"HandShake" issues. Loss of audio when system turn on

[Slipkids88]

Has anyone experienced a loss of audio when you first turn on the system. I have to restart the system using control 4 as this issue happens intermittently.

 

[lovinthehd]

What is the system ?

 

[Slipkids88]

I went with Revel F36 concerta speakers with matching c25 center channel. 2 inceiling 6/1\2 for atmos, model c235, as well as 2 inwall 235"s for surround.
Gear:
Yamaha Rx-a6a AVR
Go video dual vcr
Panny blu ray ub9000
Yamaha dual casette deck
Pioneer carousel cd player
Nividea shield pro
NVR
Control 4
Router
Fios cable box

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm thinking perhaps @highfigh and @BMXTRIX will have some ideas for ya.

 

[Slipkids88]

Okay great

 

[TLS Guy]

I went with Revel F36 concerta speakers with matching c25 center channel. 2 inceiling 6/1\2 for atmos, model c235, as well as 2 inwall 235"s for surround.
Gear:
Yamaha Rx-a6a AVR
Go video dual vcr
Panny blu ray ub9000
Yamaha dual casette deck
Pioneer carousel cd player
Nividea shield pro
NVR
Control 4
Router
Fios cable box

Which of those units do you have the audio problem with when connecting?

 

[highfigh]

Has anyone experienced a loss of audio when you first turn on the system. I have to restart the system using control 4 as this issue happens intermittently.

Which source is used most when you start using the system? If you try to use different sources during system start-up, does this happen with all of them, or is it just one?

I would use the OEM remotes to turn on the various pieces of equipment, starting with the AVR. Turn on the TV, then add a source, waiting about 5-10 seconds between each. If it works correctly, ask the programmer to add a delay to the power cycle between devices. The C4 control system will let you press the button once and take care of the rest of the commands. You may not like waiting, but it's not up to you, the equipment needs time to turn on and that's not going to change.

You're not pressing the button for commands multiple times, are you? That causes all kinds of problems and if someone checks out the system and NEVER has problems, pay attention as you operate the remote control.

 

[Slipkids88]

Which of those units do you have the audio problem with when connecting?

Usually when I turn on the system it's Fios cable tv. I did switch to the shield streamer when it happened at startup, and no audio from you tube as well. I have video but no audio. It happens very intermittently, that's the weird thing. Control 4 turns on the AVR and tv simultaneously.

 

[Slipkids88]

Which source is used most when you start using the system? If you try to use different sources during system start-up, does this happen with all of them, or is it just one?

I would use the OEM remotes to turn on the various pieces of equipment, starting with the AVR. Turn on the TV, then add a source, waiting about 5-10 seconds between each. If it works correctly, ask the programmer to add a delay to the power cycle between devices. The C4 control system will let you press the button once and take care of the rest of the commands. You may not like waiting, but it's not up to you, the equipment needs time to turn on and that's not going to change.

You're not pressing the button for commands multiple times, are you? That causes all kinds of problems and if someone checks out the system and NEVER has problems, pay attention as you operate the remote control.

That seems like a great idea. The control 4 remote turns on the tv and avr simultaneously. When this happens, it says please wait,on my Sony TV, almost like the system' electronics need to catch up to one another.

 

[highfigh]

Usually when I turn on the system it's Fios cable tv. I did switch to the shield streamer when it happened at startup, and no audio from you tube as well. I have video but no audio. It happens very intermittently, that's the weird thing. Control 4 turns on the AVR and tv simultaneously.

OK, the TV and AVR are turned on at the same time, but the AVR needs some time before any other command is sent to it. This is well known and if the C4 system isn't programmed to do that, the programmer needs to fix it.

Is the TV box being turned off? Whose system is it? If the box isn't being turned off, make sure it hasn't turned off because of some power saving setting. Cable boxes may power off after a firmware update, too. Look at the box when you start the system- if you thought it was on, but wasn't and there's no power on command in the macro, it won't turn on, so a button is needed in the activity.

If Cable companies, ATT and anyone else who offers a set top box would have listened to integrators, starting more than 25 years ago, we wouldn't be discussing systems being out of synch but they remove discrete power commands and I would bet that they hate the frequent calls to tech support because of this.

Next time you lose audio, switch to a different device/activity and see if it works, then go back to Fios TV. I it works, you have a handshake/EDID problem.

