Behringer ep4000 for H/T problems

J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
I appreciate you taking time to help. I'm sure it's like a collage professor teaching a 6 grade class. Ok, my room is about 20 x25. It's a bit smaller than I thought. By budget is pretty low now. I keep buying parts I don't need. (should have come here first.) I would like to go to 20htz before it falls off too bad if possible, and an SPL close to 100 as I can get. Does that sound reasonable?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I appreciate you taking time to help. I'm sure it's like a collage professor teaching a 6 grade class. Ok, my room is about 20 x25. It's a bit smaller than I thought. By budget is pretty low now. I keep buying parts I don't need. (should have come here first.) I would like to go to 20htz before it falls off too bad if possible, and an SPL close to 100 as I can get. Does that sound reasonable?
This will be a good cost effective design for you without breaking the bank. It meets the criteria you posted. The driver is the Dayton RSS315HF-4.

You don't need to follow the Bass Box Pro box dimensions, but the volume must be the same. You need to add bracing volume to the enclosure volume. I would make it deep enough so you can make the ports straight. The other alternative is to bend them with elbows. Leave good clearance from the backs of the ports to the panels. Half the internal surface should be covered with Polyfill, which you can get at Walmart.

We design to order here. Make sure the cabinet is well braced. This should be a very good sounding sub.
 

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J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
Thank you for your time to put this together for me. I'm curious why to only cover half of the inside with polyfill? I have always covered the whole thing. This is probably a stupid question, but shouldn't a larger speaker work better? I know bigger isn't always better. I'm also thinking my amp may be over kill. I also have a Behringer ep 1500. Would that work better for this sub?
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
If you want bass like in a nightclub, you can always buy a cabinet that WOULD BE used in a night club- it doesn't need to be huge, it just needs to be voiced that way. Also, you need to consider the size of your room- small rooms don't need a big sub and it can work backward in some ways. The 'feel it in my chest' sensation isn't the same for everyone. I had a sub in one of my past cars and it was behind the passenger seat. I felt it as I drove, but one passenger asked me if I could turn it down because he was becoming nauseated.

I haven't noticed noise in any of the ART products I installed, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Usually, noise is present because the level controls need to be adjusted correctly- jacking everything up isn't 'correctly', especially when that is done due to low output.

What shape and size is the room? That matters, a lot.

I would return the switches to the OFF positions and check your speaker plug wiring- loose strands that are touching an adjacent terminal can cause all kinds of problems- you're using the screw terminals, right?

The parameters needed for designing the correct enclosure for the subs should be easy enough to find- if you call Pioneer, they should be able to send a file to you.

As much as you may not want to, I recommend reading the manuals. ALL of them. Make notes as needed.
FYI, the Behringer EP4000 has a high pass filter, not a low pass. That's why switches 3 and 8 need to be on or it will do the opposite and filter out the bass.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you for your time to put this together for me. I'm curious why to only cover half of the inside with polyfill? I have always covered the whole thing. This is probably a stupid question, but shouldn't a larger speaker work better? I know bigger isn't always better. I'm also thinking my amp may be over kill. I also have a Behringer ep 1500. Would that work better for this sub?
You asking these questions as you don't understand the fundamental physics of audio reproduction. So I will have to start from zero pretty much.

The first thing to understand is that speakers are resonant systems. Further they are compound resonant systems.

So lets consider the simple pendulum. If you either, lengthen the pendulum or both the pendulum will swing slower. So the frequency is lower. That swing is the resonant frequency.

Obviously if we do anything in the opposite to the above, the frequency will be higher. You alter the time keeping of a clock by raising or lowering the weight on the pendulum.

Now lets look at the escapement spring and the weight to our clock. Obviously the spring gives it a kick, and is the motor of our speakers, which also affects the resonance. The weight keeping the system going is our amplifier. Obviously our escapement spring has an influence as well.

So our speaker driver has weight, we have a motor system and a suspension which can be another tight or loose spring. Then we have the air in the enclosure, which has compliance, in other words that is another spring to add to the equation.

So the parameters of a speaker, which are the components of these springs we are talking about are defined by parameters called the Thiele/Small parameters. T/S parameters for short. In addition those parameters also define the electrical parameters of the driver. As in a speaker the electrical behavior also has a significant influence on our complex resonant system. Many electronic components also have electrical resonance, and since a speaker has a coil, which is an inductor it also has resonance.

So the job of the speakers designer is to optimize this complex resonant system to provide the optimal result. Which in terms of bass alignment is called, the optimal box.

So I have designed you the optimal box for that driver, and it will be a good performer.

So a box has to be the right box for a given driver. So a bigger box is not better for the driver I selected. You can model extended bass alignments. For that driver increasing box volume to around 5 cu.ft. gives you a 1/4 Hz of bass extension, and gives you a poorer quality bass as a result.

