that dreaded center speaker

[MrBoat]

I am somewhat exempted because I listen only to music and it's up close. If there was a center speaker, I would have to use it for a footrest. My main speakers/MLP is about a 5ft triangle with the speakers toed-in nearly 45 degrees. I have found that the center image with most reputable brand, modern speakers, is otherwise inescapable.

When I am working on equipment, I like to test it point blank and let it rip. Even right up in between the speakers the center image is not lost. The first realization when I set the Tempests in the actual room was that I could not find the speakers on either side, even when putting my head right up to each one to make sure both were actually playing and the center image was still relatively between the two. It sounds so good in fact, I can stand and listen like this thru 4 or 5 CDs. One would think that the center image would completely fall apart in this arrangement, but it doesn't.

Even budget type speakers hold up to this arrangement.

I always felt that the "audiophiles" in question was between 2-channel audiophiles and the HT variant. I thought all 5 channel and above users needed the center. All of my HT buddies (I'm the only 2.1, or near field listener) swear by their center channel speakers. They are considerably further back in a more traditional HT sweet spot. My sweet spot for phantom center ends up being from about 3-9ft back from speakers, even with them toed-in so much.

Otherwise, I really have no opinion on the third speaker. It would just be inconveniently redundant in my situation.

 

[ben_]

Boat, my experience matches yours, almost 100%.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I am somewhat exempted because I listen only to music and it's up close. If there was a center speaker, I would have to use it for a footrest. My main speakers/MLP is about a 5ft triangle with the speakers toed-in nearly 45 degrees. I have found that the center image with most reputable brand, modern speakers, is otherwise inescapable.

When I am working on equipment, I like to test it point blank and let it rip. Even right up in between the speakers the center image is not lost. The first realization when I set the Tempests in the actual room was that I could not find the speakers on either side, even when putting my head right up to each one to make sure both were actually playing and the center image was still relatively between the two. It sounds so good in fact, I can stand and listen like this thru 4 or 5 CDs. One would think that the center image would completely fall apart in this arrangement, but it doesn't.

Even budget type speakers hold up to this arrangement.

I always felt that the "audiophiles" in question was between 2-channel audiophiles and the HT variant. I thought all 5 channel and above users needed the center. All of my HT buddies (I'm the only 2.1, or near field listener) swear by their center channel speakers. They are considerably further back in a more traditional HT sweet spot. My sweet spot for phantom center ends up being from about 3-9ft back from speakers, even with them toed-in so much.

Otherwise, I really have no opinion on the third speaker. It would just be inconveniently redundant in my situation.

Man, it’s sure good to see you post those S-38’s. Really miss ‘em.

 

[MrBoat]

Man, it’s sure good to see you post those S-38’s. Really miss ‘em.

They ended up in a good home and they are well taken care of and coveted, even. I am still thinking of making a custom set of cabinets for them with real wood veneer. To me, they are pretty much the sweet spot sensitivity range at 89db and the world could use more 8" 3-way monitor types, IMO. These with my two Dayton Reference Series 12" subs are a match made in heaven.

I reckon you can vouch for these not needing a center when used as 2 channel. Once I really got to spend some time with just those, I was so pleasantly surprised. They have certainly helped further reinforce my penchant for near field listening. I am forever grateful for what ended up being a favor.

 

[VonMagnum]

I've got three identical front speakers and use a form of dialog lift to raise the virtual soundstage upward to seem to come from the screen. The mains sound 98% identical in phantom or center mode (there's an Atmos demo made by someone on AVS that's also on YouTube in binaural) that uses divergence in real time to switch his voice from discrete center to phantom in a sliding step. I can barely hear any difference at all. Similarly, switching with 5.1 music, they sound the same to me.

From the MLP, using Center Spread sounds the same, but it's definitely worse off-axis as it's basically sending copies to the L/R mains bringing the dreaded Precedence Effect into play and pulling the soundstage towards the nearest speaker (bad). The only reason people like Center Spread is they have inferior centers compared to their mains. Contrary to Gene's advice, it should never ever be used when you have properly aligned identical L/C/R mains, IMO.

