Yamaha GT-5000 Turntable Overview on Audioholics YouTube Channel

[vqworks]

This is a re-post of my comments on the subject video:

Hi Gene, I've seen my fair share of videos on your Audioholics channel but I have to say that this video is loaded with information. You asked Mr. Kumazawa some very useful and pointed questions and his explanations were excellent in my opinion, given the condensed length of the video. Having grown up with vinyl since the early 70s and having read many objective technical reviews (with measurements, of course) from major magazines, my impression is that the GT-5000 definitely stands out among most turntables in today's market, regardless of price. The bulk of today's turntables, including fairly expensive ones, are in many respects stripped down versions of designs from the 80s and are technically inferior; not this turntable!

I wanted to address some of the points mentioned. Sorry for appearing preachy and being long-winded. Take it for what it's worth.

1) The Straight Tonearm Design
Mr. Kumazawa hit the nail on the head. All else being equal, straight tonearms can trace grooves more accurately. The laws of geometry dictate that curved arms add mass and instability. Lower mass increases the ability to track and a straight tonearm increases rigidity to reduce resonances. This has been proven in a laboratory study performed back in the early 80s on tonearm mass. It was determined that the lower effective mass arms (more on this below) could track better, especially when dealing with warped records.

2) High Density Base (or Plinth)
By employing high-density fiberboard, the base is using what is known as "mass loading" to absorb and dissipate extraneous vibrations in the form of acoustic feedback (vibrations from outside vibrations like footfalls and loud music from speakers)

3) 3-axis Vibration Controlling Feet
The 3-axis vibration control from the feet may contain springs, according to my understanding of Mr. Kumazawa's explanation. If this is true, the turntable is also employing spring suspension to also accomplish the same objective as #2. Traditionally, turntable designers have opted for #2 or #3 but not both. This is unusual but can be extremely effective.

When using spring suspension manufacturers must decide on the compliance of the suspension system. Higher compliance (2Hz to 5Hz) can filter out more acoustic feedback (vibrations from footfalls and vibrations from loud speakers) and even motor rumble but tend to make the upper platform holding the platter and tonearm jar from physical handling because the platform rests on top of the springs. SOTA avoided this tendency by hanging the platform on springs. The Yamaha GT-5000 apparently used yet another option using its feet. Lower compliance (above 5Hz) would filter out less vibration but it would be easier for physical handling.

4) Moving Coil (MC) vs. Moving Magnet (MM)
MC cartridges are revered by the majority of vinyl audiophiles. Mr. Kumazawa references one of the reasons but doesn't get into the nitty gritty: the response. MC cartridges have extended high end response that typically reach anywhere from 30kHz to all the up to 80kHz. While there's very little musical signal in this area, it may be comforting to known that well-pressed LPs can contain all the extended highs in this range if it is also on the master tape. MC cartridges also tend to excel at transient response. You'll notice this on music with a lot of percussion. The starting and stopping of transient sounds are usually razor sharp and lends a sense of realism.

The transient response can be measured when playing a test LP containing a 1Khz square wave test tone and observing the reproduction on a scope. Rise time can be as low as under 10µs, indicating the ability to reproduce the leading edge of transients in a very fast way for razor sharp attack time.

There are a couple of disadvantages: The cutting stylus used on the original lacquer or copper (in the case of DMM - Direct Metal Mastered) discs have extraneous vibrations in the neighborhood of 37kHz to 42kHz. If the MC cartridge reproduces this resonance, it may modulate with the actual musical signal. This can lead to a sense of "airiness" and "openess" in the high treble. It can sound pleasant, though. The other issue is that the vast majority of MC cartridges have a peaked high-treble between 10kHz - 20kHz amounting to several dB. This can also lead to the same false sense of "airiness" or "openess" in highs.

5) Belt-Drive System
Objectively, all else being equal belt-drive hasn't been proven to be superior to direct-drive. The most hardcore technical reviewers have performed measurements and listening evaluations and have not been able to draw any clear conclusions. The surprising point is that audiophiles have traditionally chosen belt-drive while Japanese manufacturers have introduced direct-drive back in the early 70s. So the GT-5000 is unusual in this respect.

The motor design hasn't been mentioned in the video but the specs on Yamaha's website reveal that it is a very high-quality and costly design. The AC synchronous motor uses the 60Hz line frequency as a speed reference (for speed regulation) while the number of poles for the motor contributes to more consistent rotational speed. Lower-priced motors employ as little as 4-poles. 24 poles is extremely good but....costly! In any case, it contributes to lower wow and flutter and mitigates any motor cogging (unwanted step-like movement typical of lower cost motors).

