Sigberg Audio MANTA dual cardioid active speaker development thread

[Sigberg Audio]

The market for high end expensive accurate speakers has always been from the classical music fraternity, and I suspect always will be. That part of the market has been the driver for accurate audio from the inception of Hi-Fi.

There are lots of people out there with high end gear who listen to lots of different genres. We actually deliberately point out that our speakers are NOT just for the "hifi aficionado" who only listen to select recordings.

Our speakers are made to sound good across genres including rock and popular / modern music, so obviously we will also listen to that while developing them. And no, listening purely to classical music will not guarantee that they'll work well on anything. As you point out there are plenty of high end speakers catering to the classical music fraternity, so I think there will be room for something else.

 

[TLS Guy]

There are lots of people out there with high end gear who listen to lots of different genres. We actually deliberately point out that our speakers are NOT just for the "hifi aficionado" who only listen to select recordings.

Our speakers are made to sound good across genres including rock and popular / modern music, so obviously we will also listen to that while developing them. And no, listening purely to classical music will not guarantee that they'll work well on anything. As you point out there are plenty of high end speakers catering to the classical music fraternity, so I think there will be room for something else.

You have talked about making a dubious frequency response aberration for one genre of music. I think the designers duty is to make as transparent and natural speaker as possible, and one that does not interact adversely with its environment, and that means the room. In my view that is how you make a speaker genre neutral. Then it is up to the end user to alter the response if he wants.

Now I realize your speakers are not passive, where your plan would be a serious error. I understand that with active speakers you can build a number of responses.
So as long as the speakers can have the responses changed at the flick of a button, and get back to a neutral response, I suppose there is no harm done.
However I do have a fundamental intellectual problem of creating purposely aberrant responses.

Lastly I'm not sure it is necessary. Engineers do come here to check mixes and master now and again, and that includes rock, that for the most part I have an antipathy towards. Anyhow these engineers seem very happy with the sound of this room. I make no special FR accommodations for them. They may make changes to the master. However I maintain, that for recording and mastering a studio speaker system should give you the unvarnished truth. I have never really been comfortable with using loudspeakers as tone controls.

I suspect we will continue to have a difference of opinion about this. We are now at a point where my mentors of years ago, could not have imagined what we are now able to achieve. I have just received my first BD audio only Atmos disc, miked as an atmos recording. It is astonishing, and imposes the acoustic of the cathedral venue on the room in remarkable fashion. It is no longer just a window into the original space. I guess I have trouble with the idea of willfully spoiling the cake. Especially now that the "BBC Smiley" is to all intent and purposes out of favor.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

@TLS Guy The speakers are voiced to give the best and most natural sounding in-room response possible across a wide set of genres. A perfectly flat anechoic response is not necessarily the best way to achieve that with all speaker designs.

James here at Audioholics tested the SBS.1, and to quote the review he thought they sounded absolutely terrific. When questioned during the video live chat about the apparent deviations in frequency response (specifically the slight emphasis in the upper bass / lower midrange) he stated that he did not notice this while listening to the speaker. The fact of the matter is that a flat response in this range would have sounded too thin in almost all rooms.

After ASR started with their measurement bonanza there seem to be an increasing belief that designing a speaker is simply about creating a flat on-axis response and you have a perfect speaker. If only it was that simple.

Let me also point out that even WITH the deliberate deviations from a flat on-axis response, the SBS.1 are +/-2.25dB from 90-20,000hz. I don't expect the Manta to be any less precise.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy The speakers are voiced to give the best and most natural sounding in-room response possible across a wide set of genres. A perfectly flat anechoic response is not necessarily the best way to achieve that with all speaker designs.

James here at Audioholics tested the SBS.1, and to quote the review he thought they sounded absolutely terrific. When questioned during the video live chat about the apparent deviations in frequency response (specifically the slight emphasis in the upper bass / lower midrange) he stated that he did not notice this while listening to the speaker. The fact of the matter is that a flat response in this range would have sounded too thin in almost all rooms.