You'd do just as well to turn off the center instead as you're just duplicating its content and if it sounds worse from the center, it'll sound better yet with the center fully removed, not just duplicated! I call that mode the worst "feature" Dolby ever made as it's just trying to disguise bad center speakers. It should just remove it entirely instead.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've got three identical front speakers and use a form of dialog lift to raise the virtual soundstage upward to seem to come from the screen. The mains sound 98% identical in phantom or center mode (there's an Atmos demo made by someone on AVS that's also on YouTube in binaural) that uses divergence in real time to switch his voice from discrete center to phantom in a sliding step. I can barely hear any difference at all. Similarly, switching with 5.1 music, they sound the same to me.

From the MLP, using Center Spread sounds the same, but it's definitely worse off-axis as it's basically sending copies to the L/R mains bringing the dreaded Precedence Effect into play and pulling the soundstage towards the nearest speaker (bad). The only reason people like Center Spread is they have inferior centers compared to their mains. Contrary to Gene's advice, it should never ever be used when you have properly aligned identical L/C/R mains, IMO.

You'd do just as well to turn off the center instead as you're just duplicating its content and if it sounds worse from the center, it'll sound better yet with the center fully removed, not just duplicated! I call that mode the worst "feature" Dolby ever made as it's just trying to disguise bad center speakers. It should just remove it entirely instead.

I agree with you 100% about not using center spread. My experience is the same as yours. Center spread totally collapses the sound stage on my rig. I suspect its true advantage is that, as you say, it helps disguise a poor center speaker, by distributing the center channel between three speakers to cover the deficiencies of the center channel speaker. Center spread just ruins my system.

I know Gene says it should always be used, even that a system is not properly set up without it. I vehemently disagree with him. I suspect his center speaker is not a good as he thinks it is. From pictures I have seen on of it, I consider the driver layout inappropriate for a center speaker.

 

[VonMagnum]

Yes, if center spread sounds the same or worse from the MLP then there is zero reason to use it as it will only hurt off-axis seats by pulling to the left or right.

I think most people still use "center channel" speakers that are horizontal. They were really designed to sit on top of the old giant CRT rear projector TVs that were popular in the 1980s and 1990s and furniture cabinets and console TVs as you couldn't possibly put a floor standing speaker there.

I would have thought that with the advent of wall mounted TVs and the like or projection screens that either are acoustically transparent or are mounted higher than at eye level (personally I like to recline all the time watching TV and movies so my screen/layout and upstairs wall mounted TV are mounted higher so they are aligned with recliners in a reclined position) that floor standing towers or at least bookshelf sized speakers (whether wall mounted or not) would have largely displaced the use of horizontally aligned center speakers.

Yet I see people posting pictures of their systems all the time where they could easily have three identical front speakers, but don't, probably because there's still this push by speaker makers to sell "center channel speakers" and average consumers have no clue they'd be better off with a matching center.

Some speaker manufacturers still only sell in pairs, making it more difficult to get three identical mains without having an extra lying around.

Audiophiles spending a fortune on their mains often can't really budget/afford a 3rd speaker regardless because they'd just move up to the next higher model instead so small wonder they embrace a cheapo center speaker when stereo is their priority. Some speakers are just too huge even with At screens, etc to use the same in the center easily (My Carver ribbons in my living room are 6' tall, for example and I do mostly stereo there so I make do with a phantom center and used to use an Energy brand center when I had guests in my late 1990s setup (57" Panasonic HDTV and bipolar surrounds for 5.1).

Now I've got an admittedly getting ridiculous 21 PSB speakers (well 23 at the moment as I'm experimenting with bottom speakers for DTS and surround outputs off Scatmos units) in the home theater, but they all use the same or extremely similar (upgraded) drivers from PSB.

The sound is absolutely holographic now with 360 perfect panning above and below. It's like having ghosts pass through me in Atmos, X abd Auro. Even Neural X pulls it off. I watched Hellbound (Hellraiser II) in 5.1 + Neural X from Arrow's remastered disc and it was shocking for that older movie. The chains in the confrontation scene between Chanard and Pinhead were dangling real as you please sounding right around my head extending up to the ceiling, for example.