6) Warped Phil Collins LP And Vibrating Woofer
Woofer vibration as a response to playing a warped record is a direct result of less-than-ideal cartridge/tonearm resonance (a mismatch of cartridge compliance and effective tonearm mass). It was caused by the interaction of a cartridge with higher-than-desirable compliance, given the effective mass of the tonearm. A lot has been written about this issue throughout the 80s but only hardcore vinyl audiophiles from yesteryear would be aware of this. Every stylus has a suspension system. The vast majority of MC cartridges have lower compliance (stiffer suspension) than their MM counterparts. If the effective mass (measured mass at the point of the stylus tip) is high, then a cartridge's compliance needs to be sufficiently low. There is a range of frequencies that the cartridge/tonearm inevitably overreact to when playing LPs. Preferably, the amplitude of the resonance is 10dB or less within the optimum range of 8Hz to 12 Hz. Warps tend to reside in the 5Hz to 6Hz range and this is where the excessive and lower-than-desirably placed cartridge/tonearm resonance resulted in the inaudibly vibrating woofers. This results in wasted amplifier power as well as possible modulation with the bass in the music. If the warp is bad enough, it can even cause extra flutter caused by a back-and-forth scrubbing action of the changing VTA (vertical tracking angle) of the stylus as the effective mass of the cartridge/tonearm dynamically change when the stylus travels through peaks and troughs of record warps. It can be directly addressed by fixing the issue at the source (using a less compliant cartridge), using a turntable that uses a vacuum hold-down system to flatten the record as it is being played or inserting an infrasonic filter in between your phono preamp and amplifier (indirect approach).

There is no standardized method of measuring either cartridge compliance or a tonearm's effective mass. In any case, the former would be considered low if it is rated at 10 to 15 dynes/cm. 30 or higher would be high. Audio-Technica provides two numbers. One for dynamic compliance and one for static. The tonearm's effective mass (the measured mass at the stylus tip) would be considered low if it was 10grams or lower, medium at around 12 to 14 grams and high above that.

Unfortunately, most manufacturers currently don't provide these two specs but you can get a sense of the resulting combination's resonance by using the attachment. It should work reasonably well.

Otherwise, you can get a rough and indirect idea of a cartridges compliance through its recommended tracking force. High compliance cartridges track at under 1 to about 1.5 grams, medium compliance models track at 1.5 to 1.75grams, and low compliance models track at higher weights.

7) Well-Produced Imaging
Much of this can be attributed to a well-centered recorded and/or a sufficiently long tonearm. When spindle holes are off-centered (there are a lot of them!) the direct result is eccentric wow (slow variations in pitch). This can be mitigated somewhat by a tonearm that is long. The GT-5000's tonearm is 9 inches which is average length. Longer tonearms describe a shallower arc so they will produce lower eccentric wow and the left/right grooves will be played more in synchronization for more stable imaging. Of course, the longer the tonearm, the higher the effective mass. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Only two turntables ever made have mitigated this issue: the Nakamichi TX-1000 (1982) and Dragon CT (1985). Both were direct-drive designs that employed a double-platter and both re-centered the top platter to eliminate the eccentric wow. Both were also extremely expensive. The poor man's alternative is to use a turntable with a removable spindle to allow the user to re-center records manually. Many old record changers of the 70s and 80s have removable spindles.

 

[gene]

Thank you so much for such a well informed response and great feedback to my video.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is a re-post of my comments on the subject video:

Hi Gene, I've seen my fair share of videos on your Audioholics channel but I have to say that this video is loaded with information. You asked Mr. Kumazawa some very useful and pointed questions and his explanations were excellent in my opinion, given the condensed length of the video. Having grown up with vinyl since the early 70s and having read many objective technical reviews (with measurements, of course) from major magazines, my impression is that the GT-5000 definitely stands out among most turntables in today's market, regardless of price. The bulk of today's turntables, including fairly expensive ones, are in many respects stripped down versions of designs from the 80s and are technically inferior; not this turntable!

I wanted to address some of the points mentioned. Sorry for appearing preachy and being long-winded. Take it for what it's worth.

1) The Straight Tonearm Design
Mr. Kumazawa hit the nail on the head. All else being equal, straight tonearms can trace grooves more accurately. The laws of geometry dictate that curved arms add mass and instability. Lower mass increases the ability to track and a straight tonearm increases rigidity to reduce resonances. This has been proven in a laboratory study performed back in the early 80s on tonearm mass. It was determined that the lower effective mass arms (more on this below) could track better, especially when dealing with warped records.

