I have a question about connecting XLR cables

[Swerd]

@TLS Guy

While we're on the subject of balanced connections for analog audio signals, I've occasionally wondered why phonograph pickups never made use of balanced connections. Most moving magnet pickups produce signals of abut 5 mV, similar to that of microphones. It seems like that low signal level would benefit if it made use of a balanced connection.

I understand that the connection between a pickup and the phono pre-amp is not balanced because of their impedance differences. Is there something about a phonograph pickup, or a phono pre-amp, that makes it impractical to alter their output or input impedance to allow a balanced connection? Or, was this an extra complication that the audio industry never thought necessary during the 1950s or 60s?

And finally, if balanced connections were never used for low level signals from phonograph pickups, why do audiophools now rush to use them between analog sound sources, pre-amps, and external amplifiers? All of them involve signal voltages much higher than 5 mV. It does seem like balanced audio connections in home audio is a solution looking for a problem. XLR plugs make for better looking audio jewelry than RCA plugs.

 

[Trell]

One more thing---,,Once a digital signal is compressed you can up the bit rate or do what ever you want with it,,
A higher bitrate generally means better audio quality. “Bitrate is going to determine audio fidelity,” says producer and engineer Gus Berry. “You could have the greatest-sounding recording of all time, but if you played it with a low bitrate, it would sound worse on the other end So if I get higher bit rate technically the same audio should sound a bit better do I thinking correctly????

That depends. If the compression is lossy or not, and and the compression algorithm used, for instance.

 

[Swerd]

A higher bitrate generally means better audio quality. “Bitrate is going to determine audio fidelity,” says producer and engineer Gus Berry. “You could have the greatest-sounding recording of all time, but if you played it with a low bitrate, it would sound worse on the other end So if I get higher bit rate technically the same audio should sound a bit better do I thinking correctly????

There are limits to that. As long as the bitrate is high enough, increasing it will not make an audible difference. The bitrate in standard audio CDs reaches that high enough point. Increasing it beyond that does not make a difference when humans listen.

 

[Chris Anderson]

There are limits to that. As long as the bitrate is high enough, increasing it will not make an audible difference. The bitrate in standard audio CDs reaches that high enough point. Increasing it beyond that does not make a difference when humans listen.

That's interesting because my amp can open audio files wave or flack with 384 Khz with 32 bits if the human ear didn't hear Difference why someone is bothered make such a machine and audio files with such high numbers
Also HDMI/RCA converter is used to video signal for example from orginal first Xbox you have white yellow and green RCA connect to TV but when you connected this there cables to converter and from converter HDMI to TV picture resolution is upscale to higher
resolution not huge amount but enough to see Difference of that work with video picture should be working with audio I think

 

[Chris Anderson]

@TLS Guy

While we're on the subject of balanced connections for analog audio signals, I've occasionally wondered why phonograph pickups never made use of balanced connections. Most moving magnet pickups produce signals of abut 5 mV, similar to that of microphones. It seems like that low signal level would benefit if it made use of a balanced connection.

I understand that the connection between a pickup and the phono pre-amp is not balanced because of their impedance differences. Is there something about a phonograph pickup, or a phono pre-amp, that makes it impractical to alter their output or input impedance to allow a balanced connection? Or, was this an extra complication that the audio industry never thought necessary during the 1950s or 60s?

And finally, if balanced connections were never used for low level signals from phonograph pickups, why do audiophools now rush to use them between analog sound sources, pre-amps, and external amplifiers? All of them involve signal voltages much higher than 5 mV. It does seem like balanced audio connections in home audio is a solution looking for a problem. XLR plugs make for better looking audio jewelry than RCA plugs.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Pro-Ject has launched a new record player in its True Balanced Connection range, the X2 B turntable. It features a moving coil cartridge and, unusually for domestic hi-fi kit, a balanced XLR output.The X2 B joins a suite of products from Pro-Ject that are capable of forming completely balanced systems. Alongside standard phono RCA outputs, it sports a five-pin mini-XLR, which can also be found on the previously launched Pro-Ject X8 turntable and the S3 B and DS3 B phono boxes