Not only does Goldeneye now sound 5x more immersive than it did on my old 5.1 system (consistent front-to-back pans), but I'd swear it was in Atmos in scenes with the helicopter and even when Sean Bean's voice cones over the train's intercom to tell James he has the same 5 minutes he gave him, it comes completely from the ceiling in the front 1/4 of the room.

 

[Eppie]

The horizontal centre is simply out of practicality. Even with the TV wall mounted, most people place their components below the TV in a single cabinet, shelf unit or rack unit. With a vertical centre, there are some options, like a single shelf unit to one side of the centre and maybe the sub on the other side, or two single column component racks on either side of the centre, but you rarely see that. Most people want the extra storage or display space that a wider console offers, or have the TV on the console. If I was to build my own console, I would give consideration to making space in the centre for a third matching bookshelf speaker, but that would not only look odd to most people, but the centre would not be free standing like the mains, which could cause issues. I think that's why 3 vertical mains is more the realm of dedicated theatre rooms where the components reside away from the screen.

 

[VonMagnum]

Obviously, some rooms will not be able to use a bookshelf or tower for the center, but I imagine the number of rooms that won't support it without modification is far lower than the number of rooms using a center simply "because they sell a center so you must use that" mentality.

The idea a bookshelf speaker would look "odd" while a honking horizontal center speaker would not sounds very odd to me. As long as the front baffle is even with or extends slightly beyond the console frame, it should perform fine.

As for no room for a center with two consoles or racks....

 

[VonMagnum]

Sorry about the image duplicates, but my account has been screwed up for literally years and there's apparently no maintainers here. It kept saying "Oops, there's an error, try again."

Now it won't let me delete them and it just errors and errors and errors. Not my connection, browser or anything like that. Nothing I can do. I've emailed, pm'd on a different site even. They deny they've screwed my account up on purpose, but the mere fact they ignore all requests to delete it then so I can try a new one tells me otherwise.

Edit: I think I finally managed to delete the duplicate images after 30 minutes of trying...

 

[TLS Guy]

Obviously, some rooms will not be able to use a bookshelf or tower for the center, but I imagine the number of rooms that won't support it without modification is far lower than the number of rooms using a center simply "because they sell a center so you must use that" mentality.

The idea a bookshelf speaker would look "odd" while a honking horizontal center speaker would not sounds very odd to me. As long as the front baffle is even with or extends slightly beyond the console frame, it should perform fine.

As for no room for a center with two consoles or racks....

View attachment 62688

I think those speakers are too close together. That is a common error, and leads to comb filtering and also a narrow sound stage. I think you would be far better moving the mains much further apart.

I prefer the center above the screen in my room. Heads are nearer the top of the screen generally, than the bottom.

Also I had the ability to design a speaker specific to center use, but also match the mains. This was the most difficult to design and took significant research and experiment. I came up with a coaxial TL based through wall design, sloped to the listening area.

The top driver is the "fill" driver.

It is bi-amped active, and has continuously variable BSC that is optimal for position and room.

This all contributes to a believable 3D soundstage that is seamless.

I think center speakers need significant thought and are difficult to design. The have different design parameters than the other speakers. To produce realistic natural speech is perhaps the greatest of all challenges to the speaker designer. If you get that right, then everything else is more likely to fall into place. The center can not be massive, but it still has as much, if not more heavy lifting to do than the rest. It has to stay clean when singers are center stage, and reproduce the piano perfectly in the most tempestuous of concertos and in multiple scenarios. At the same time it must blend seamlessly with all the other speakers.

 

[VonMagnum]

I think those speakers are too close together. That is a common error, and leads to comb filtering and also a narrow sound stage.