2) High Density Base (or Plinth)
By employing high-density fiberboard, the base is using what is known as "mass loading" to absorb and dissipate extraneous vibrations in the form of acoustic feedback (vibrations from outside vibrations like footfalls and loud music from speakers)

3) 3-axis Vibration Controlling Feet
The 3-axis vibration control from the feet may contain springs, according to my understanding of Mr. Kumazawa's explanation. If this is true, the turntable is also employing spring suspension to also accomplish the same objective as #2. Traditionally, turntable designers have opted for #2 or #3 but not both. This is unusual but can be extremely effective.

When using spring suspension manufacturers must decide on the compliance of the suspension system. Higher compliance (2Hz to 5Hz) can filter out more acoustic feedback (vibrations from footfalls and vibrations from loud speakers) and even motor rumble but tend to make the upper platform holding the platter and tonearm jar from physical handling because the platform rests on top of the springs. SOTA avoided this tendency by hanging the platform on springs. The Yamaha GT-5000 apparently used yet another option using its feet. Lower compliance (above 5Hz) would filter out less vibration but it would be easier for physical handling.

4) Moving Coil (MC) vs. Moving Magnet (MM)
MC cartridges are revered by the majority of vinyl audiophiles. Mr. Kumazawa references one of the reasons but doesn't get into the nitty gritty: the response. MC cartridges have extended high end response that typically reach anywhere from 30kHz to all the up to 80kHz. While there's very little musical signal in this area, it may be comforting to known that well-pressed LPs can contain all the extended highs in this range if it is also on the master tape. MC cartridges also tend to excel at transient response. You'll notice this on music with a lot of percussion. The starting and stopping of transient sounds are usually razor sharp and lends a sense of realism.

The transient response can be measured when playing a test LP containing a 1Khz square wave test tone and observing the reproduction on a scope. Rise time can be as low as under 10µs, indicating the ability to reproduce the leading edge of transients in a very fast way for razor sharp attack time.

There are a couple of disadvantages: The cutting stylus used on the original lacquer or copper (in the case of DMM - Direct Metal Mastered) discs have extraneous vibrations in the neighborhood of 37kHz to 42kHz. If the MC cartridge reproduces this resonance, it may modulate with the actual musical signal. This can lead to a sense of "airiness" and "openess" in the high treble. It can sound pleasant, though. The other issue is that the vast majority of MC cartridges have a peaked high-treble between 10kHz - 20kHz amounting to several dB. This can also lead to the same false sense of "airiness" or "openess" in highs.

5) Belt-Drive System
Objectively, all else being equal belt-drive hasn't been proven to be superior to direct-drive. The most hardcore technical reviewers have performed measurements and listening evaluations and have not been able to draw any clear conclusions. The surprising point is that audiophiles have traditionally chosen belt-drive while Japanese manufacturers have introduced direct-drive back in the early 70s. So the GT-5000 is unusual in this respect.

The motor design hasn't been mentioned in the video but the specs on Yamaha's website reveal that it is a very high-quality and costly design. The AC synchronous motor uses the 60Hz line frequency as a speed reference (for speed regulation) while the number of poles for the motor contributes to more consistent rotational speed. Lower-priced motors employ as little as 4-poles. 24 poles is extremely good but....costly! In any case, it contributes to lower wow and flutter and mitigates any motor cogging (unwanted step-like movement typical of lower cost motors).

6) Warped Phil Collins LP And Vibrating Woofer
Woofer vibration as a response to playing a warped record is a direct result of less-than-ideal cartridge/tonearm resonance (a mismatch of cartridge compliance and effective tonearm mass). It was caused by the interaction of a cartridge with higher-than-desirable compliance, given the effective mass of the tonearm. A lot has been written about this issue throughout the 80s but only hardcore vinyl audiophiles from yesteryear would be aware of this. Every stylus has a suspension system. The vast majority of MC cartridges have lower compliance (stiffer suspension) than their MM counterparts. If the effective mass (measured mass at the point of the stylus tip) is high, then a cartridge's compliance needs to be sufficiently low. There is a range of frequencies that the cartridge/tonearm inevitably overreact to when playing LPs. Preferably, the amplitude of the resonance is 10dB or less within the optimum range of 8Hz to 12 Hz. Warps tend to reside in the 5Hz to 6Hz range and this is where the excessive and lower-than-desirably placed cartridge/tonearm resonance resulted in the inaudibly vibrating woofers. This results in wasted amplifier power as well as possible modulation with the bass in the music. If the warp is bad enough, it can even cause extra flutter caused by a back-and-forth scrubbing action of the changing VTA (vertical tracking angle) of the stylus as the effective mass of the cartridge/tonearm dynamically change when the stylus travels through peaks and troughs of record warps. It can be directly addressed by fixing the issue at the source (using a less compliant cartridge), using a turntable that uses a vacuum hold-down system to flatten the record as it is being played or inserting an infrasonic filter in between your phono preamp and amplifier (indirect approach).