Now, how low a driver will play is pretty much determined by its fundamental free air resonance. Usually a driver will play to a little higher than its free air resonance in a ported box, now and again a few Hz lower. But it is a pretty hard and fast that a driver will roll off at its fundamental resonance known as Fs. The rule holds no matter how large the driver is.

So the driver you picked had an Fs of 35 Hz, so it likely will only play down to 40 Hz or so. I did not bother modelling it, but I have estimated it closely.

The driver I picked for you has an Fs of 23 Hz. So the sub will only be 3 db. down at 22.5 HZ and 6 db. down at 20 Hz. Its maximum output possible at 20 Hz is 106 db. So the design full fills the criteria you gave me, with margin.

As check on the validity of my design you can look at the impedance curve. The nadir of the impedance plot is 23 Hz, with the twin peaks either side. This is exactly how it should look.

As far as stuffing, as explained this is a resonant system So you need just enough Polyfill to kill reflections, so you put a little top and bottom, on the back behind the driver and a little either side of the driver. If you use too much you will kill the box resonance and the sub will NOT work.

I choose this design as you are obviously a novice. This should be a fairly easy build, and you can get peak vent air velocity down to 20 m/sec, without the complication of having to build a slot vent. It is also a highly cost effective design, and will hold its own against pricey subs. However you must follow the plan to the letter and not go off on unsound notions of your own. If you build this design to the letter, I can guarantee you will have an excellent sub.

It is a straightforward design, and if you follow instructions will give you excellent results with your amplifier.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you for your time to put this together for me. I'm curious why to only cover half of the inside with polyfill? I have always covered the whole thing. This is probably a stupid question, but shouldn't a larger speaker work better? I know bigger isn't always better. I'm also thinking my amp may be over kill. I also have a Behringer ep 1500. Would that work better for this sub?
Connect the EP1500 and try it with only the Clean Box, not the crossover if it works, your EP4000 may have a problem, but I think the crossover's settings may be causing this. If the EP1500 works, swap the EP4000 and try it again. If that works, read the manuals before trying to use settings that may be confusing.

Also, you can use regular RCA cables with a 1/4" adapter- the adapters aren't expensive and it should work fine.

BTW- you didn't connect the Yamaha's line output to the RCA jacks on the side of the CleanBox with the Balanced Output jacks and the power inlet/power switch did you? That will cause problems because those jacks are for unbalanced output. I don't know why they have unbalanced input jacks on both faces, but I think they should have been placed only near the other pairs of inputs.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
Wow! I never knew sound was so technical. After what you said, I'm not sure that I'm even a novice. My wood working skills are much better than my understanding of this. I hope I can get away with one more stupid question? Wondering how different using a RSS390HO-4 15" or a RSS390HF-4 15 would be. I know I would be giving up a bit of low end that I want, but would these be better room shakers. The wattage is much higher on the RSS390HO, but has a higher f3. I understand why you picked the sub you did. I was wondering how much of the low end I would lose with these, and if I would still get the ground shaking lows? With the correct box ? Believe me, I'm not second guessing you. I'm just curious. Trying to make sense of this all. Please don't kick me out of here for being stupid.
The EP 1500 does the same thing the 4000 does. I hooked the RCA cables from the AVR to the unbalanced input on the art box.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Wow! I never knew sound was so technical. After what you said, I'm not sure that I'm even a novice. My wood working skills are much better than my understanding of this. I hope I can get away with one more stupid question? Wondering how different using a RSS390HO-4 15" or a RSS390HF-4 15 would be. I know I would be giving up a bit of low end that I want, but would these be better room shakers. The wattage is much higher on the RSS390HO, but has a higher f3. I understand why you picked the sub you did. I was wondering how much of the low end I would lose with these, and if I would still get the ground shaking lows? With the correct box ? Believe me, I'm not second guessing you. I'm just curious. Trying to make sense of this all. Please don't kick me out of here for being stupid.
The EP 1500 does the same thing the 4000 does. I hooked the RCA cables from the AVR to the unbalanced input on the art box.
Did you connect the Yamaha directly to either of the amplifiers? Also, did you check the output level from the Yamaha?

Because I know it works for many Yamaha models, connect the TSR-7850 to your router and find its IP address. Once you find that, open your browser and enter the IP address with /setup

This allows setting up the Yamaha without needing to use a TV or remote control and it's a lot easier. It will let you see and adjust the settings in all areas of the AVR- I want you to look at the Zone 2 settings. You should be able to copy screens to show this.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Wow! I never knew sound was so technical. After what you said, I'm not sure that I'm even a novice. My wood working skills are much better than my understanding of this. I hope I can get away with one more stupid question? Wondering how different using a RSS390HO-4 15" or a RSS390HF-4 15 would be. I know I would be giving up a bit of low end that I want, but would these be better room shakers. The wattage is much higher on the RSS390HO, but has a higher f3. I understand why you picked the sub you did. I was wondering how much of the low end I would lose with these, and if I would still get the ground shaking lows? With the correct box ? Believe me, I'm not second guessing you. I'm just curious. Trying to make sense of this all. Please don't kick me out of here for being stupid.
The EP 1500 does the same thing the 4000 does. I hooked the RCA cables from the AVR to the unbalanced input on the art box.
I picked the correct driver to your specification.

