Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Trell]

Well in this case with this 6 year old. We have read or heard nothing about the 6 year old's parents. Makes one wonder is this home filled with hate and violence, makes you wonder what kind of abuse is going on in the home. A 6 year old learns by example and that means the parents, or maybe brothers etc... Its been really quiet about the kids family.

I think it's too early to draw that kind of conclusions yet, and is a deflection (not accusing you of this) that will be used by the pro-gun proponents.

How did a six-year old get hold of a hand gun? Why are there so many hand guns in the population? Why is the Supreme Court striking down gun safety laws and regulations?

 

[highfigh]

Yet another shooting in an US school, and this time it was a six (yes, six) year old boy that shot and wounded his teacher who is seriously injured.

This is a consequence of US laws where people can carry hand guns more or less as they like in many places.

As far as politicians making safety a 'back seat' issue, follow the money.

That kid is six years old and you're concluding that everyone is waving a gun in the air- that doesn't happen in most places but it does happen where people's first reaction to an altercation is violence.

We don't know anything about this kid, other than his age. However, if this kid has been considered 'normal', the problem between him and the teacher didn't start on that day. If it did and he brought a gun to school before, his parent(s) need to be slapped, then arrested.

Let's wait until the details come in before blaming America for something you hate.

I blame media for a lot of these shootings. Boys, specifically, see someone firing a gun and think it's cool while girls, not so much. When the news shows idiots firing a Glock with an extended magazine and a 'switch' out of a car window as they drive, it's anything BUT cool, it's a stupid thing to show and it sensationalizes firearm use & carelessness. None of this was general viewing for TV or movies until cable TV came along because it could be seen only by subscribers- music videos, news, movies, TV, anything that glamorizes this needs to return to a different rating and be restricted, so kids can't see it, IMO

Kenneth Twyman nearly freed again, bail reform needed, lawmaker says

In a big-time bail-out, someone paid more than $100,000 cash to spring Kenneth Twyman, a three-time fugitive, from jail again. One state lawmaker says this is a prime example of the need for bail reform.

www.fox6now.com

 

[highfigh]

I think it's too early to draw that kind of conclusions yet, and is a deflection (not accusing you of this) that will be used by the pro-gun proponents.

How did a six-year old get hold of a hand gun? Why are there so many hand guns in the population? Why is the Supreme Court striking down gun safety laws and regulations?

Some people buy guns because they're overreacting to some perceived threat to their security, some use them for target shooting/hunting/law enforcement/employment and many are just hoarding them for whatever they think will come after civilization collapses. They don't usually cause problems, but they can. The vast majority of gun crimes are committed by people who can't legally possess a gun, but it's not a one-source problem. A huge black market for guns exists and it's not only in the US- it's worldwide and guns stolen in one place are shipped and used for crimes in other states, countries, continents. The number of guns stolen from cars is ridiculous and it needs to stop, preferably by penalizing those who left them where they're accessible without effort.

Wayne LaPierre has really done a lot of damage as leader of the NRA, but Charleton Heston, with his "...cold dead hands' comment was a moment of stupidity that resonated with too many pinheads who have a har*on for guns. You have have seen a few, wearing a serving platter sized belt buckle with 'The Right To Bear Arms' on the face. If you see one of these, ask them to recite the whole 2nd Amendment- I'll bet they can't, because those five words are the only thing they can remember. It's similar to answering with "Because I can".

Just because they can, doesn't mean they should.

 

[Trell]

As far as politicians making safety a 'back seat' issue, follow the money.

That kid is six years old and you're concluding that everyone is waving a gun in the air- that doesn't happen in most places but it does happen where people's first reaction to an altercation is violence.

We don't know anything about this kid, other than his age. However, if this kid has been considered 'normal', the problem between him and the teacher didn't start on that day. If it did and he brought a gun to school before, his parent(s) need to be slapped, then arrested.

Let's wait until the details come in before blaming America for something you hate.

I blame media for a lot of these shootings. Boys, specifically, see someone firing a gun and think it's cool while girls, not so much. When the news shows idiots firing a Glock with an extended magazine and a 'switch' out of a car window as they drive, it's anything BUT cool, it's a stupid thing to show and it sensationalizes firearm use & carelessness. None of this was general viewing for TV or movies until cable TV came along because it could be seen only by subscribers- music videos, news, movies, TV, anything that glamorizes this needs to return to a different rating and be restricted, so kids can't see it, IMO

Kenneth Twyman nearly freed again, bail reform needed, lawmaker says

In a big-time bail-out, someone paid more than $100,000 cash to spring Kenneth Twyman, a three-time fugitive, from jail again. One state lawmaker says this is a prime example of the need for bail reform.

www.fox6now.com

Yet again you’re deflecting from the consequences of the gun laws you support. This time a six year old shot his teacher with a hand gun he should not have had access to.

 

[highfigh]

Yet again you’re deflecting from the consequences of the gun laws you support. This time a six year old shot his teacher with a hand gun he should not have had access to.

How did you not understand, from my posts, that guns are available to people when they should have been secured?

