unclear what plea deals the DA might have offered to the defendants who have not yet cut a deal. It's possible that the DA is not offering much to some defendants.
According to unnamed sources cited in this news report, several of the big fish (Giuliani, Meadows, and Eastman) have not been offered plea deals in the Georgia case. They might be going down with the Trump ship whether they want to or not.

>>>To date, prosecutors have not extended a plea deal to Rudy Giuliani, a key co-defendant in the case and one of Trump’s most outspoken attorneys in 2020, according to the first source with knowledge of the prosecution strategy. At this stage, prosecutors are unlikely to do so. Giuliani has long been considered as a top tier of Trump co-defendants due to his alleged role in orchestrating the sprawling conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia and beyond. . . .

As of now, former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows has also not been offered a plea deal in the Georgia case, a separate source with knowledge of his specific case in Georgia told CNN. . . .

John Eastman, who is also considered one of Trump’s most high-profile co-defendants, has not been offered a plea deal either, his lawyer told CNN.<<<

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/politics/fulton-county-da-is-discussing-plea-deals-with-at-least-5-more-trump-co-defendants/index.html

I wouldn't be surprised if the DA eventually offers Giuliani a deal. On the one hand, the DA undoubtedly wants to "nail" him because he was one of the main actors. On the other hand, if he were to cooperate and testify against Trump it might blow Trump's defenses out of the water (just before Trump goes down with the ship). Timing is undoubtedly an issue Giuliani's case. A rush to cut a plea deal with him could be interpreted by Trump's lawyers as a sign of a weak case.

Apparently, at least one lawyer turned down a plea deal. From the CNN article:

>>>Pro-Trump lawyer Robert Cheeley is among those who have been offered a plea deal in the Georgia case but, according to his lawyer, turned it down.<<<

The CNN article is interesting, but it's not clear how reliable the sources are. There could be a little Indian poker going on.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Interesting to see how Trump daughter handles the questions she will face UNDER OATH. Will she lie to protect her dad, or do whats right, we will see.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting to see how Trump daughter handles the questions she will face UNDER OATH. Will she lie to protect her dad, or do whats right, we will see.
No, she will have a convenient memory loss.
 

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