There is no standardized method of measuring either cartridge compliance or a tonearm's effective mass. In any case, the former would be considered low if it is rated at 10 to 15 dynes/cm. 30 or higher would be high. Audio-Technica provides two numbers. One for dynamic compliance and one for static. The tonearm's effective mass (the measured mass at the stylus tip) would be considered low if it was 10grams or lower, medium at around 12 to 14 grams and high above that.

Unfortunately, most manufacturers currently don't provide these two specs but you can get a sense of the resulting combination's resonance by using the attachment. It should work reasonably well.

Otherwise, you can get a rough and indirect idea of a cartridges compliance through its recommended tracking force. High compliance cartridges track at under 1 to about 1.5 grams, medium compliance models track at 1.5 to 1.75grams, and low compliance models track at higher weights.

7) Well-Produced Imaging
Much of this can be attributed to a well-centered recorded and/or a sufficiently long tonearm. When spindle holes are off-centered (there are a lot of them!) the direct result is eccentric wow (slow variations in pitch). This can be mitigated somewhat by a tonearm that is long. The GT-5000's tonearm is 9 inches which is average length. Longer tonearms describe a shallower arc so they will produce lower eccentric wow and the left/right grooves will be played more in synchronization for more stable imaging. Of course, the longer the tonearm, the higher the effective mass. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Only two turntables ever made have mitigated this issue: the Nakamichi TX-1000 (1982) and Dragon CT (1985). Both were direct-drive designs that employed a double-platter and both re-centered the top platter to eliminate the eccentric wow. Both were also extremely expensive. The poor man's alternative is to use a turntable with a removable spindle to allow the user to re-center records manually. Many old record changers of the 70s and 80s have removable spindles.

This can't go unchallenged. A straight arm without the cartridge angled is a terrible idea. I have no idea where this nonsense is coming from. The geometry of PU arms has been settled for generations.

An arm can be straight as long as either the headshell, and therefore the cartridge is angled, or the arm and head shell are straight, and the cartridge angled at the end of the arm. What can NOT happen is that the arm be straight and the cartridge also be straight in line with the arm.

If the arm has the correct geometry and set up, with the cartridge at the correct angle with respect to the arm, then the maximum tracking error is 2 degrees, creating maximum distortion due to tracking error of 0.75% at the point on the disc where tracking error is maximum. Best practice is to set for zero tracking error on the inside grooves where tracking is most problematic.

If on the other hand you ignore correct geometry and do not angle the arm, headshell or cartridge then tracking error will vary between -6 and +17 degrees depending on position on the disc. This will give rise to distortion from tracking error of at the worst stylus position on the disc of 6.7%. That is absolutely awful.

I have no idea where this stupid idea has come from, but it is just wrong and thoroughly bad engineering.

I'm sorry, but the "Johnny come latelys" have nothing to teach us old timers about the geometry of disc reproduction. This is settled science and engineering and is undisputable.

 

[MrBoat]

This is a re-post of my comments on the subject video:

Hi Gene, I've seen my fair share of videos on your Audioholics channel but I have to say that this video is loaded with information. You asked Mr. Kumazawa some very useful and pointed questions and his explanations were excellent in my opinion, given the condensed length of the video. Having grown up with vinyl since the early 70s and having read many objective technical reviews (with measurements, of course) from major magazines, my impression is that the GT-5000 definitely stands out among most turntables in today's market, regardless of price. The bulk of today's turntables, including fairly expensive ones, are in many respects stripped down versions of designs from the 80s and are technically inferior; not this turntable!

I wanted to address some of the points mentioned. Sorry for appearing preachy and being long-winded. Take it for what it's worth.

1) The Straight Tonearm Design
Mr. Kumazawa hit the nail on the head. All else being equal, straight tonearms can trace grooves more accurately. The laws of geometry dictate that curved arms add mass and instability. Lower mass increases the ability to track and a straight tonearm increases rigidity to reduce resonances. This has been proven in a laboratory study performed back in the early 80s on tonearm mass. It was determined that the lower effective mass arms (more on this below) could track better, especially when dealing with warped records.

