Behringer ep4000 for H/T problems

[highfigh]

He chose a driver that is not really a sub driver. It is a pro/commercial high output bass driver in actuality. No matter how he connects it, he is not going to get low bass output, as it will be 20 or more db. down in the low 20 Hz range.

But that doesn't have anything to do with distorted, low SPL sound with two different amps. Let's see if the root problem can be fixed before going on about how the driver won't work. Also, if the sensitivity of that driver is so high, why is the output so low?

Did you even look into the driver? The link for it is below- it retails for $109- it's not a pro/commercial driver, it's made for car audio. Also, I have only found NVX, not MVX.

VSW154v2 1500W Peak (750W RMS) 15" VS-Series v2 Dual 4-Ohm Subwoofer

Product Details: 15" Dual 4-ohm VS-Series Car Subwoofer Power Handling: RMS Range: 600-750 watts Impedance: Dual 4 ohms Aluminum Shorting Ring to prevent rises in inductance Non-Pressed Paper cone High Roll Custom Blended Foam surround Stamped steel basket for maximum rigidity Single Nomex...

nvx.com

 

[highfigh]

I think I'm going crazy. I keep throwing money at this project and getting nowhere. Hoping someone can help.
I have 2-15" subs. Trying to power with the ep4000. I'm using the art clean pro box in line. The lights on the amp seem to be working good. I can go all the way to clipping and get almost no sound from the speakers, just a lot of heat. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any help on this would be extremely appreciated.

Yamaha TSR-7850
Art clean box pro
Behringer ultra gain pro mic 2200
MVX VSW154 V2 x2

Is this the woofer you bought?

VSW154v2 1500W Peak (750W RMS) 15" VS-Series v2 Dual 4-Ohm Subwoofer

Product Details: 15" Dual 4-ohm VS-Series Car Subwoofer Power Handling: RMS Range: 600-750 watts Impedance: Dual 4 ohms Aluminum Shorting Ring to prevent rises in inductance Non-Pressed Paper cone High Roll Custom Blended Foam surround Stamped steel basket for maximum rigidity Single Nomex...

nvx.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Is this the woofer you bought?

VSW154v2 1500W Peak (750W RMS) 15" VS-Series v2 Dual 4-Ohm Subwoofer

Product Details: 15" Dual 4-ohm VS-Series Car Subwoofer Power Handling: RMS Range: 600-750 watts Impedance: Dual 4 ohms Aluminum Shorting Ring to prevent rises in inductance Non-Pressed Paper cone High Roll Custom Blended Foam surround Stamped steel basket for maximum rigidity Single Nomex...

nvx.com

As far as I know that is the one. It looks to be a very nasty device indeed. I am certain it is way over specked. That device could not possibly handle that amount of power, not even close. You could not build a driver that could for that price no matter what flea pit of a country you built it in.

One of the things I do note from the OP is that his amp gets hot. So I'm wondering if the VC is burnt and shorted, from trying to force output below its Fs that it can't reproduce.
I would certainly like to know what its DC resistance is now.

That device looks like one that should carry a warning, CONNECT AT YOUR OWN RISK!

 

[everettT]

Did I ever get an answer if his speakers were set to small in the AVR?

 

[lovinthehd]

Did I ever get an answer if his speakers were set to small in the AVR?

Not that I've seen, asked about bass management/settings several times.

 

[Jimbo96]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys. I was on the road. I love the wife set up. Having yours upstairs is a great idea. Yes, the drivers I bought were the NVX VSW 154 V2. I thought the higher sensitivity would be a good thing. I should have studied harder!
As far as the bass management, I have the sub pre out up all the way. I don't think there is a large or small in that setting. I would love to learn more about bass management.
What I was thinking of doing to test the amp is when I get the new art box is, I took the plate amp out of my JBL S120PII, Its 400watt rms. I think if I use that speaker for test purposes, it should let me know if the amp is working. I think?
I heard somewhere out here that not only can you turn up the pre out sub, but there is also a way to turn up the LFE.
I was doing my testing on 7 channel stereo. I never got a chance to try any test frequencies
The noise floor was way too high. I'm hoping it was the art box with the issue.
When I used the MIC 2200 instead of the art box it was a lot cleaner but had no volume.
Will a car audio driver work behind a pro amp at all? I haven't seen ant DVC drivers in home or pro audio.

 

[CharlesJones166]

It sounds like there might be a few issues going on with your setup. Here are some things to check:

1. Make sure your cables are all properly connected and that there are no loose connections or frayed wires.
2. Double-check that your settings on the Yamaha receiver are correct, including the channel assignment, input settings, and speaker size/level settings.
3. Check that your ART CleanBox Pro is properly set up and configured, including the switches on the back of the unit.
4. Make sure your Behringer Ultra Gain Pro MIC2200 is set up correctly and isn't introducing any unwanted distortion or noise into the signal chain.
5. Check that your subwoofers are properly wired and configured for the correct impedance (i.e. 4 ohms or 8 ohms) and that they are positioned and set up correctly in the room.