If you just don't want to agree with me, fine, but I have posted this many times. Guns can't be strewn around the house like half-read magazines or newspapers and when kids are around, it's time to think about making them completely inaccessible or removing them completely. If someone actually needs a gun to protect themselves in the home, should they be raising children in that house?

You must be high if you think I want everyone to have guns. That's the last thing I want- if people are criminals, generally careless, have an exceptionally reactive personality or are too lazy/complacent/stupid to practice, I don't want them having/carrying guns close to me, anywhere. Someone who engages in a shootout on a street because of road rage, which is happening here far too often, is risking the lives of people in a wide area and people are dying because of their stupidity.

The laws I would support haven't been written, yet. Violent idiots are being released after shooting at people in crowds, killing someone/under house arrest/killing again and after spending time in prison. What laws are working in those situations? The judicial system needs to be changed, and damned soon. People need to change, but they don't want to, unless, as we have seen recently, that change is toward being worse, as people. MKE went from 97 homicides in 2019 to 190 in 2000, 196 in 2021 and 224 in 2022.

 

[Mikado463]

highfigh, as a lawful and responsible gun owner I will tell you, some folks are not worth the time trying to reason with..........

 

[Trell]

How did you not understand, from my posts, that guns are available to people when they should have been secured?

If you just don't want to agree with me, fine, but I have posted this many times. Guns can't be strewn around the house like half-read magazines or newspapers and when kids are around, it's time to think about making them completely inaccessible or removing them completely. If someone actually needs a gun to protect themselves in the home, should they be raising children in that house?

You must be high if you think I want everyone to have guns. That's the last thing I want- if people are criminals, generally careless, have an exceptionally reactive personality or are too lazy/complacent/stupid to practice, I don't want them having/carrying guns close to me, anywhere. Someone who engages in a shootout on a street because of road rage, which is happening here far too often, is risking the lives of people in a wide area and people are dying because of their stupidity.

The laws I would support haven't been written, yet. Violent idiots are being released after shooting at people in crowds, killing someone/under house arrest/killing again and after spending time in prison. What laws are working in those situations? The judicial system needs to be changed, and damned soon. People need to change, but they don't want to, unless, as we have seen recently, that change is toward being worse, as people. MKE went from 97 homicides in 2019 to 190 in 2000, 196 in 2021 and 224 in 2022.

How do you not understand that flooding the society with guns, including hand guns, is what leads to tragic incidents like the one above with a six year old?

 

[highfigh]

How do you not understand that flooding the society with guns, including hand guns, is what leads to tragic incidents like the one above with a six year old?

You think the guns are flooding the market? People BUY guns, they're not literally forced on them.

That said, the way guns are often advertised, it's just using human nature against the impressionable ones who have a hard time thinking about why they may/may not need a gun, why they feel some sense of urgency and then, deciding if they'll still get a gun, even though they would be in violation of existing gun laws just by having or being near it.

WHO made this possible? The kid didn't buy the gun, shouldn't have been able to access it and hte school didn't use metal detectors to make sure guns don't enter the building.

Do you actually think most people are cute, little angels who do no wrong? Pull your head out of the sand!

So, no comments about the guy in Utah who stabbed four students, killing all of them? I suppose the killer wasn't at fault in that either, eh?

Typical.

 

[Trell]

highfigh, as a lawful and responsible gun owner I will tell you, some folks are not worth the time trying to reason with..........

So many (almost all?) Pro-gun 2nd amendment people are immune to reasoning involving research and other studies. They just want to have their guns not caring about the consequences.

 

[Trell]

So, no comments about the guy in Utah who stabbed four students, killing all of them? I suppose the killer wasn't at fault in that either, eh?

Typical.

 

[highfigh]

So many (almost all?) Pro-gun 2nd amendment people are immune to reasoning involving research and other studies. They just want to have their guns not caring about the consequences.

Give it up. All you have is info that comes from afar- it's like saying "I hear people are doing bad things", rather than hearing or seeing those bad things happening in real time. You can read about it al you want, but that won't help you to understand what's happening here (US, not just where I live).

"Almost all"? There you go again, believing that everyone in a large group think alike. You do the same when mentioning your favorite hate group, Republicans. I have a lot of problems with them too, but I haven't closed my mind to the fact that not all think like the pinheads in Congress and the far Right. I don't believe all on the Left think alike because that would be an incorrect conclusion- you might try to avoid your own incorrect conclusions, for once.

 

[Trell]

Give it up. All you have is info that comes from afar- it's like saying "I hear people are doing bad things", rather than hearing or seeing those bad things happening in real time. You can read about it al you want, but that won't help you to understand what's happening here (US, not just where I live).

"Almost all"? There you go again, believing that everyone in a large group think alike. You do the same when mentioning your favorite hate group, Republicans. I have a lot of problems with them too, but I haven't closed my mind to the fact that not all think like the pinheads in Congress and the far Right. I don't believe all on the Left think alike because that would be an incorrect conclusion- you might try to avoid your own incorrect conclusions, for once.