2) High Density Base (or Plinth)
By employing high-density fiberboard, the base is using what is known as "mass loading" to absorb and dissipate extraneous vibrations in the form of acoustic feedback (vibrations from outside vibrations like footfalls and loud music from speakers)

3) 3-axis Vibration Controlling Feet
The 3-axis vibration control from the feet may contain springs, according to my understanding of Mr. Kumazawa's explanation. If this is true, the turntable is also employing spring suspension to also accomplish the same objective as #2. Traditionally, turntable designers have opted for #2 or #3 but not both. This is unusual but can be extremely effective.

When using spring suspension manufacturers must decide on the compliance of the suspension system. Higher compliance (2Hz to 5Hz) can filter out more acoustic feedback (vibrations from footfalls and vibrations from loud speakers) and even motor rumble but tend to make the upper platform holding the platter and tonearm jar from physical handling because the platform rests on top of the springs. SOTA avoided this tendency by hanging the platform on springs. The Yamaha GT-5000 apparently used yet another option using its feet. Lower compliance (above 5Hz) would filter out less vibration but it would be easier for physical handling.

4) Moving Coil (MC) vs. Moving Magnet (MM)
MC cartridges are revered by the majority of vinyl audiophiles. Mr. Kumazawa references one of the reasons but doesn't get into the nitty gritty: the response. MC cartridges have extended high end response that typically reach anywhere from 30kHz to all the up to 80kHz. While there's very little musical signal in this area, it may be comforting to known that well-pressed LPs can contain all the extended highs in this range if it is also on the master tape. MC cartridges also tend to excel at transient response. You'll notice this on music with a lot of percussion. The starting and stopping of transient sounds are usually razor sharp and lends a sense of realism.

The transient response can be measured when playing a test LP containing a 1Khz square wave test tone and observing the reproduction on a scope. Rise time can be as low as under 10µs, indicating the ability to reproduce the leading edge of transients in a very fast way for razor sharp attack time.

There are a couple of disadvantages: The cutting stylus used on the original lacquer or copper (in the case of DMM - Direct Metal Mastered) discs have extraneous vibrations in the neighborhood of 37kHz to 42kHz. If the MC cartridge reproduces this resonance, it may modulate with the actual musical signal. This can lead to a sense of "airiness" and "openess" in the high treble. It can sound pleasant, though. The other issue is that the vast majority of MC cartridges have a peaked high-treble between 10kHz - 20kHz amounting to several dB. This can also lead to the same false sense of "airiness" or "openess" in highs.

5) Belt-Drive System
Objectively, all else being equal belt-drive hasn't been proven to be superior to direct-drive. The most hardcore technical reviewers have performed measurements and listening evaluations and have not been able to draw any clear conclusions. The surprising point is that audiophiles have traditionally chosen belt-drive while Japanese manufacturers have introduced direct-drive back in the early 70s. So the GT-5000 is unusual in this respect.

The motor design hasn't been mentioned in the video but the specs on Yamaha's website reveal that it is a very high-quality and costly design. The AC synchronous motor uses the 60Hz line frequency as a speed reference (for speed regulation) while the number of poles for the motor contributes to more consistent rotational speed. Lower-priced motors employ as little as 4-poles. 24 poles is extremely good but....costly! In any case, it contributes to lower wow and flutter and mitigates any motor cogging (unwanted step-like movement typical of lower cost motors).

6) Warped Phil Collins LP And Vibrating Woofer
Woofer vibration as a response to playing a warped record is a direct result of less-than-ideal cartridge/tonearm resonance (a mismatch of cartridge compliance and effective tonearm mass). It was caused by the interaction of a cartridge with higher-than-desirable compliance, given the effective mass of the tonearm. A lot has been written about this issue throughout the 80s but only hardcore vinyl audiophiles from yesteryear would be aware of this. Every stylus has a suspension system. The vast majority of MC cartridges have lower compliance (stiffer suspension) than their MM counterparts. If the effective mass (measured mass at the point of the stylus tip) is high, then a cartridge's compliance needs to be sufficiently low. There is a range of frequencies that the cartridge/tonearm inevitably overreact to when playing LPs. Preferably, the amplitude of the resonance is 10dB or less within the optimum range of 8Hz to 12 Hz. Warps tend to reside in the 5Hz to 6Hz range and this is where the excessive and lower-than-desirably placed cartridge/tonearm resonance resulted in the inaudibly vibrating woofers. This results in wasted amplifier power as well as possible modulation with the bass in the music. If the warp is bad enough, it can even cause extra flutter caused by a back-and-forth scrubbing action of the changing VTA (vertical tracking angle) of the stylus as the effective mass of the cartridge/tonearm dynamically change when the stylus travels through peaks and troughs of record warps. It can be directly addressed by fixing the issue at the source (using a less compliant cartridge), using a turntable that uses a vacuum hold-down system to flatten the record as it is being played or inserting an infrasonic filter in between your phono preamp and amplifier (indirect approach).

