Want another cassette deck...heart set on a Yamaha K1000...

[3db]

With direct drive, 0.03%WF, SNR of -103 db, I gotta find one.

 

[KEW]

With direct drive, 0.03%WF, SNR of -103 db, I gotta find one.

Wow!
I had no idea the SNR was down to -100dB!
IIRC, my Nak was in the mid -70's
What did they do beyond Dolby C?
Did they get better with Dbx compression system?

 

[3db]

The KX-1200 SNR is as follows
No NR better than 61db,
Dolby B, better than 69 db,
Dolby C, better than 77 db,
dbx, better than 95 db.

The KX800 which I have two off has the same specs as the KX1200 except that its dbx spec says greater than 90 db.

With dbx, there is no audible tape hiss.

There is no arguement from me that NAKs were good machines but they were far from the only game in town. Both my Yamaha models mentioned in this post had a frequency response of 20Hz to 18KHz with normal bias tape. The KX800 went up to 22KHz and the KX1200 went up as high as 23KHz with metal tape.

 

[davidscott]

I recall reading once that the more powerful the NR system the more easily the sound of the source is altered. Some listeners back in the day would actually listen through the hiss. Never had a dbx deck but a lot of people claimed they could hear it "breathe" as it manipulated the sound levels. Like I said I only went as far as dolby c and didn't hear any of that. That said I always had a cassette deck in the system until around 2010 or 2o. Can't imagine ever owning one again due mainly to the inconvenience and lack of quality blank tapes today.

 

[TLS Guy]

The KX-1200 SNR is as follows
No NR better than 61db,
Dolby B, better than 69 db,
Dolby C, better than 77 db,
dbx, better than 95 db.

The KX800 which I have two off has the same specs as the KX1200 except that its dbx spec says greater than 90 db.

With dbx, there is no audible tape hiss.

There is no arguement from me that NAKs were good machines but they were far from the only game in town. Both my Yamaha models mentioned in this post had a frequency response of 20Hz to 18KHz with normal bias tape. The KX800 went up to 22KHz and the KX1200 went up as high as 23KHz with metal tape.

dbx 2 is problematic with cassette machines. It is true that it is most effective at removing hiss. However dbx works very differently to Dolby.

Cassette tape machines are basically Lo-Fi devices, that need a lot of help to make them acceptable. The problem is that any frequency response errors are doubled. You really can not get even the best tape machines to operate to a good enough spec. However the modulation noise of cassette tape is amplified by dbx and that is a big problem.

Even Dolby C is s problem with tapes made on different machines.

My TEAC professional mastering deck has dbx 2. However I never really got satisfactory results with it, even after absolutely obsessional machine calibration.

To be honest the best overall results come from Dolby B recordings in my view. The only thing that can really be said about cassette machines is that they are better than 8 track!

I also have an off board dbx 2 code encoder, that also has the dbx 2 LP decoder. I do also have an off board Dolby B encoder and decoder. I do have both some Dolby B and dbx 2 encoded commercial pre-recorded tapes. Again dbx 2 is fickle, and I think the Dolby tapes are the better bet, although the dbx 2 at 7.5 ips four track open reel is much better than cassette. I have some dbx 2 LPs, and some of these are stunning. My turntables have a really flat FR.

I have a couple of dbx 1 encode/decoders for my open reel machines. dbx 1 is even more fastidious and requires the machines to be in perfect condition. It gives best results at 15 ips two track. That is the format of almost all my open reel masters from my recordings.

The bottom line is that I do not think it is worth the trouble looking for a dbx 2 cassette deck. Looking for a dbx 2 unit to use with your existing machine is also an option if you want to experiment.

You sound like an ideal candidate for a good open reel machine!

 

[3db]

dbx 2 is problematic with cassette machines. It is true that it is most effective at removing hiss. However dbx works very differently to Dolby.

Cassette tape machines are basically Lo-Fi devices, that need a lot of help to make them acceptable. The problem is that any frequency response errors are doubled. You really can not get even the best tape machines to operate to a good enough spec. However the modulation noise of cassette tape is amplified by dbx and that is a big problem.

