Dirac and Denon

[olddog]

I saw where Denon was offering to let you download DIRAC on certain AVR's with the purchase of a license of course $$$. I wonder if it is that much better than the Audessey that already comes with them and if it is why don't they just include it rather than the Audessey?

 

[PENG]

First of all, I think it is a safe assumption that DL's license fees are significantly higher than that for Audyssey, and I think that's the main reason D+M/Masimo decided to make DL a paid option. It is a good compromise, because if they included DL as an option then the extra licensing fees relative to that of Audyssey's, will have to be passed on to all customers whether they actually need or want DL, vs Audyssey. Again, reality is, many users don't really care, and they are happy enough with Audyssey, some even feel Audyssey is better, so why force the extra cost on them?

 

[dlaloum]

I heard some years back that D&M negotiated a long term exclusive licence for Audyssey - basically they paid up front for exclusivity...

The result of that is they pay very little for their Audyssey licence, and kicked other people out (onkyo/integra, others?)

Audyssey noticeably lost interest in the AVR / HT marketplace around that time (2015 ish?) - and the audyssey product hasn't changed since that time (other than cosmetics...).

I don't think it costs D&M anything to bundle in Audyssey (or very little) - whereas they would have to pay standard licence fees for Dirac.

IMO the Dirac results are better than Audyssey - but plenty of people disagree... Dirac Live and Audyssey are direct competitors.

Dirac Bass Control is not a direct competitor to Audyssey SubEQ - it is by all accounts substantially superior, to a degree where people serious about that sort of functionality don't bother with Audyssey SubEQ at all.
(I experimented with SubEQ about 10 years ago, found it to do nothing in my environment)

Dirac ART is a paradigm shift, something altogether new and different... it has no competitors (Trinnov does something quite different, and has no competitors in what it does too...)

 

[PENG]

Dirac Bass Control is not a direct competitor to Audyssey SubEQ - it is by all accounts substantially superior, to a degree where people serious about that sort of functionality don't bother with Audyssey SubEQ at all.
(I experimented with SubEQ about 10 years ago, found it to do nothing in my environment)

As typical, we tend to agree a lot in general, but just to be fair in this case, people (not you as I know you have used both and are not the hearsay goer type) can say anything based on their subjective measurements. On objective measurements, I found that if you just run the two following instructions, SubEQ and DLBC would make little difference overall. If you do the same, but REW them after, tweak accordingly, then REW again, tweak again, then yes DLBC will win quickly (again just overall).

For someone who would do the same but in full OCD mode, after a few hours of REW/tweak and cover multiple mic positions, very similar results would be achievable with either system, but DLBC will take less time for sure. That's purely based on my own experience, experimenting on two channel stereo, with 1 or 2 subs. For those with 4 subs, I don't doubt DLBC will win even bigger.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

.... reality is, many users don't really care, and they are happy enough with Audyssey, some even feel Audyssey is better...

I thought it might be relevant to share this anecdotic evidence of the opposite:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/comments/12pqcs2

 

[PENG]

I thought it might be relevant to share this anecdotic evidence of the opposite:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/comments/12pqcs2

I have read a few of those subjective measurement (ears/brains...) based reviews. The key word you included, i.e. "anecdotic...", is the key word. That makes such reviews back to irrelevancy other than it illustrated the silliness of such reviews as we all can see there are many yes, no, maybe, depends...kind of assessments.

Ever wonder why we can hardly find any REW graphs that supports Anthem ARC Genesis reviews? My guess is, that's one of the reason why we have so many unchallenged (because it is not possible) user reviews on forums including Audioholics, anyone can make any statements about how good it is...

Dirac Live seems to be the only popular paid RC solution that have rave reviews by users and professional reviewers, and have reasonably reliable evidence, by measurements in the public domain. Yes there are still some that would say they prefer Audyssey, but those are by far, the minority.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Another personal testimony is my experience with Audyssey XT, which made my towers sound a bit cleaner after adding Matt's Sub, but it wasn't a massive difference (probably changing crossover made the biggest impact)
I am curious about what Dirac Live could do to my existing speakers and my Onkyo is quite long in the tooth feature-wise.

p.s:
Here's Dirac's review with actual measurements:

Assessing Room EQ

This article shows the results of measuring the Dirac Room EQ system.

ethanwiner.com

 

[lovinthehd]

As typical, we tend to agree a lot in general, but just to be fair in this case, people (not you as I know you have used both and are not the hearsay goer type) can say anything based on their subjective measurements. On objective measurements, I found that if you just run the two following instructions, SubEQ and DLBC would make little difference overall. If you do the same, but REW them after, tweak accordingly, then REW again, tweak again, then yes DLBC will win quickly (again just overall).