They're 6 feet apart in a 12.5' wide room (24 degrees from MLP sitting up, 22 degrees reclined), well within Dolby specs. They need to be there to handle panned dialog in some movies and aligning sound effects to the matching event on the screen (e.g. Harry Potter flying car in the 2nd movie lands right on the left side of the screen and so does the sound effect for it). A narrow soundstage is not an issue due to the front wide mode (see below), but even without that turned on, out of phase effects extend outward beyond the speakers and Sonic Holography (which I have as an option for stereo sources) expands it to about 100-110 degrees (360 in multichannel stereo mode). You can't get any less narrow than that!

If you're worried about mostly inaudible combing effects, you'd really hate the fact I use the front heights for a L/C/R soundstage and dialog lift effect by mixing them into the height channels (I got the idea from my old Yamaha AVR that had it as a DSP option; it was amazing so I recreated it externally).

Oh, but it doesn't stop there. Front Wides (nearly against the walls and about 11' apart at their grills) are currently passive summed/mixed so in stereo mode, they act as a wide stereo mode (Monoprice has a similar option on their HTP-1 AVP) when left engaged (OMG! More combing potential!). The soundstage is enormous (opposite of narrow) and again, even more so with Carver's Sonic Holography engaged (image extends and wraps around to about 110 degrees with no surrounds in use including sounds imaging a few inches in front of my face at times). That took extreme precision to achieve with multiple speakers active. It does the entire room in multichannel stereo mode, making many stereo albums sound like 5.1 or even 7.1 surround recordings. Some even somehow manage height effects (possibly due to the dialog lift height speakers being active and interacting with crosstalk cancelation).

I think you would be far better moving the mains much further apart.

Nope. See above.

I prefer the center above the screen in my room. Heads are nearer the top of the screen generally, than the bottom.

That would be a big no-no with Atmos/Auro/X since front height effects go there (and the optional center height speaker in Auro-3D and DTS:X layouts). I use dialog lift to place the dialog to sound like it's coming from the screen itself, not above or below it). That sounds the most natural to my ears.

Also I had the ability to design a speaker specific to center use, but also match the mains. This was the most difficult to design and took significant research and experiment.

That sounds like some real creative fun, but it's so much simpler to just use matching speakers, IMO.

 

[TLS Guy]

They're 6 feet apart in a 12.5' wide room (24 degrees from MLP sitting up, 22 degrees reclined), well within Dolby specs. They need to be there to handle panned dialog in some movies and aligning sound effects to the matching event on the screen (e.g. Harry Potter flying car in the 2nd movie lands right on the left side of the screen and so does the sound effect for it). A narrow soundstage is not an issue due to the front wide mode (see below), but even without that turned on, out of phase effects extend outward beyond the speakers and Sonic Holography (which I have as an option for stereo sources) expands it to about 100-110 degrees (360 in multichannel stereo mode). You can't get any less narrow than that!

If you're worried about mostly inaudible combing effects, you'd really hate the fact I use the front heights for a L/C/R soundstage and dialog lift effect by mixing them into the height channels (I got the idea from my old Yamaha AVR that had it as a DSP option; it was amazing so I recreated it externally).

Oh, but it doesn't stop there. Front Wides (nearly against the walls and about 11' apart at their grills) are currently passive summed/mixed so in stereo mode, they act as a wide stereo mode (Monoprice has a similar option on their HTP-1 AVP) when left engaged (OMG! More combing potential!). The soundstage is enormous (opposite of narrow) and again, even more so with Carver's Sonic Holography engaged (image extends and wraps around to about 110 degrees with no surrounds in use including sounds imaging a few inches in front of my face at times). That took extreme precision to achieve with multiple speakers active. It does the entire room in multichannel stereo mode, making many stereo albums sound like 5.1 or even 7.1 surround recordings. Some even somehow manage height effects (possibly due to the dialog lift height speakers being active and interacting with crosstalk cancelation).



Nope. See above.



That would be a big no-no with Atmos/Auro/X since front height effects go there (and the optional center height speaker in Auro-3D and DTS:X layouts). I use dialog lift to place the dialog to sound like it's coming from the screen itself, not above or below it). That sounds the most natural to my ears.



That sounds like some real creative fun, but it's so much simpler to just use matching speakers, IMO.