There is no standardized method of measuring either cartridge compliance or a tonearm's effective mass. In any case, the former would be considered low if it is rated at 10 to 15 dynes/cm. 30 or higher would be high. Audio-Technica provides two numbers. One for dynamic compliance and one for static. The tonearm's effective mass (the measured mass at the stylus tip) would be considered low if it was 10grams or lower, medium at around 12 to 14 grams and high above that.

Unfortunately, most manufacturers currently don't provide these two specs but you can get a sense of the resulting combination's resonance by using the attachment. It should work reasonably well.

Otherwise, you can get a rough and indirect idea of a cartridges compliance through its recommended tracking force. High compliance cartridges track at under 1 to about 1.5 grams, medium compliance models track at 1.5 to 1.75grams, and low compliance models track at higher weights.

7) Well-Produced Imaging
Much of this can be attributed to a well-centered recorded and/or a sufficiently long tonearm. When spindle holes are off-centered (there are a lot of them!) the direct result is eccentric wow (slow variations in pitch). This can be mitigated somewhat by a tonearm that is long. The GT-5000's tonearm is 9 inches which is average length. Longer tonearms describe a shallower arc so they will produce lower eccentric wow and the left/right grooves will be played more in synchronization for more stable imaging. Of course, the longer the tonearm, the higher the effective mass. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Only two turntables ever made have mitigated this issue: the Nakamichi TX-1000 (1982) and Dragon CT (1985). Both were direct-drive designs that employed a double-platter and both re-centered the top platter to eliminate the eccentric wow. Both were also extremely expensive. The poor man's alternative is to use a turntable with a removable spindle to allow the user to re-center records manually. Many old record changers of the 70s and 80s have removable spindles.

While I still enjoy sessions with the same 70 or so records I had collected until shortly after CD was invented, having to think about all of this now, makes me feel even more fortunate that CD was invented when it was, and as much so again, with modern digital sources as well. What made vinyl so great in the first place was, not having to have so much 2nd-guessing and troubleshooting from what amounts to a crude technology, comparatively.

In other words, we all knew why vinyl sounded like it did and that was ok, and is still what keeps whatever charms it has because of this, as good enough. I mean, I still have my old Hitachi DD from around 1979 and whatever it brings, or lacks, ends up being part of what is memorable about the experiences of the past.

Vinyl may work fine for the recordings of it's time that were essentially engineered just for it, but I like all of the bass included with my music now, without having to park the playback machines in another part of the house to keep it from subsonic feedback and other microphonic contamination, just for starters. Especially for those of us who listen to modern music above mouse fart levels.

 

[TLS Guy]

While I still enjoy sessions with the same 70 or so records I had collected until shortly after CD was invented, having to think about all of this now, makes me feel even more fortunate that CD was invented when it was, and as much so again, with modern digital sources as well. What made vinyl so great in the first place was, not having to have so much 2nd-guessing and troubleshooting from what amounts to a crude technology, comparatively.

In other words, we all knew why vinyl sounded like it did and that was ok, and is still what keeps whatever charms it has because of this, as good enough. I mean, I still have my old Hitachi DD from around 1979 and whatever it brings, or lacks, ends up being part of what is memorable about the experiences of the past.

Vinyl may work fine for the recordings of it's time that were essentially engineered just for it, but I like all of the bass included with my music now, without having to park the playback machines in another part of the house to keep it from subsonic feedback and other microphonic contamination, just for starters. Especially for those of us who listen to modern music above mouse fart levels.

The problem with vinyl is that it is not plug and play. Choice of equipment and obsessional set up is required. I don't have the problems you mentioned, but I know most do.

Long term care and handling of records is essential.

Gene has been bamboozled with a pretty heavy dollop of snake oil with that turntable. The geometry of that arm is a disaster not only leading to unnecessarily high distortion, but likely to result in excess record and stylus ware due to excess misalignment of elliptical styli in the groove. I can say categorically I would not let any of my precious vinyl collection anywhere near that turntable and not give any a single play on one. That design is just wrong and a hazard to your collection.

I have a suspicion marketers forced the engineers to create this abortion to separate themselves from the pack.

 

[gene]

The problem with vinyl is that it is not plug and play. Choice of equipment and obsessional set up is required. I don't have the problems you mentioned, but I know most do.