If you've checked all of the above and are still having issues, it's possible that there may be a problem with the EP4000 amp itself. You could try connecting a different set of speakers or a different source to the amp to see if it works properly in those scenarios. If you continue to have issues, you may want to consider having the amp serviced or replaced.

 

[highfigh]

As far as I know that is the one. It looks to be a very nasty device indeed. I am certain it is way over specked. That device could not possibly handle that amount of power, not even close. You could not build a driver that could for that price no matter what flea pit of a country you built it in.

One of the things I do note from the OP is that his amp gets hot. So I'm wondering if the VC is burnt and shorted, from trying to force output below its Fs that it can't reproduce.
I would certainly like to know what its DC resistance is now.

That device looks like one that should carry a warning, CONNECT AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I didn't see that this arrangement actually made a lot of sound and if it never did, I doubt the VC has scraped anything but it should have put the amplifiers into protection if it's shorted and showing extremely low DC resistance. I agree that it needs to be checked for shorted VC.

 

[highfigh]

I think I'm going crazy. I keep throwing money at this project and getting nowhere. Hoping someone can help.
I have 2-15" subs. Trying to power with the ep4000. I'm using the art clean pro box in line. The lights on the amp seem to be working good. I can go all the way to clipping and get almost no sound from the speakers, just a lot of heat. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any help on this would be extremely appreciated.

Yamaha TSR-7850
Art clean box pro
Behringer ultra gain pro mic 2200
MVX VSW154 V2 x2

Why are you using a mic preamp and where is it in the signal path?

 

[Eppie]

@Jimbo96 a quick primer on bass management. There are two components to bass in an AVR. Bass that is part of the main channels and the Low Frequency Effects (LFE) channel. LFE content is found in movies and it is the .1 that is part of 5.1 surround tracks. There are two crossover settings in most AVRs. A subwoofer crossover and the LFE setting. Since the LFE content gets routed to the subwoofer output on the AVR, the LFE settings is typically set at the max of 120Hz so as not to cut off any LFE content.

The subwoofer settings come into play with the rest of the bass content. In your AVR speaker setup If the subwoofer is disabled the speakers get a full range signal. With the subwoofer enabled, content below the crossover frequency will get routed to the subwoofer. A typical value for the crossover is 80Hz but can be adjusted to suit the speakers and room. Note that when the subwoofer out on the AVR is used the crossover setting on the subwoofer plate amp is set to max so as not to conflict with the AVR crossover setting (the plate amp control is used when passing a full range signal to the subwoofer).

What gets confusing for some is the speaker size setting and subwoofer mode setting on the AVR. If the subwoofer mode is LFE only, then only the LFE track gets routed to the subwoofer output. To get both LFE and bass content, the mode is set to "LFE + Main" (this is for Denon and other makes may use different wording). So if you play 2 channel music and the subwoofer mode is set to LFE, you will not get any bass content sent to the subwoofer output. LFE + Main is the setting normally used.

Setting the speakers to large or small determines where the bass content goes. If all speakers are set to small then all bass content goes to the subwoofer only. If the speakers are set to large, bass content gets sent to both the subwoofer and the large speakers. For example, if you had full range towers for your L+R, you could set them to large and set all other speakers to small. It is common to set all speakers to small and let the subwoofer handle the lower frequencies as few people have true full range towers. Some people will set the L+R to large to get added mid-bass. That's a personal choice. Some AVRs use different terms for this like "double bass" on Onkyo AVRs.

So you can see that it's possible not to get any bass signal to your subwoofer if the AVR settings are incorrect.

 

[Eppie]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys. I was on the road. I love the wife set up. Having yours upstairs is a great idea. Yes, the drivers I bought were the NVX VSW 154 V2. I thought the higher sensitivity would be a good thing. I should have studied harder!
<snip>
Will a car audio driver work behind a pro amp at all? I haven't seen any DVC drivers in home or pro audio.

Car audio is a funny space. The aftermarket subs seem to be all about high SPL and not fidelity. The same can be said for a lot of pro gear. Pro subs generally do not go down to 20Hz or lower like home theatre equipment. They are designed for large wide open spaces so high SPL and a long throw is required to project sound out over long distances. That makes them unsuitable for home use. Likewise, as TLS Guy has pointed out, those car subs are not effective below 30Hz and thus a poor option for home theatre. Yes, you can drive any speaker with the right amp in theory but getting the proper desired result is another matter.