RSS390HO-4 is a high sensitivity high higher Fs driver and will not meet your specifications. It will start rolling off around 30 Hz.

The RSS390HF-4 is closer but will have a higher F3.

I designed the sub you asked for. If you build it I'm sure you will be very happy with it.
If you don't want to build it that is fine as well. However, I think what I designed for you is an ideal and cost effective way to start your career as a serious DIY builder. Repeated failures are very discouraging, and you have had a discouraging start already. Now you need a success, and I'm offering you a chance to savor the sweetness of that success.

It is not a trivial amount of work to really polish a design. So, you now just have to trust that I have advised you correctly and designed your sub competently.

Please keep us informed of your progress with pictures. Good luck with your build.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Did you connect the Yamaha directly to either of the amplifiers? Also, did you check the output level from the Yamaha?

Because I know it works for many Yamaha models, connect the TSR-7850 to your router and find its IP address. Once you find that, open your browser and enter the IP address with /setup

This allows setting up the Yamaha without needing to use a TV or remote control and it's a lot easier. It will let you see and adjust the settings in all areas of the AVR- I want you to look at the Zone 2 settings. You should be able to copy screens to show this.
He chose a driver that is not really a sub driver. It is a pro/commercial high output bass driver in actuality. No matter how he connects it, he is not going to get low bass output, as it will be 20 or more db. down in the low 20 Hz range.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
I tried connecting directly to the amp and get next to 0 sound. I have the app. Not sure how to get to zone 2 in the app. I'm not using zone 2 though. I hope I didn't upset TLS Guy. I'm just trying to use some of the power this amp has. The amp is rated at 10 times the RMS as the speaker. That's a lot of headroom. I'm new to this, I have always been a car guy. Bigger displacement, bigger valves, more air, more fuel = much better performance. This arena is completely different. I know I have a lot of learning to do. Back to what you are helping me with. When I opened the app, I noticed the sub gain was turned down. That's weird because I turned it up with the remote. More head scratching for me.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
Thanks TSL Guy. You are right, I have had enough failures. I'm going to listen to you. First, I need to sell off some of the mistakes I have made. Wife is getting a bit upset with all the extra parts lying around.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
Wow! I cant even get the TLS correct. Sorry about that.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
I'm not sure, I should even admit it, but getting into the app I was looking at the sub trim which was at 0. Not sure if that's a big deal, but I noticed an extra bass. Turned it on. What a difference in my sub output. I thought the extra bass was for the main drivers, not the sub.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm not sure, I should even admit it, but getting into the app I was looking at the sub trim which was at 0. Not sure if that's a big deal, but I noticed an extra bass. Turned it on. What a difference in my sub output. I thought the extra bass was for the main drivers, not the sub.
Why I was asking just what your bass management settings you had setup in avr as well as what your source material was, the sound sound mode of avr would be good too.. Sub trim of O should be fine. The double bass setting will send same lower frequencies to speakers and sub.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
The extra bass seems to have increased the sub volume. Is that normal or am I trippin?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The extra bass seems to have increased the sub volume. Is that normal or am I trippin?
Perhaps, keep in mind a sub pre-out has not only LFE channel info but also what you redirect to the sub via bass management and what the source material was (2.0 music? 5.1 movie soundtrack?). If you aren't sure if you're hearing an actual change, perhaps even results from using a simple phone spl meter app might help. Not there in the room with you in any case.
 
J

Jimbo96

Junior Audioholic
It did seem to wake the sub up a bit. What in using now is a JBL E250P powered sub. I'm waiting on the new art box before I try anything else. What started this whole mission was my JBL S120P never put out much sound. I'm going to use the driver in it to test the art box when it comes in. I pulled the plate amp and put a piece of aluminum in its place. With polyfill on it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks TSL Guy. You are right, I have had enough failures. I'm going to listen to you. First, I need to sell off some of the mistakes I have made. Wife is getting a bit upset with all the extra parts lying around.
As far as I can tell, you only have to sell the bass driver. The cabinet is probably worthless.

That Dayton driver is not a fortune, and MDF is cheap. Just stay with it. After I have my half day out with the undertaker, you will be ready to take over may be. Buy the way, keep your wife happy. I built my wife this system and she loves it. I like to keep her thinking she is the only one who know how to use it. May be that is true.



My system is upstairs.

Remember "Happy wife, happy life!"
 
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