ASR review of Pioneer VSX-LX505 (Onkyo RZ50)

[lovinthehd]

Thats good. A few manufacturers send ASR stuff for review. However that is not what I consider working with the industry. Where is the work by ASR that Gene does when measurements don't add up?

Amir has often mentioned checking with the brands for unusual results, but sometimes simply gets no response so goes ahead with what he's got.

In addition to the industry examples mentioned, Buckeye Amps was basically born at ASR, and is one of the better values for Hypex/Purifi module based amps. I don't keep a list going, tho. Gene's goals with working with vendors is perhaps a bit different; Amir has no monetization goals....the funding is from his pocket and the forum members, not industry (aside from a unit donated here and there for testing which he will call out when that happens). I wouldn't say Audioholics works with the whole of the industry either, but has good relations with some as does Amir. Then again much of the "industry" tends to work instead with the fluff vlogs/magazines. There are otoh a lot more actual industry members in the forum there than here, too....

 

[asere]

Is Dirac night and day from Audussey XT32?

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[dlaloum]

There was a definite substantial improvement to the midrange and voices/dialogue moving from my XT32 Integra DTR70.4 to my Dirac Live Integra DRX3.4.

Could the same improvement have been achieved with one of the current Denon X3/X4 AVR's using the Multeq-X app - quite likely....

But the default Audyssey vs default Dirac was no competition, Dirac won hands down. (my experience, my setup, my room...)

 

[lovinthehd]

A

Is Dirac night and day from Audussey XT32?

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Some say yes to some significant difference, some say not so much (altho so far the Dirac seems to be leading on the personal subjective comments basis). Depends on your use/working with the tools and your room/setup. Day and night difference, would be hard to believe, tho. What is a night and day difference in audio particularly, tho? (aside from on/off?)

 

[asere]

A

Some say yes to some significant difference, some say not so much (altho so far the Dirac seems to be leading on the personal subjective comments basis). Depends on your use/working with the tools and your room/setup. Day and night difference, would be hard to believe, tho. What is a night and day difference in audio particularly, tho? (aside from on/off?)

True. With the 505, does it come with the mic to do Dirac calibration like other receivers?

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[gene]

Hey All......Over on ASR, Amir has just done a devastating review of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 (and in turn the Onkyo RZ50)
His claim is that power gets reduced to 20 watts per channel after 35 seconds. Just check this out....thoughts ?? TIA.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...

www.audiosciencereview.com

A test condition that will never happen in real life. Try measuring a Class D Pascal amp. It doesn't like continuous sine waves much but man do those amps sound stellar with tons of dynamic range and output.

 

[dlaloum]

True. With the 505, does it come with the mic to do Dirac calibration like other receivers?

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Yes it comes with a "Puck" mic - which is bulk/batch calibrated.

People who want a greater degree of certainty, opt for an individually calibrated mic which connects to the PC rather than the AVR (such as the UMIK1).

 

[Trell]

A test condition that will never happen in real life. Try measuring a Class D Pascal amp. It doesn't like continuous sine waves much but man do those amps sound stellar with tons of dynamic range and output.

The power test was for two channels only, so not an all-channel-test. Besides there are many measurements of other class D amplifiers on ASR that does not give this very low output and otherwise stops further testing.

So, sounds stellar with tons of dynamic range and output but can’t be measured to verify this?

 

[gene]

The power test was for two channels only, so not an all-channel-test. Besides there are many measurements of other class D amplifiers on ASR that does not give this very low output and otherwise stops further testing.

So, sounds stellar with tons of dynamic range and output but can’t be measured to verify this?

some Class D amps are very tricky to measure properly using typical sinewave testing. It's a gray area which is why I never listen audio gear with measurements but with real world testing. If I saw the Pascal measurements before listening to the actual amp, I'd likely write it off as mediocre. That couldn't be further from the truth. ASR broad brushes product performance with measurements that often don't correlate to audibility.

This is similar to people thinking good CTA-2034 measurements guarantees good sound. It doesn't necessarily correlate and anyone telling you otherwise lacks experience.

 

[Trell]

some Class D amps are very tricky to measure properly using typical sinewave testing. It's a gray area which is why I never listen audio gear with measurements but with real world testing. If I saw the Pascal measurements before listening to the actual amp, I'd likely write it off as mediocre. That couldn't be further from the truth. ASR broad brushes product performance with measurements that often don't correlate to audibility.

This is similar to people thinking good CTA-2034 measurements guarantees good sound. It doesn't necessarily correlate and anyone telling you otherwise lacks experience.

This is not, as I wrote, an ACD test but plain stereo where the receiver breaks down during measurements. Old tests as you very well know.

That a receiver/amplifier sounds great but can’t be measured, if that’s what you meant, is not something I subscribe to.

 

[dlaloum]

This is not, as I wrote, an ACD test but plain stereo where the receiver breaks down during measurements. Old tests as you very well know.

That a receiver/amplifier sounds great but can’t be measured, if that’s what you meant, is not something I subscribe to.

Correlation of measurements to audibility is a highly contentious issue!

In some areas, the entire market has moved so far past the threshold of audibility, that decisions based on specs become nonsensical... eg: SINAD... with a threshold of audibility for THD somewhere well below 50db, and for noise below 60db... the competition between 105db SINAD and 95db SINAD (or 75db SINAD for that matter!) - is problematic.