What's worrying is that you said the amp got hot but you had no sound when the speakers were wired for 2 ohms. You'll need to test both the speakers and amp now to make sure everything is still working and not damaged. I would only wire the speakers for 8 ohms for testing and if they work fine sell them. If you have a digital multi-meter you can wire the voice coils in series and the DC resistance should be close to 8 ohms. I would then turn on the amp with no speakers connected and measure the output of the Behringer at the binding posts and see if any DC voltage is present. DC on the output indicates a problem with the amp. If the DC voltage is 0 then you should be able to test another pair of speaker on the amp to make sure that it's still working. Keep it simple by using RCA to TRS cables from the L+R preout on your AVR or have a service shop check it over. You can use that amp with the subwoofer TLS Guy designed for you.

 

[Jimbo96]

I have checked all the connections over and over, and they all look fine.
I have to admit a lot of this is over my head. I'm trying to understand it. Not only that, but I thought I knew a lot about sound and sound equipment. I was way off. I think I have learned more here than I have all the years prior. I have never been this deep into the settings in my AVR. Thanks for helping with my crash course.
The reason I purchased the Mic 2200 was because someone said it would give the clean db gain I needed for the amp. I'm hoping the new art box will do that, and I can get rid of the Mic2200. Unless it will help somehow.
I know I picked the wrong drivers. I'm hoping I can use the JBL driver for testing until I can build the correct box with the proper driver. As per TLS Guy
The art bow should be here today, then I can figure where to go from there.

 

[Jimbo96]

Can you use the amp without any drivers hooked up without hurting it? I thought I read somewhere not to do that. I never knew that if you get DC voltage from the amp, it shows something is wrong.
I have the wrong drivers wired in series each not together which gave me 2.3 ohms ea. If the test goes well with the JBL driver, I will try wiring them in parallel. Should give me about 8 ohms ea.

 

[Eppie]

Can you use the amp without any drivers hooked up without hurting it? I thought I read somewhere not to do that. I never knew that if you get DC voltage from the amp, it shows something is wrong.
I have the wrong drivers wired in series each not together which gave me 2.3 ohms ea. If the test goes well with the JBL driver, I will try wiring them in parallel. Should give me about 8 ohms ea.

Yes, solid state amps can be turned on with no load. Some tube equipment should not be run without a load.

You have your terms backwards. Series is additive which will give 8 ohms. Parallel drops the resistance in half (when equal values). The actual formula is 1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 +...

 

[Jimbo96]

You're right, I have my terminology wrong, but I do know how to do it. Lol
Do you know of a good SPL meter app for a phone?
I do have all my speakers set to large. Seems like just the front mains should be large, and the rest set to small.

 

[Jimbo96]

Wow! Things keep getting worse! I just went to double-check the impedance of the drivers I just bought, and I think I killed them. They show 0 ohms now. That was only a short test! I guess that's what happens when you don't know what you are doing. I'm learning the expensive way!
# Don't tell my wife.

 

[Eppie]

As you are still learning, there are some things you can do to double check. If you still have access to the JBL driver measure it to make sure you have correct setting on the meter. If the JBL measures 8 ohms and the NVX 0 ohms, then the voice coils may be shot. Don't measure the NVX coils while connected in parallel or connected to the amp. The coils should be about 4 ohms individually or 8 ohms in series. Their design may lead to a lower DC resistance though. If the coils burned out, you can usual smell it up close as the insulation on the wires would have been burned off. You can also take a 9 volt battery and tap the leads across the speaker connectors. If the speaker is still good, it will make a popping sound and there will be movement in the cone. (Don't use a 9V battery on tweeters as it may damage them.)

As this is a dual VC speaker, make sure you have the polarity correct. For parallel connection the amp + connects to both speaker + and the amp - to both speaker -. In series the amp + connects one speaker + , that speaker VC - connects to the other VC + and the other VC - connects to the amp -. If you get one pair of VC connections backwards, then the two voice coils will work in opposition to each other and you will not get any output. This web site shows connect options for that speaker:

https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item-105463-NVX-VSW154-Version-2-VSW154v2.html

 

[Jimbo96]

Thanks. I'm real close to giving up. I will know better after checking things with the new art box. I'm not a quitter, but this is getting ridicules.
I can't imagine what you guys are thinking while putting up with me.
I have done wild and crazy stuff with cars, but this is a whole new animal.

 

[lovinthehd]

You're right, I have my terminology wrong, but I do know how to do it. Lol
Do you know of a good SPL meter app for a phone?
I do have all my speakers set to large. Seems like just the front mains should be large, and the rest set to small.

Actually all speakers generally should be set to "small" when using a sub (i.e. use bass management), the majority of bass content would be in the mains, too. I've used several phone apps for spl meter, they're often more similar than different (but a true measurement mic and software is a better way to go). Personally I never use the all-ch stereo type modes, sort of defeats the purpose of surround sound and doesn't provide an actual stereo image.

ps well, not never on the all-ch stereo thing, can be useful in parties where imaging isn't very useful anyways.

 

[Jimbo96]

What do use for music listening? Seems like a lot of the scenes put echo into the sound.