What I found was that matching speakers are not the ideal solution. The screen can not be lower, and if the center were below the screen it would be an acoustic disaster.

There is plenty of height above the main driver which is right above the screen. In addition there is also a lot of height left to the ceiling and Atmos works very well.

I don't watch many movies. Concerts and operas are what I play in the main. So I don't care of the sound is much wider than the screen which it is. I love that glorious and wide 3D sound stage that system can produce. Prom season started a week ago, and the BBC are doing the best job ever of the audio this year, and they are really bringing the sound of the Royal Albert Hall to the living room, in all its glory this year.

 

[VonMagnum]

Having the center at the same height as the mains is an acoustic disaster? Sorry, I don't follow...at all. It seems to me having the center soundstage well above the left and right soundstage creates a vertical anomaly in the center. I want a coherent front soundstage, particularly for music. I mean if you don't watch many movies, why would you want to hamstring your audio even slightly?

Besides, as I said, I use a dialog lift feature to raise the L/C/R soundstage to phantom image as if coming from the screen while not being blocked by any screen. The front heights have the same drivers as the mains (they simply lack the 2nd woofer for extended bass to 30Hz and cut-off at 50Hz, well below the 80Hz boundary). As for ultra-wide stereo positioning, Trinnov doesn't recommend separation between any given pair of speakers go beyond 50 degrees, when possible. Wendy Carlos Surround site suggests going beyond 60 degrees is where phantom imaging begins to fall apart. With home theater, one has the center speaker to ensure that wide placed L/R speakers can be very far apart indeed, but that doesn't apply to stereo material played back through the system without the center. With the traditional recommendation of 30 degrees from the MLP, the mains are already 60 degrees apart from each other (mine are at the optimal 50 degrees with front wides able to widen the soundstage to 100 degrees apart if desired.

My Home Theater Speaker Angles

Overheads (Sitting)
25, 75, 125, 155

C, Front, Front Wide, Side, Side2, Rear
0, 25, 55, 110, 155, 166 <- Sitting
0, 22, 51, 107, 150, 165 <- Reclined

Distance Apart In Degrees
25-30-55-45-11
Overheads:
25-50-50-30-25

 

[TLS Guy]

Having the center at the same height as the mains is an acoustic disaster? Sorry, I don't follow...at all. It seems to me having the center soundstage well above the left and right soundstage creates a vertical anomaly in the center. I want a coherent front soundstage, particularly for music. I mean if you don't watch many movies, why would you want to hamstring your audio even slightly?

Besides, as I said, I use a dialog lift feature to raise the L/C/R soundstage to phantom image as if coming from the screen while not being blocked by any screen. The front heights have the same drivers as the mains (they simply lack the 2nd woofer for extended bass to 30Hz and cut-off at 50Hz, well below the 80Hz boundary). As for ultra-wide stereo positioning, Trinnov doesn't recommend separation between any given pair of speakers go beyond 50 degrees, when possible. Wendy Carlos Surround site suggests going beyond 60 degrees is where phantom imaging begins to fall apart. With home theater, one has the center speaker to ensure that wide placed L/R speakers can be very far apart indeed, but that doesn't apply to stereo material played back through the system without the center. With the traditional recommendation of 30 degrees from the MLP, the mains are already 60 degrees apart from each other (mine are at the optimal 50 degrees with front wides able to widen the soundstage to 100 degrees apart if desired.

My Home Theater Speaker Angles

Overheads (Sitting)
25, 75, 125, 155

C, Front, Front Wide, Side, Side2, Rear
0, 25, 55, 110, 155, 166 <- Sitting
0, 22, 51, 107, 150, 165 <- Reclined

Distance Apart In Degrees
25-30-55-45-11
Overheads:
25-50-50-30-25

Of course it would be hopeless to have the center below the TV. It would not cover the room, and be far too low.

In any cases voices come form nearer the top of the screen than the bottom as a rule. With the center where it is and the location of the speakers in the mains, the center speaker actually pulls the acoustic center very close to the middle of the TV. You never really localize to any speaker in this rig. It produces a very realistic and uniform sound stage. Every seat has excellent SQ, and good dialog.