For someone who would do the same but in full OCD mode, after a few hours of REW/tweak and cover multiple mic positions, very similar results would be achievable with either system, but DLBC will take less time for sure. That's purely based on my own experience, experimenting on two channel stereo, with 1 or 2 subs. For those with 4 subs, I don't doubt DLBC will win even bigger.

SubEQ for Audyssey is just an indication of the ability to set independent level/delay for subs, so doesn't mean a lot (altho until these latest Denons all anyone provided for was just for 2 subs). I am somewhat waiting for DLBC to be available for these new Denon units (at least don't believe that has happened as yet) that can handle 4 subs for independent delay/level, as well as some user reports or some testing/measuring....

 

[PENG]

SubEQ for Audyssey is just an indication of the ability to set independent level/delay for subs, so doesn't mean a lot (altho until these latest Denons all anyone provided for was just for 2 subs). I am somewhat waiting for DLBC to be available for these new Denon units (at least don't believe that has happened as yet) that can handle 4 subs for independent delay/level, as well as some user reports or some testing/measuring....

That's right, but the results from just time alignment are still very good. DLBC is in theory better as it does phasing as well, but if you don't do any manual tweaks, the results on paper may not look much better than using Audyssey/subeq for 2.2, that's my only point.

DLBC for Denon is not here yet but if you only have 2 subs, you can still get very good results with XT32/subeq, while waiting for DLBC. Some people can't wait, and may go with a minidsp2x4 HD, that's a waste of money and time imo.

 

[dlaloum]

SubEQ for Audyssey is just an indication of the ability to set independent level/delay for subs, so doesn't mean a lot (altho until these latest Denons all anyone provided for was just for 2 subs). I am somewhat waiting for DLBC to be available for these new Denon units (at least don't believe that has happened as yet) that can handle 4 subs for independent delay/level, as well as some user reports or some testing/measuring....

Dirac Live also provides the ability to set independent level/delay per sub channel...

So that means SubEQ adds nothing when compared to Dirac.

 

[lovinthehd]

Dirac Live also provides the ability to set independent level/delay per sub channel...

So that means SubEQ adds nothing when compared to Dirac.

DL or DLBC in terms of multiple subs? Denon first gets DL then DLBC later.....

 

[dlaloum]

DL or DLBC in terms of multiple subs? Denon first gets DL then DLBC later.....

On AVR's that have multiple independent sub channels, Dirac Live (even the frequency limited bottom version) - has independent sub tuning - treats them as it treats all other speakers. I have a feeling that this might mean that it is substantially more sophisticated than SubEQ...

You can look at some of the screen grabs of Dirac being set up on the 4 sub output Denon's - they show each sub channel as being completely independent - treated like any other speaker, obviously with its "curtains" reflecting the frequency limitations of that specific speaker...

 

[Andrein]

Hi,

Has anyone tried DL full range Vs DLBC? A bit confused with these 2 and what DLBC gives say for 1-2 subs?

 

[asere]

Hi,

Has anyone tried DL full range Vs DLBC? A bit confused with these 2 and what DLBC gives say for 1-2 subs?

Same here

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[PENG]

Same here

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It's not a matter of one vs the other. DlBC does bass management/phase "correction" /crossover settings. They work together

Bass Control - Dirac

Dirac Live Bass Control leverages all-pass filters, machine learning and AI, to optimize your subwoofers beyond equalization (EQ).

www.dirac.com

 

[asere]

It's not a matter of one vs the other. DlBC does bass management/phase "correction" /crossover settings. They work together

Bass Control - Dirac

Dirac Live Bass Control leverages all-pass filters, machine learning and AI, to optimize your subwoofers beyond equalization (EQ).

www.dirac.com

Audyssey XT32, does this correct?

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[PENG]

Audyssey XT32, does this correct?

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Not correct, Audyssey does not do phase, but it does time align multiple subs that in my experience, can achieve almost the same results and even better if I spend time tweaking things with the app. Without any manual tweaks, I do find Dirac's DLBC more effective, though people who discount Audyssey XT32 subEQ HT just because it only does time alignment, are baseless.

 

[asere]

Not correct, Audyssey does not do phase, but it does time align multiple subs that in my experience, can achieve almost the same results and even better if I spend time tweaking things with the app. Without any manual tweaks, I do find Dirac's DLBC more effective, though people who discount Audyssey XT32 subEQ HT just because it only does time alignment, are baseless.

That may be why I find the bass dull after running Audyssey. I have no manual with app on my avr.

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[PENG]

That may be why I find the bass dull after running Audyssey. I have no manual with app on my avr.

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Most likely that is the reason. I would not buy an older D+M AVRs that are not compatible with the Editor App. You need the app to tweak the bass, or at least disable the MRC in most cases. Without the App, you don't have the option.

 

[asere]

Can you upgrade to DLBC with the LX505 with dirac paid download or ony applicable with the Lx805?

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