Long term care and handling of records is essential.

Gene has been bamboozled with a pretty heavy dollop of snake oil with that turntable. The geometry of that arm is a disaster not only leading to unnecessarily high distortion, but likely to result in excess record and stylus ware due to excess misalignment of elliptical styli in the groove. I can say categorically I would not let any of my precious vinyl collection anywhere near that turntable and not give any a single play on one. That design is just wrong and a hazard to your collection.

I have a suspicion marketers forced the engineers to create this abortion to separate themselves from the pack.

My Marantz TT-15S1 uses a straight arm but angles the cartridge. It sounds superb!

I'm not well versed in turntable mechanics but I can tell you the listening demo of the Yamaha GT-5000 was incredible. If it was as problematic as you claim, I don't think the end result would have been so positive.

 

[MrBoat]

The problem with vinyl is that it is not plug and play. Choice of equipment and obsessional set up is required. I don't have the problems you mentioned, but I know most do.

It was meant to be easy. It was meant to sound good on lesser equipment too. I am listening to an album at this moment and it is as good as it can possibly be. Still, I remember a stark contrast between the amount of bass at a live gig, compared to it's vinyl counterpart. Then I learned later on that they couldn't fit all the bass on a 12" record if they wanted to put more than 3 songs on a side. For decades we lived pretty much with very limited sub bass.

Vinyl is what initially hooked me into audiophilia. I grew up with 78s and 45s still in the house. Still, the TT and the ritual around it wasn't more than was necessary for reasonable care and performance. It was more about the speakers than any other part of the system, yet again. I never had issue other than dirt and static and other people putting their grubby paws allover them.

Slumming it with the Hitachi and it sounds marvelous!

 

[TLS Guy]

My Marantz TT-15S1 uses a straight arm but angles the cartridge. It sounds superb!

I'm not well versed in turntable mechanics but I can tell you the listening demo of the Yamaha GT-5000 was incredible. If it was as problematic as you claim, I don't think the end result would have been so positive.

Angling the cartridge in a straight arm is just fine. That Yamaha turntable has a straight arm and NON angled cartridge, which is just plain wrong.

You can download a turntable protractor here.

If you had tested that Yamaha turntable you would have demonstrated massive tracking errors.

You do not have to have a S-shaped arm, then the cartridge has to be angled correctly.

Here is a straight arm with and angled cartridge. Decca ffss H4E on a Decca professional arm.

Here is an S-shaped arm.

This is an SME series 3 arm with silicone damper, with Shure V15 xmr. SME designed this arm to optimize the sure V15 xmr. It will of course accommodate a wide variety of cartridges.

The earlier SME arms were designed preferentially for high compliance MM cartridges. In order to get the cartridge arm resonance in the optimal range this requires lower mass arm designs. As MC cartridges became more popular, SME introduced higher mass arms.

I personally favor MM cartridges. Whilst MC cartridges can sound superb on certain records, their lower compliance is against them in higher modulated difficult to track LPs. This especially tends to occur in final crescendo on the inside groove. I do own a couple of MC cartridges, but I don't use them. In my view an SME series III arm with a Shure V15 xmr with the silicone damper in use, is the apex of disc reproduction. The Shure is unfortunately NLA, but I suspect the Ortofon Black is a really good alternative.

That Yamaha turntable is just incorrectly engineered and will have high distortion and excess stylus ware, if the cartridge is elliptical, and also cause excess record ware. So that Yamaha turntable needs to be avoided.

Disc enthusiasts know this as can be seen from the premium prices good older turntables and SME series II and especially the series III arms command.

Many chromium plated exotic modern turntables can look impressive and really contribute nothing significant except high cost and often erroneous engineering.

A turntable like this will give the best performance possible from LP reproduction, going further is just gratuitous complication.

A good turntable system properly set up is capable of very high quality reproduction, and with a well cared for disc, is very hard to distinguish from the best digital sources. Unless you use dbx encoded LPs, the dynamic range has to be compressed slightly, but is still very impressive. A properly set up high quality turntable with a good cartridge damped and with the arm/cartridge resonance optimized will not make your woofers flap or be prone to acoustic feedback. That is not an issue with any of my four turntables.

Digital sources are much more user friendly and much more plug and play. Optimizing vinyl disc reproduction takes the correct match of the components, technical expertise and experience to optimize it. In addition great care in handling and storing the discs is required.