Even Dolby C is s problem with tapes made on different machines.

My TEAC professional mastering deck has dbx 2. However I never really got satisfactory results with it, even after absolutely obsessional machine calibration.

To be honest the best overall results come from Dolby B recordings in my view. The only thing that can really be said about cassette machines is that they are better than 8 track!

I also have an off board dbx 2 code encoder, that also has the dbx 2 LP decoder. I do also have an off board Dolby B encoder and decoder. I do have both some Dolby B and dbx 2 encoded commercial pre-recorded tapes. Again dbx 2 is fickle, and I think the Dolby tapes are the better bet, although the dbx 2 at 7.5 ips four track open reel is much better than cassette. I have some dbx 2 LPs, and some of these are stunning. My turntables have a really flat FR.

I have a couple of dbx 1 encode/decoders for my open reel machines. dbx 1 is even more fastidious and requires the machines to be in perfect condition. It gives best results at 15 ips two track. That is the format of almost all my open reel masters from my recordings.

The bottom line is that I do not think it is worth the trouble looking for a dbx 2 cassette deck. Looking for a dbx 2 unit to use with your existing machine is also an option if you want to experiment.

You sound like an ideal candidate for a good open reel machine!

Then you should have went with Yamaha and not Teac because all 4 of my dbx2 machines work flawlessly with both Dolby C and dbx. Your bad experience doesn't make it a factual problem. Furthermore, I recorded on 3 out of the 4 dbx2 equipped decks and I can play them across all 4 decks without issue. Maybe Yamaha just implemented correctly as I'm extremely impressed with it.

I've recorded all genres of music with these decks including classical and the results were stellar. If Yamaha specced their machines to record 20 to 20KHz, then they can do it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Then you should have went with Yamaha and not Teac because all 4 of my dbx2 machines work flawlessly with both Dolby C and dbx. Your bad experience doesn't make it a factual problem. Furthermore, I recorded on 3 out of the 4 dbx2 equipped decks and I can play them across all 4 decks without issue. Maybe Yamaha just implemented correctly as I'm extremely impressed with it.

I've recorded all genres of music with these decks including classical and the results were stellar. If Yamaha specced their machines to record 20 to 20KHz, then they can do it.

My TEAC works fine on the same machine. The problems come with sending the tape to someone with a different machine. That was my situation invariably. Even Dolby C is not reliable for that. Dolby B is tolerant in the extreme.

Nothing is as good as open reel and dbx 1 though at 15 ips. That has a better dynamic range than CD. Until I started my 'museum" I only really used tape machines professionally not for pleasure. So they were workhorses of the pre digital era.

 

[3db]

My TEAC works fine on the same machine. The problems come with sending the tape to someone with a different machine. That was my situation invariably. Even Dolby C is not reliable for that. Dolby B is tolerant in the extreme.

Nothing is as good as open reel and dbx 1 though at 15 ips. That has a better dynamic range than CD. Until I started my 'museum" I only really used tape machines professionally not for pleasure. So they were workhorses of the pre digital era.

I do have a dual well Pioneer with dbx2 that I bought accidently on Ebay but it needs work. Its far from reference. I learned how to adjust the tape speed so I will perform that calibration. I will also try and align the heads by ear as I have no calibration equipment for that.

 

[John Parks]

Looks like there’s two on (US) Ebay and one offered from Quebec Audio: https://www.hifishark.com/model/yamaha-k-1000

 

[FormerVermonter]

I just picked up a K-1000 and notice on the left-side capstan there is what looks like very short bristles you might see on a brush (such as an old-style shaving cream brush) hanging down off of it, almost as though it’s supposed to be there. A cotton swab cleaning didn’t remove it. Playing and recording work fine. I’ve been playing cassettes for about 45 years and I’ve never seen anything like this on the capstan. Any ideas?