Yes the measurements do tell us various things - but they frequently don't tell us what people think they do! (in the classic words from "Princess Bride" : I do not think it means what you think it means !)

 

[lovinthehd]

f

Correlation of measurements to audibility is a highly contentious issue!

In some areas, the entire market has moved so far past the threshold of audibility, that decisions based on specs become nonsensical... eg: SINAD... with a threshold of audibility for THD somewhere well below 50db, and for noise below 60db... the competition between 105db SINAD and 95db SINAD (or 75db SINAD for that matter!) - is problematic.

Yes the measurements do tell us various things - but they frequently don't tell us what people think they do! (in the classic words from "Princess Bride" : I do not think it means what you think it means !)

Do we really need people thinking they can translate particular specs into audibility in the first place?

 

[asere]

I'm new to Dirac. Does the lx505 have the best sub calibration? I've read something about depending on the Dirac version, you get full sub bandwidth or speakers vs limited.

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[dlaloum]

I'm new to Dirac. Does the lx505 have the best sub calibration? I've read something about depending on the Dirac version, you get full sub bandwidth or speakers vs limited.

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The LX505 has full frequency range Dirac.

Some brands have provided Dirac version that limit the correction range to the lower frequencies (below 500Hz I think?) - although those are optionally upgradebale to full range.

So yes it includes the subs in EQ.

 

[asere]

The LX505 has full frequency range Dirac.

Some brands have provided Dirac version that limit the correction range to the lower frequencies (below 500Hz I think?) - although those are optionally upgradebale to full range.

So yes it includes the subs in EQ.

I just ordered it on sale. Will see how it holds next to my x4200w.

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[gene]

This is not, as I wrote, an ACD test but plain stereo where the receiver breaks down during measurements. Old tests as you very well know.

That a receiver/amplifier sounds great but can’t be measured, if that’s what you meant, is not something I subscribe to.

Yes I'm well aware. I brought this up about Integra long before the ASR measurements of Pioneer/Onkyo.

Integra DRX-4.3 9.2 Channel AV Receiver Review

The Integra DRX-4.3 AV receiver sports the latest in HD audio/video with 9 amplified channels on-board, expandable to a 7.1.4 speaker configuration. Our review discusses its performance and shortcomings.

www.audioholics.com

Onkyo has very aggressive protection circuits and this was from a linear AB design. I did note it wasn't well suited for 4 ohm speakers but in real world, they drove moderately sensitive 8 ohm speakers just fine. If the LX505/RZ50 were as bad as ASR made them out to be, they wouldn't be among the most popular AVRs on the market with 1000s of satisfied owners. It's important to keep things into perspective and it's absolutely ridiculous to run a receiver amplifier for 35 sec or however long that test was and expect it not to shut down or thermally limit. This is a classic case of gotcha "journalism".

 

[dlaloum]

Yes I'm well aware. I brought this up about Integra long before the ASR measurements of Pioneer/Onkyo.

Integra DRX-4.3 9.2 Channel AV Receiver Review

The Integra DRX-4.3 AV receiver sports the latest in HD audio/video with 9 amplified channels on-board, expandable to a 7.1.4 speaker configuration. Our review discusses its performance and shortcomings.

www.audioholics.com

Onkyo has very aggressive protection circuits and this was from a linear AB design. I did note it wasn't well suited for 4 ohm speakers but in real world, they drove moderately sensitive 8 ohm speakers just fine. If the LX505/RZ50 were as bad as ASR made them out to be, they wouldn't be among the most popular AVRs on the market with 1000s of satisfied owners. It's important to keep things into perspective and it's absolutely ridiculous to run a receiver amplifier for 35 sec or however long that test was and expect it not to shut down or thermally limit. This is a classic case of gotcha "journalism".

To be fair to Onkyo - traditionally, their flagships have handled 4ohm nominal speakers very well... but the RZ50/LX505 is not a flagship model, but an upper mass-market model.

The later released RZ70 and LX805 (and 8.4) are in the Flagship range, and although I have not seen any tests yet, I would expect that those would handle such loads without any trouble.
In past generations I have owned past equivalents to these - Onkyo SR876 and Integra DTR70.4, both handled my 4 ohm speakers with 1.6 ohm "dips" - very well.

I currently have the Integra DRX 3.4 - and it did not sound good on my speakers - but used as a hybrid pre-pro - with a decent power amp on front L/C/R - the end result is excellent, with the 3.4 driving surrounds and heights.

So people should be aware of the limitations of the mid range models - they are designed for 8ohm speakers - can theoretically handle 4 ohm speakers, but only if they are "true" 4 ohm, and not the sort that have 4 ohm nominal with dips dropping substantially down below 2ohm....

 

[asere]

Yes it comes with a "Puck" mic - which is bulk/batch calibrated.

People who want a greater degree of certainty, opt for an individually calibrated mic which connects to the PC rather than the AVR (such as the UMIK1).

Isn't the puck mic considered bad for calibration vs the tower one?

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[everettT]

Isn't the puck mic considered bad for calibration vs the tower one?

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Individually calibrated mics are always preferred if one has a choice.

 

[asere]

Is the IMAX Enhanced sound mode any good or plain marketing?

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