 

[VonMagnum]

Of course it would be hopeless to have the center below the TV. It would not cover the room, and be far too low.

I've said at least three times now I use a DIALOG LIFT system (actually a full front soundstage lift). That takes care of the rarely used 2nd and 3rd row seats (giving the "above the screen" treatment you claim to favor for those rows (L/R aren't blocked for those seats so I give the center an extra 1.5dB to compensate for losing half the lift effect in the stored "compromise" settings I use when someone sits there so it sounds even).

The front row is paramount as it's used 95% of the time. All levels are within 3dB (most within 1dB) with that setting and perfect for front row only or 2nd row only settings I've stored in the AVR memory for instant recall (I like to listen to some Atmos music from the middle of the room as it gives a very different perspective).

That doesn't mean the screen would block having the mains just above ear level in all rooms (not everyone uses a lower mounted screen; mine is set for reclined viewing for example and some use smaller OLED screens, etc that simply aren't taking up all available space). There's always acoustically transparent screens if one has the room behind the screen (I've got built-in bookcases and a window to deal with as I didn't build the room from scratch so I did the best I could. I think it sounds phenomenal, but I'm always looking for any tweaks that will increase the holographic illusion for Auro-3D/Atmos music/movies or DTS:X movies.

I'm experimenting with floor level speakers from the Scatmos surround (out of phase) ambient outputs for the front row at the moment, for example. Thus far, it works great for live recordings as ear level doesn't necessarily exist with live music. Ambient reflections can often exist all the way to the floor, particularly in front of you. I'd like to experiment with Front Wide Scatmos out of phase outputs for the floor between rows and I'm thinking of going full 19-channel discrete, which with Scatmos extraction would allow me to experiment with it for ambience effects

Obviously, you are free to do whatever you want with your room. It looks very nice. I'm sure you enjoy it.

I have a separate 2-channel music system upstairs with 6' Carver "Amazing" Ribbons using fully customized active crossovers, twin 10" bass drivers (flat to 26Hz) and available turntable on top of the usual digital sources. Until recently, it sounded best for two channel music and still excels at it, but the multi-channel Sonic Holography downstairs is like having stereo in 360 surround without the "fake" quality of Dolby surround processing and the like (Auro's upmixer also does a nice job with expanding ambience without altering the traditional stereo soundstage.

 

[isolar8001]

I've said at least three times now I use a DIALOG LIFT system (actually a full front soundstage lift).

Holy hell man, be nice....TLSGuy was very near the great beyond a week ago, and knows what he is doing more than any human I've ever seen.

 

[VonMagnum]

Holy hell man, be nice....TLSGuy was very near the great beyond a week ago, and knows what he is doing more than any human I've ever seen.

Sorry. I didn't realize his mother was reading the thread.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Sorry. I didn't realize his mother was reading the thread.

Huh. You are a dikk everywhere you go.

 

[Danzilla31]

I agree with you 100% about not using center spread. My experience is the same as yours. Center spread totally collapses the sound stage on my rig. I suspect its true advantage is that, as you say, it helps disguise a poor center speaker, by distributing the center channel between three speakers to cover the deficiencies of the center channel speaker. Center spread just ruins my system.

I know Gene says it should always be used, even that a system is not properly set up without it. I vehemently disagree with him. I suspect his center speaker is not a good as he thinks it is. From pictures I have seen on of it, I consider the driver layout inappropriate for a center speaker.

I can't get into center spread as well. I feel like for the issues that you and @VonMagnum mentioned above and also I feel like you lose a little bit of imaging for the wider soundstage.

I do love music with the Auro upmixer it has some of that same effect but it's more enjoyable for some reason to me. I think it widens the soundstage but does it on a different way then center spread. Still thats just for fun critical listening is always for me in Dolby no center spread.

One thing I've noticed with Dolby when center spread is off is it not only brings in that center channel information but it also boosts the center channel a bit over the other channels which I love for movies.