 

[Slipkids88]

OK, the TV and AVR are turned on at the same time, but the AVR needs some time before any other command is sent to it. This is well known and if the C4 system isn't programmed to do that, the programmer needs to fix it.

Is the TV box being turned off? Whose system is it? If the box isn't being turned off, make sure it hasn't turned off because of some power saving setting. Cable boxes may power off after a firmware update, too. Look at the box when you start the system- if you thought it was on, but wasn't and there's no power on command in the macro, it won't turn on, so a button is needed in the activity.

If Cable companies, ATT and anyone else who offers a set top box would have listened to integrators, starting more than 25 years ago, we wouldn't be discussing systems being out of synch but they remove discrete power commands and I would bet that they hate the frequent calls to tech support because of this.

Next time you lose audio, switch to a different device/activity and see if it works, then go back to Fios TV. I it works, you have a handshake/EDID problem.

Very well said. It could be a timing issue if the fios cable box is dormant as well as turning on the tv and avr simultaneously. That seems to be the very issue at large. I think I'm gonna check this out as well as speak to my control 4 guy.

 

[Kleinst]

On the system with my Sony 3100ES, I have the issue with directTV where sometimes it takes 10-15 seconds for it the volume to kick in. (video is there right away if I remember). I was worried something was wrong with the AVR, but it doesn't do that at all with the XBOX which starts up right away volume and video.

Not sure if it's the handshake inherent in those two devices? Or that HDMI input? Or the HDM Cable?

Again, it's not every time either with the direct TV. Not the end of the world I guess but had me worried my HDMI card was going out once upon a time

 

[BMXTRIX]

Fios cable boxes never 'power off', they just switch to a splash screen which floats around and says 'Press Menu To Turn On', so there is always an active HDMI signal on Fios boxes and a maintained DHCP and EDID signal in place.

My guess, is that some sound setting may be getting transmitted to the Yamaha AVR at startup. I used to do this as sometimes customers would screw with audio settings and I always pushed it back to 'surround sound' and 'auto' for the input type. Some sources were analog or some were digital, and depending on selections, I would force that as the input type.

I'm currently running a couple of different Yamaha receivers in my setup, and both work perfectly without any audio problems that I've run into so far. All I do is power them on and off though, I don't switch inputs on them as that is managed externally.

I would think that upon power up, the C4 system should have a proper delay built into the system that would keep it from trying to switch inputs for several seconds after startup. But, typically products just ignore commands if they are in a transition state, it wouldn't keep them from operating properly.

I would reach out to the installation company and let them know you are having some issues, and be specific about what you're running into. You want to be able to recreate the situation on a somewhat consistent basis so they aren't just shooting in the dark if at all possible. There is nothing worse than a rarely intermittent problem. But, I would lean towards some command being sent to the AVR from the C4 system which is switching audio inputs at startup. It toggles through something, then ends up on a dead audio input at some point. I would bet if you used the Yamaha AVR remote and switched your audio input type back to 'digital', it may fix the issue.

You may want to look at the front of the Yamaha AVR and see what information it is giving you about audio when you DO have audio, and then again when you do NOT have audio, to see what is different.

If you have no audio at startup, does switching to another source through the remote correct the problem? That is, if you press 'CABLE' and there is no audio, then you press 'ROKU' (or whatever) do you then have audio? How about if you then switch back to 'CABLE'? Do NOT power off in between. Just leave the system on and switch sources.

I don't know enough about C4 programming to really know for sure what is causing this, and despite having a couple of Yamaha AVRs, it is not a problem I've run into when using my control system. But, I am not sending extraneous commands, and I have logic built in that prevents commands from being sent until after the unit is powered on.

 

[highfigh]

Very well said. It could be a timing issue if the fios cable box is dormant as well as turning on the tv and avr simultaneously. That seems to be the very issue at large. I think I'm gonna check this out as well as speak to my control 4 guy.

If the Fios box is dormant, that's not a timing issue, it's lack of voltage.

If you have an HDMI splitter, connect that at the AVR and see if it helps.

Vanco has devices that help with EDID- call them and discuss this.

 

[Slipkids88]

What a did for starters is to have the fios cable box not go into hibernation after 4 hrs. It's now set to remain on indefinitely as many issues I've been reading, is when your hardware remains idle for its next boot up. Let's see how this goes, the next option would be is to clear the HDMI lock up.