I really like this deck. The owner of a local repair shop passed away; it’s a deck that I asked him about a few times but he never seemed ready to sell it. The bias adjust seems to not be working, so I’d like to find a way to repair that if it actually needs repairing. The ORBiT test doesn’t seem to be responding the way it supposed to, either— The counter doesn’t always convert to the meter, and when it does, the bias adjust appears to have no effect. Any insights and/or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[TLS Guy]

I just picked up a K-1000 and notice on the left-side capstan there is what looks like very short bristles you might see on a brush (such as an old-style shaving cream brush) hanging down off of it, almost as though it’s supposed to be there. A cotton swab cleaning didn’t remove it. Playing and recording work fine. I’ve been playing cassettes for about 45 years and I’ve never seen anything like this on the capstan. Any ideas?

I really like this deck. The owner of a local repair shop passed away; it’s a deck that I asked him about a few times but he never seemed ready to sell it. The bias adjust seems to not be working, so I’d like to find a way to repair that if it actually needs repairing. The ORBiT test doesn’t seem to be responding the way it supposed to, either— The counter doesn’t always convert to the meter, and when it does, the bias adjust appears to have no effect. Any insights and/or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!

There is something wrapped around that capstan that should not be there. It is something fibrous. It needs to come off, but you will have to take care doing it, so as not to damage the capstan. That tape head looks to be in rough shape also.

BIAS in adjustment for recording only and has to be set by instruments, for each brand and type of tape. It is very critical adjustment and requires a very accurate volt meter and a signal generator.

It looks to me as if that deck need a lot of TLC and probably professional attention.

 

[FormerVermonter]

There is something wrapped around that capstan that should not be there. It is something fibrous. It needs to come off, but you will have to take care doing it, so as not to damage the capstan. That tape head looks to be in rough shape also.

BIAS in adjustment for recording only and has to be set by instruments, for each brand and type of tape. It is very critical adjustment and requires a very accurate volt meter and a signal generator.

It looks to me as if that deck need a lot of TLC and probably professional attention.

Thank you for the reply!

I definitely agree; I think whatever that stuff is shouldn’t be there. Oddly enough, the tapes play and record just as he would want. Fast forward and reverse however, can sometimes be a little clunky. Almost as though the tape is wound so tight that the machine had to struggle to move it; but then other tapes wind perfectly fine.

I got the deck at the estate sale at the former place of business for a local stereo repair shop. The owner passed away. He had this deck out on the floor and I had asked him a few times how much he thought it would sell for. I never did get a price from him; I think he liked it too, and didn’t really want to sell it. Found out from his son later that his father had this deck as part of his personal set-up at one point.

I also agree about the look of that head. Maybe I didn’t work it long enough with the cotton swab, or maybe it requires some other solution. Cool deck, though.

 

[highfigh]

There is no arguement from me that NAKs were good machines but they were far from the only game in town. Both my Yamaha models mentioned in this post had a frequency response of 20Hz to 18KHz with normal bias tape. The KX800 went up to 22KHz and the KX1200 went up as high as 23KHz with metal tape.

How did they measure frequency response, at 0VU, or -20VU (more typical)?

 

[3db]

How did they measure frequency response, at 0VU, or -20VU (more typical)?

Measured to the same standards as Nak.

 

[highfigh]

Measured to the same standards as Nak.

That tells me absolutely nothing- I never worked for a Mak dealer, so I never bothered to see how they rated their machines, but I did see one of theirs crap the bed during a Sony Tape Deck Clinic at our store- it had a list price of roughly $800 at a time when that was more likely to buy an open reel machine.

So, could you just answer the question?

EDIT- Here's the manual and the link shows that the frequency response is rated at -20dB, because it's far better at that level. At -0dB, the heads and tape saturation don't allow great high frequency response, or headroom. -20dB is the standard testing level- if a manufacturer wants to test at -0dB, it's up to them.