There are a number of studies linked to earlier in this thread about this, as I recall, that is not derived from listening to a police radio.

 

[highfigh]

There are a number of studies linked to earlier in this thread about this, as I recall, that is not derived from listening to a police radio.

I was referring to seeing and hearing the events when I'm outside of my house or driving, not listening to the scanner.

Maybe the people involved in those studies should listen to what's happening, not getting the info second or third-hand. I suppose they're afraid of going to the cities where crime is becoming a problem that the local governments can't solve. All you can do is think that you understand the results of the studies (I really hope they have focus groups, too ) but you WON'T fully understand until you live where it's happening.

 

[Trell]

All you can do is think that you understand the results of the studies (I really hope they have focus groups, too ) but you WON'T fully understand until you live where it's happening.

Quite a weak and myopic argument.

 

[highfigh]

Quite a weak and myopic argument.

...wrote the guy whose country has almost nothing that exists in the US WRT crime....

 

[Trell]

...wrote the guy whose country has almost nothing that exists in the US WRT crime....

We have a lot of violent crime here as well with thin skinned gang members shooting at each other, usually with no regard for other people that just happens to be nearby.

A legacy from the Balkan war is weapons originating from there that is smuggled in to Sweden.

 

[highfigh]

We have a lot of violent crime here as well with thin skinned gang members shooting at each other, usually with no regard for other people that just happens to be nearby.

A legacy from the Balkan war is weapons originating from there that is smuggled in to Sweden.

Shooting at, but if the link is accurate, they're not killing each other. This shows that that the whole country had 124 homicides in 2020- the problem of who is firing weapons is similar, to a point, but the number is lower than in Milwaukee, which has roughly 6% of Sweden's population, if Wiki is correct. Then, if you consider the small area where most homicides occur in this city and the corresponding population, it shows that the problem is far worse than if it were evenly distributed.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/533917/sweden-number-of-homicides/

In Milwaukee, if the guns guns used in crimes weren't stolen in the area, it's likely that they crossed the Wisconsin/Illinois state line and the same applies to other cities and states outside of Wisconsin- the market for stolen guns is very active in North America and they move around the whole continent, often over a time span of decades. Many of the gangs in the US are offshoots of the cartels in Mexico/Central/South America.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Isn't this just peachy.
Untraceable 3D-printed 'ghost guns' on the rise in Canada | CBC News

 

[cpp]

Shooting at, but if the link is accurate, they're not killing each other. This shows that that the whole country had 124 homicides in 2020- the problem of who is firing weapons is similar, to a point, but the number is lower than in Milwaukee, which has roughly 6% of Sweden's population, if Wiki is correct. Then, if you consider the small area where most homicides occur in this city and the corresponding population, it shows that the problem is far worse than if it were evenly distributed.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/533917/sweden-number-of-homicides/

In Milwaukee, if the guns guns used in crimes weren't stolen in the area, it's likely that they crossed the Wisconsin/Illinois state line and the same applies to other cities and states outside of Wisconsin- the market for stolen guns is very active in North America and they move around the whole continent, often over a time span of decades. Many of the gangs in the US are offshoots of the cartels in Mexico/Central/South America.

Just read that " 2,000 Illegal Weapons Cross US-Mexico Border Per Day". With NO real boarder regulations, I'm surprised that number is not a lot higher. As they just don't know.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Until gun owners are held fully and completely liable for their weapons, this will be a continuous issue. Things may change someday, but the gun nut lobby is a powerful force. The lie of the NRA continues to blow me away. Anyone that thinks the NRA is about gun safety, needs to only look at all the bills the NRA has proposed to the government that are about gun safety vs. their legal stance on arming as many people as possible and protecting that right first and foremost.

Do the parents of that six year old need to be locked up? Yep! Locked up and charged with attempted murder. Not only are they responsible for their child, they are JUST as responsible for their gun.

The number of guns that end up in the hands of criminals with little or no recourse and penalty for the supplier of that gun is ridiculous.

There are some solutions that are available, and some which could work very well. Smart guns are certainly one of those things that could provide some excellent and practical safety options. Yet, major manufacturers don't pursue them and people actively BOYCOT and PROTEST against smart weapons in this nation.

Imagine if the parents of that 6 year old had a gun that had been setup to only be able to be fired by the parents? Kid shows up to school, pulls out the gun.... "click" ... Nothing happens. Imagine this on a national level where a criminal breaks into your home, steals your gun, then points it at you and "click"... nothing happens. It's not for every person or situation, but it is one of those things that would help.

Still, until all gun owners are 100% liable for maintaining their guns and are held accountable, this nation will continue to have a gun issue. From people buying for others, to casual buyers who never once practice their use, to the lazy who just leave them sitting around for kids to find.

There are some, and I would daresay that most are responsible gun owners. But, this nation has failed to protect its citizens from the guns we have. While we improve cars and work to make them safer, guns continue to just shoot upward in the number of deaths caused annually. I'm not against the second amendment, but I'm not sure we can ever enact any useful gun legislation without some sort of modification to it.