 

[Swerd]

Pro-Ject has launched a new record player in its True Balanced Connection range, the X2 B turntable. It features a moving coil cartridge and, unusually for domestic hi-fi kit, a balanced XLR output.The X2 B joins a suite of products from Pro-Ject that are capable of forming completely balanced systems. Alongside standard phono RCA outputs, it sports a five-pin mini-XLR, which can also be found on the previously launched Pro-Ject X8 turntable and the S3 B and DS3 B phono boxes

You don’t seem to understand the point to my earlier question. Balanced connections for phonograph pickups were never adopted because they didn’t seem to offer a functional advantage for phonograph pickups. Why was this? TLS Guy might know some history that could explain this. Do you?

I don’t care that a company now sells a turntable with a moving coil cartridge and a balanced connection. It comes at $1,799 (US), a great increase in cost compared to other turntables sold by Pro Ject that cost well under $1,000.

Existing receivers, pre-amps, etc. are not capable of fully balanced connections for signals from turntables. What other gear is required before that turntable can be hooked up in a fully balanced connection? At what cost? That's a lot of money for no benefit.

Pro Ject offers this because it sees a potential market, now that balanced connections with XLR plugs are fashionable among audiophiles. Home audio got along well with those lowly unbalanced interconnects with RCA plugs for some 70 years. Balanced connections are a solution to a problem that only exists in the minds of people who have more money than sense.

 

[TLS Guy]

Simple star away and professional reply that's the way I like it thank you ok so my thinking was wrong least l know now if you don't ask you never finds out right? In your room I will add acoustics panels all around for better acustic= better sound I know what I talk about because my room have such a Thing and now I hear things what I don't hear before from speakers sound don't bounce like before you are a pro respect man respect

Again wrong. You do not want a dead listening room. The room has optimal dimension ratios, with a Schroeder frequency of around 170 Hz. There are multiple irregular reflections. The speakers have an off axis response that closely mirrors the axis response, and so the reflections closely track the axis response. This produces an excellent listening response confirmed with measurements. The problem comes when the off axis and on axis responses don't match. This is a common defect of a great many speakers.

I had a large selling Twin Cities dealer here who sells and installs a lot of high end HT last Wednesday. Immediately he expressed surprise there was no obvious acoustic treatment. There actually is, but you don't see it as such. Anyhow he was blown away by the sound, and said it was by far the best he had ever heard by a big margin. He particularly commented that the sound was huge and extended well beyond the boundaries of the room. The latter would not occur if acoustic treatments were plastered all over the walls.

 

[TLS Guy]

One more thing---,,Once a digital signal is compressed you can up the bit rate or do what ever you want with it,,
A higher bitrate generally means better audio quality. “Bitrate is going to determine audio fidelity,” says producer and engineer Gus Berry. “You could have the greatest-sounding recording of all time, but if you played it with a low bitrate, it would sound worse on the other end So if I get higher bit rate technically the same audio should sound a bit better do I thinking correctly????

You can up the bit rate of a compressed digital signal on paper, but the bits are all wasted. The digital file is actually unchanged. So once a digital file is compressed in any way it can not be restored in any way known to man.
So if you compress a wav.file you had better keep a copy of the original as you can not restore it without the original

I have pro software on my DAW for recording, editing and manipulating audio files in any way known to man. I have told you the truth, no matter what you might have heard elsewhere.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy

While we're on the subject of balanced connections for analog audio signals, I've occasionally wondered why phonograph pickups never made use of balanced connections. Most moving magnet pickups produce signals of abut 5 mV, similar to that of microphones. It seems like that low signal level would benefit if it made use of a balanced connection.

I understand that the connection between a pickup and the phono pre-amp is not balanced because of their impedance differences. Is there something about a phonograph pickup, or a phono pre-amp, that makes it impractical to alter their output or input impedance to allow a balanced connection? Or, was this an extra complication that the audio industry never thought necessary during the 1950s or 60s?