 

[Slipkids88]

That seems like a great idea. The control 4 remote turns on the tv and avr simultaneously. When this happens, it says please wait,on my Sony TV, almost like the system' electronics need to catch up to one another.

My control 4 tech put in a delay fix remotely this afternoon. He said to monitor it to see if it corrected the issue. I'll update this as I progress thru the days.

 

[Slipkids88]

Fios cable boxes never 'power off', they just switch to a splash screen which floats around and says 'Press Menu To Turn On', so there is always an active HDMI signal on Fios boxes and a maintained DHCP and EDID signal in place.

My guess, is that some sound setting may be getting transmitted to the Yamaha AVR at startup. I used to do this as sometimes customers would screw with audio settings and I always pushed it back to 'surround sound' and 'auto' for the input type. Some sources were analog or some were digital, and depending on selections, I would force that as the input type.

I'm currently running a couple of different Yamaha receivers in my setup, and both work perfectly without any audio problems that I've run into so far. All I do is power them on and off though, I don't switch inputs on them as that is managed externally.

I would think that upon power up, the C4 system should have a proper delay built into the system that would keep it from trying to switch inputs for several seconds after startup. But, typically products just ignore commands if they are in a transition state, it wouldn't keep them from operating properly.

I would reach out to the installation company and let them know you are having some issues, and be specific about what you're running into. You want to be able to recreate the situation on a somewhat consistent basis so they aren't just shooting in the dark if at all possible. There is nothing worse than a rarely intermittent problem. But, I would lean towards some command being sent to the AVR from the C4 system which is switching audio inputs at startup. It toggles through something, then ends up on a dead audio input at some point. I would bet if you used the Yamaha AVR remote and switched your audio input type back to 'digital', it may fix the issue.

You may want to look at the front of the Yamaha AVR and see what information it is giving you about audio when you DO have audio, and then again when you do NOT have audio, to see what is different.

If you have no audio at startup, does switching to another source through the remote correct the problem? That is, if you press 'CABLE' and there is no audio, then you press 'ROKU' (or whatever) do you then have audio? How about if you then switch back to 'CABLE'? Do NOT power off in between. Just leave the system on and switch sources.

I don't know enough about C4 programming to really know for sure what is causing this, and despite having a couple of Yamaha AVRs, it is not a problem I've run into when using my control system. But, I am not sending extraneous commands, and I have logic built in that prevents commands from being sent until after the unit is powered on.

I had my control 4 guy remotely put in a delay on start up and and will monitor going forward.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I had my control 4 guy remotely put in a delay on start up and and will monitor going forward.

Hopefully it fixes things for you.

A number of years ago I built a module for televisions to allow the system to remember on/off state and input state. So, if you pressed 'Input 3', it would check if the TV was on already, if it was not, it would power it on. Then, upon full power on state, it would check what input it was on. If it was on input 3 already, it would not issue the command to switch input, but if it was on a different input, it would send the TV to input 3.
If the TV was already on at the start of the request, it would immediately switch to input 3, but only if necessary.
It also had options for forcing an input on power up or to repeat an input request. So, if it was already on input 3, it would tell the display to go to input 3 a second time. Just enforcing that it is on the proper input.

I built this for commercial use for TVs, but I found that it worked really well for AV receivers and any other products that had a startup sequence that needed to be followed. For cable boxes I sent the 'MENU' button, then followed it with the 'EXIT' button, just in case it was already on. Make sure the FiOS boxes were ready to be used. Worked well. Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, and Sony AV receivers all worked really well with it.

Long ramble, but the idea is that if you have something that doesn't work perfectly, then it is up to the programmer to put something reliable in to ensure it works every single time. I control my Yamaha receivers over the network, and unless my network is down, the control has worked perfectly, for over a year now.

 

[highfigh]

That seems like a great idea. The control 4 remote turns on the tv and avr simultaneously. When this happens, it says please wait,on my Sony TV, almost like the system' electronics need to catch up to one another.

That "Please Wait" screen is for the users, not the system. It means "Don't touch this, you'll kill us all!".

Make sure nobody is repeating the button presses intentionally, or not. It's fairly common for people to press the button unconsciously and that causes all kinds of problems with code sequencing/macros.

 

[Slipkids88]

That "Please Wait" screen is for the users, not the system. It means "Don't touch this, you'll kill us all!".

Make sure nobody is repeating the button presses intentionally, or not. It's fairly common for people to press the button unconsciously and that causes all kinds of problems with code sequencing/macros.

Understood