Specifications; Optional Accessories - Nakamichi Dragon Owner's Manual [Page 16]

Nakamichi Dragon Manual Online: specifications, Optional Accessories.

www.manualslib.com

 

[highfigh]

I just picked up a K-1000 and notice on the left-side capstan there is what looks like very short bristles you might see on a brush (such as an old-style shaving cream brush) hanging down off of it, almost as though it’s supposed to be there. A cotton swab cleaning didn’t remove it. Playing and recording work fine. I’ve been playing cassettes for about 45 years and I’ve never seen anything like this on the capstan. Any ideas?

I really like this deck. The owner of a local repair shop passed away; it’s a deck that I asked him about a few times but he never seemed ready to sell it. The bias adjust seems to not be working, so I’d like to find a way to repair that if it actually needs repairing. The ORBiT test doesn’t seem to be responding the way it supposed to, either— The counter doesn’t always convert to the meter, and when it does, the bias adjust appears to have no effect. Any insights and/or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!

That head (and the whole area) really needs to be cleaned. Also, it looks like the head is worn, although the photo isn't exceptionally clear. If the center of the head looks like it's indented, it's definitely worn and will never record or play as well as it should.

New head-

Worn heads-

 

[FormerVermonter]

That head (and the whole area) really needs to be cleaned. Also, it looks like the head is worn, although the photo isn't exceptionally clear. If the center of the head looks like it's indented, it's definitely worn and will never record or play as well as it should.

New head-

View attachment 59461

Worn heads-

View attachment 59462

Thank you for that; much appreciated.

If anyone has experience with this model’s ORBiT tester not working properly and then getting it to work, I’d be interested in knowing about that.

I need to get some deoxit on the record-level pot, too.

 

[highfigh]

Thank you for that; much appreciated.

If anyone has experience with this model’s ORBiT tester not working properly and then getting it to work, I’d be interested in knowing about that.

I need to get some deoxit on the record-level pot, too.

If the heads are damaged, worn or dirty, ORBiT can't help you and it won't work properly.

 

[3db]

Measured to the same standards as Nak.

That tells me absolutely nothing- I never worked for a Mak dealer, so I never bothered to see how they rated their machines, but I did see one of theirs crap the bed during a Sony Tape Deck Clinic at our store- it had a list price of roughly $800 at a time when that was more likely to buy an open reel machine.

So, could you just answer the question?

EDIT- Here's the manual and the link shows that the frequency response is rated at -20dB, because it's far better at that level. At -0dB, the heads and tape saturation don't allow great high frequency response, or headroom. -20dB is the standard testing level- if a manufacturer wants to test at -0dB, it's up to them.

Specifications; Optional Accessories - Nakamichi Dragon Owner's Manual [Page 16]

Nakamichi Dragon Manual Online: specifications, Optional Accessories.

www.manualslib.com

Oops, forgot to include -20db as I was in a hurry to get out for my walk. All decks are rated at that standard.

 

[TLS Guy]

That tells me absolutely nothing- I never worked for a Mak dealer, so I never bothered to see how they rated their machines, but I did see one of theirs crap the bed during a Sony Tape Deck Clinic at our store- it had a list price of roughly $800 at a time when that was more likely to buy an open reel machine.

So, could you just answer the question?

EDIT- Here's the manual and the link shows that the frequency response is rated at -20dB, because it's far better at that level. At -0dB, the heads and tape saturation don't allow great high frequency response, or headroom. -20dB is the standard testing level- if a manufacturer wants to test at -0dB, it's up to them.

Specifications; Optional Accessories - Nakamichi Dragon Owner's Manual [Page 16]

Nakamichi Dragon Manual Online: specifications, Optional Accessories.

www.manualslib.com

You can only measure the FR of a reel to reel machine at 0 db. running at 15 ips or higher. Everything else is -20db because of tape saturation. That is why you never make a professional tape recording at less the 15 ips. So yes, that means only good machines running at 15 ips or higher have an FR out to 20 KHz at 0 db. modulation.

In addition the tapes to make the FR are produced and certified by the National Magnetic Reference Laboratory. They make the reference tapes, which cost a fortune. Only the 30 ips. and 15 ips. tapes are recorded at 0 reference db. ALL the rest are -20 db. I still have mine.