And finally, if balanced connections were never used for low level signals from phonograph pickups, why do audiophools now rush to use them between analog sound sources, pre-amps, and external amplifiers? All of them involve signal voltages much higher than 5 mV. It does seem like balanced audio connections in home audio is a solution looking for a problem. XLR plugs make for better looking audio jewelry than RCA plugs.

I think you know the answer is that they are audiophools. Theoretically you could make a balanced front end for balanced moving coil cartridges. However you would need two extra pins on the cartridge, and the front end would be much more complex. It would also increase the resistance to turning on the arm base, as there would be two extra wires. That would be a huge downside. It is just not worth it. It would make for complication with zero benefit.

 

[Swerd]

I think you know the answer is that they are audiophools. Theoretically you could make a balanced front end for balanced moving coil cartridges. However you would need two extra pins on the cartridge, and the front end would be much more complex. It would also increase the resistance to turning on the arm base, as there would be two extra wires. That would be a huge downside. It is just not worth it. It would make for complication with zero benefit.

Thanks.

Yes, I knew the audiophool explanation plays a role. But back in the days when I actually cared about turntables and pickups, I didn't know what a balanced connection was. Shielding low level signals from RFI/EMI was easy to understand, but balanced vs. unbalanced connections wasn't obvious to me at the time. And, apparently, among some, it still is poorly understood to this day.

The advent of digital recordings and CDs, made all this analog stuff join the ranks of other old school gear … such as vacuum tubes.

 

[MaxInValrico]

Pro-Ject has launched a new record player in its True Balanced Connection range, the X2 B turntable. It features a moving coil cartridge and, unusually for domestic hi-fi kit, a balanced XLR output.The X2 B joins a suite of products from Pro-Ject that are capable of forming completely balanced systems. Alongside standard phono RCA outputs, it sports a five-pin mini-XLR, which can also be found on the previously launched Pro-Ject X8 turntable and the S3 B and DS3 B phono boxes

Vinyl is analog.

 

[MaxInValrico]

You can up the bit rate of a compressed digital signal on paper, but the bits are all wasted. The digital file is actually unchanged. So once a digital file is compressed in any way it can not be restored in any way known to man.
So if you compress a wav.file you had better keep a copy of the original as you can not restore it without the original

I have pro software on my DAW for recording, editing and manipulating audio files in any way known to man. I have told you the truth, no matter what you might have heard elsewhere.

He knows. He has no life.

 

[Swerd]

That's interesting because my amp can open audio files wave or flack with 384 Khz with 32 bits if the human ear didn't hear Difference why someone is bothered make such a machine and audio files with such high numbers

You seem to misunderstand the difference between the inherent bit level of a digital recording and the rates at which a dac can decode these different bit densities. The bit level of a digital recording is fixed, unless a new compressed version is made from it. DACs have the ability to open and read recording with a number of different bit densities. Opening & reading a digital recording does not convert it into a higher or lower bit density.

Also HDMI/RCA converter is used to video signal for example from orginal first Xbox you have white yellow and green RCA connect to TV but when you connected this there cables to converter and from converter HDMI to TV picture resolution is upscale to higher resolution not huge amount but enough to see Difference of that work with video picture should be working with audio I think

Que? I think there might be a message in all that, but I can't understand what you wrote.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's interesting because my amp can open audio files wave or flack with 384 Khz with 32 bits if the human ear didn't hear Difference why someone is bothered make such a machine and audio files with such high numbers

Because some think its important due to advertising and poor information on the 'net?

 

[Trebdp83]

So, here it is, Chris. When people of various skill sets with years of experience and study regarding audio and video hardware and sofware tell you that your speakers will have the greatest impact on the sound of your system, believe them. They are not trying to lead you astray simply to sell you something.

You seem to have come under the influence of unscrupulous charlatans of which there is no shortage online. If I can be frank in response to your posts, Como Chingados?!! Deja de perseguir al dragón!!!

 

[Chris Anderson]

So, here it is, Chris. When people of various skill sets with years of experience and study regarding audio and video hardware and sofware tell you that your speakers will have the greatest impact on the sound of your system, believe them. They are not trying to lead you astray simply to sell you something.