I am puzzled by the return of vinyl LP sales and playback equipment. I can only assume it is the ritual and return of human interaction. I think this applies to some extent to magnetic tape reproduction. However in that medium the challenges are amplified and there is no ready availability of playback material. However, I would never have predicted the return of the vinyl disc on the scale that this seems to have occurred. So I think to optimize it, then devotees who need to look back to the sixties, seventies and early eighties for the wisdom of that time.

That Yamaha turntable shows that my advice needs to be headed. That unit will fall far short of the quality obtainable from vinyl.

It is small wonder that the equipment that I have used and cared for over the greater part of my life appreciates faster than my retirement accounts.

 

[isolar8001]

I have fond memories of those old AR turntables....simple, clean, well built and did the job.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have fond memories of those old AR turntables....simple, clean, well built and did the job.

The weakest feature was the PU arm. It had no lift for one thing. The arm was just the wrong side of crude. But for US turntables it was a step in the right direction. At that time US turntables really lagged European offerings.

 

[MrBoat]

Angling the cartridge in a straight arm is just fine. That Yamaha turntable has a straight arm and NON angled cartridge, which is just plain wrong.

You can download a turntable protractor here.

If you had tested that Yamaha turntable you would have demonstrated massive tracking errors.

You do not have to have a S-shaped arm, then the cartridge has to be angled correctly.

Here is a straight arm with and angled cartridge. Decca ffss H4E on a Decca professional arm.

Here is an S-shaped arm.

This is an SME series 3 arm with silicone damper, with Shure V15 xmr. SME designed this arm to optimize the sure V15 xmr. It will of course accommodate a wide variety of cartridges.

The earlier SME arms were designed preferentially for high compliance MM cartridges. In order to get the cartridge arm resonance in the optimal range this requires lower mass arm designs. As MC cartridges became more popular, SME introduced higher mass arms.

I personally favor MM cartridges. Whilst MC cartridges can sound superb on certain records, their lower compliance is against them in higher modulated difficult to track LPs. This especially tends to occur in final crescendo on the inside groove. I do own a couple of MC cartridges, but I don't use them. In my view an SME series III arm with a Shure V15 xmr with the silicone damper in use, is the apex of disc reproduction. The Shure is unfortunately NLA, but I suspect the Ortofon Black is a really good alternative.

That Yamaha turntable is just incorrectly engineered and will have high distortion and excess stylus ware, if the cartridge is elliptical, and also cause excess record ware. So that Yamaha turntable needs to be avoided.

Disc enthusiasts know this as can be seen from the premium prices good older turntables and SME series II and especially the series III arms command.

Many chromium plated exotic modern turntables can look impressive and really contribute nothing significant except high cost and often erroneous engineering.

A turntable like this will give the best performance possible from LP reproduction, going further is just gratuitous complication.

A good turntable system properly set up is capable of very high quality reproduction, and with a well cared for disc, is very hard to distinguish from the best digital sources. Unless you use dbx encoded LPs, the dynamic range has to be compressed slightly, but is still very impressive. A properly set up high quality turntable with a good cartridge damped and with the arm/cartridge resonance optimized will not make your woofers flap or be prone to acoustic feedback. That is not an issue with any of my four turntables.

Digital sources are much more user friendly and much more plug and play. Optimizing vinyl disc reproduction takes the correct match of the components, technical expertise and experience to optimize it. In addition great care in handling and storing the discs is required.

I am puzzled by the return of vinyl LP sales and playback equipment. I can only assume it is the ritual and return of human interaction. I think this applies to some extent to magnetic tape reproduction. However in that medium the challenges are amplified and there is no ready availability of playback material. However, I would never have predicted the return of the vinyl disc on the scale that this seems to have occurred. So I think to optimize it, then devotees who need to look back to the sixties, seventies and early eighties for the wisdom of that time.

That Yamaha turntable shows that my advice needs to be headed. That unit will fall far short of the quality obtainable from vinyl.

It is small wonder that the equipment that I have used and cared for over the greater part of my life appreciates faster than my retirement accounts.

Some modern TT use MDF plinths, which has next to no dimensional stability, even with just supporting it's own weight, and never mind it having a big hole in it's center. It will sag/warp over time, regardless of which direction the material is arranged, without a rigid subframe. Probably the real reason they put 3 legs instead of 4. Otherwise they would have to put 5, with the odd numbered one supporting the center from sagging.

 

[Mikado463]

I'm not well versed in turntable mechanics but I can tell you the listening demo of the Yamaha GT-5000 was incredible. If it was as problematic as you claim, I don't think the end result would have been so positive.

that very well may be, but the important take from TLS's reply is the the accelerated wear(stylus and Lp) that stupid geometry will impose. Therefore long term satisfaction of play back will not yield what you initially heard.