You seem to have come under the influence of unscrupulous charlatans of which there is no shortage online. If I can be frank in response to your posts, Como Chingados?!! Deja de perseguir al dragón!!!

Si senior ))) I understand and I don't try fight with anybody I respect any answer I ask questions as a green man on this turf still learning thing some I understand some not I have a nice set up but where I am start eating I want more and more

 

[Trebdp83]

Ok. Now, I have a question for you. Do you have any SACDs or just CDs? The Yamaha CD-S2100 is limited to two channel output when playing SACDs and has no 5.1 analog outputs and also no HDMI output. Multichannel DSD signals are not supported over two channel analog ports or coaxial and optical ports.

If you want to enjoy SACDs with multichannel(5.1) tracks, you must get a player with HDMI output. A SACD player with just 5.1 analog outputs and no HDMI output will not work with the Yamaha RX-A6A because the RX-A6A has no multichannel analog inputs(EXT IN 7.1).

If you want to enjoy multichannel music from blu-ray music discs, DVD-AUDIO discs and SACD, Sony is the only source for a new player. You can spend lots of money on a used Oppo player but it is not necessary. You really only need to look at the Sony UBP-X800M2 to play all of those discs as well as CD and 4K blu-ray discs.

For files that contain Dolby Atmos and DSD signals, you can also connect the drive on which they are stored into the USB port on the Sony UBP-X800M2 and it will output the audio accordingly over HDMI. The player can also connect to a network media server and streaming services but that job is best left to the Yamaha for two channel audio rips and music service streams. The Yamaha MusicCast app is fantastic and I prefer it over Denon/Marantz HEOS app or Onkyo’s Controller app and DTS-Play-Fi companion apps.

Again, the Yamaha RX-A6A is a very capable machine with a DAC that does not need assistance from other devices. Simply connect a new player via HDMI cable to it and let it do its job. You won't regret it. If you don’t like the sound, get new speakers.

 

[highfigh]

@TLS Guy

While we're on the subject of balanced connections for analog audio signals, I've occasionally wondered why phonograph pickups never made use of balanced connections. Most moving magnet pickups produce signals of abut 5 mV, similar to that of microphones. It seems like that low signal level would benefit if it made use of a balanced connection.

I understand that the connection between a pickup and the phono pre-amp is not balanced because of their impedance differences. Is there something about a phonograph pickup, or a phono pre-amp, that makes it impractical to alter their output or input impedance to allow a balanced connection? Or, was this an extra complication that the audio industry never thought necessary during the 1950s or 60s?

And finally, if balanced connections were never used for low level signals from phonograph pickups, why do audiophools now rush to use them between analog sound sources, pre-amps, and external amplifiers? All of them involve signal voltages much higher than 5 mV. It does seem like balanced audio connections in home audio is a solution looking for a problem. XLR plugs make for better looking audio jewelry than RCA plugs.

The minute voltage from a phono cartridge would need to be amplified for this to be a good option, but AFTER a phono preamp could work, if it were needed but I suspect that it wasn't seen as necessary. For that matter, RCA connectors weren't always used for turntables, either- I had a Stromberg Carlson amplifier with mic/line and phono- the latter had two screws for the wires and while it wasn't HiFi, hum wouldn't have been acceptable in its application.

 

[highfigh]

That's interesting because my amp can open audio files wave or flack with 384 Khz with 32 bits if the human ear didn't hear Difference why someone is bothered make such a machine and audio files with such high numbers
Also HDMI/RCA converter is used to video signal for example from orginal first Xbox you have white yellow and green RCA connect to TV but when you connected this there cables to converter and from converter HDMI to TV picture resolution is upscale to higher
resolution not huge amount but enough to see Difference of that work with video picture should be working with audio I think

392K or whatever isn't the audio output- you seem to be confusing digital rates with audible frequency response and they're two very different things. We don't hear 15KHz in most case and if someone can hear 12KHZ after they reach the age of 40, it's usually because they have been careful about sound level exposure.