After ASR started with their measurement bonanza there seem to be an increasing belief that designing a speaker is simply about creating a flat on-axis response and you have a perfect speaker. If only it was that simple.

Let me also point out that even WITH the deliberate deviations from a flat on-axis response, the SBS.1 are +/-2.25dB from 90-20,000hz. I don't expect the Manta to be any less precise.

I would say for a speaker +/-2.25db is a very good response for a speaker. However the premise of this post was to Eq. a speaker's response for a particular genre of music, in this instance rock music. That is what I have an issue with. That is not a good premise from which to design a speaker. However my experience is that you do need a pretty flat axial response at 1 to 2 meters, and an off axis response that closely mirrors the axial response until the inevitable HF roll off. What happens to the HF roll off after that is room dependent. However if the above precepts are met, then the HF roll off will be an even decay towards the top end, without lumps and bumps, that a miss match between axis and off axis response will cause. I have done this long enough to know that statement is correct.

I think the only thing that divides us is the concept of designing in an FR based on musical genre. That I will vigorously claim is bad starting precept.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I would say for a speaker +/-2.25db is a very good response for a speaker. However the premise of this post was to Eq. a speaker's response for a particular genre of music, in this instance rock music. That is what I have an issue with. That is not a good premise from which to design a speaker.
I think the only thing that divides us is the concept of designing in an FR based on musical genre. That I will vigorously claim is bad starting precept.

That wasn't really the premise of the post. I guess it could have been clearer. I wrote that there had been a discussion about what characteristics made a speaker work well for rock, and shared the findings.

Then I wrote that we had spent time to have our speakers work well on rock. This does not mean that is all we have been doing, or that we had done so at the expense of everything else. As I have stated several times, our goal is for our speakers to work well across all genres of music. It brings to reason that we have not EQed them exclusively for one particular genre of music, as that would be the complete opposite.

The reason I brought up rock specifically, is because it is a genre speakers often do not master, and as a consequence many people are looking for speakers that do that genre well.

I said that for rock, it would be good with a balanced top end:
The current Manta tune is basically +/-1dB from 400hz and up.
This is obviously favorable for other genres as well.

I said that for some tunes, a slight dip between 2-4khz could be favorable for some recordings:
The current Manta tune is ~1dB down in the 2-3,5khz area.
This is less than unintentional crossover dips in many speakers. Based on my extensive testing this works well across genres. It is just enough to take unwanted edge and harshness off recordings where this is present (rock or anything else), without diminishing clarity of others.

I said it would be good with a slight focus on the upper bass / lower midrange:
The current Manta tune has an intentional lift in this area anechocially, which translates to a balanced in-room response that gives a full, natural sounding midbass, as opposed to many speakers that are lacklustre in this important area. This works well for both rock and other genres.

I said that it would be good with plenty of capacity across the frequency range:
The Manta does 96dB@1m with less than 0,5% THD across the board.


A commercial speaker will always be a set of compromises, and as any other manufacturer (one would hope) I make deliberate choices in this regard. That being said, I think future owners will find that the Manta is less of a compromise than most (bar the requirement of a subwoofer of course). The best possible in-room sound with a broad range of genres (not just "hifi music", and not just classical) will always be my top priority.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

New stands have arrived, this is likely the final design. Similar retro style as the first one, but with an "invisible" upper base that the speaker is resting on, so there's no visible edge below the wooden base.

In person it has a very similar feeling as the previous prototype, which I think is a good thing.

 

[TLS Guy]

New stands have arrived, this is likely the final design. Similar retro style as the first one, but with an "invisible" upper base that the speaker is resting on, so there's no visible edge below the wooden base.

In person it has a very similar feeling as the previous prototype, which I think is a good thing.

That looks very good indeed. There is nothing wrong with the look of that.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Is "brutally beautiful" an expression? That's at least the words that fall into my head in front of this system, and that goes for both the visuals and the sound.

Coming in 2023!

 

[lovinthehd]

Is "brutally beautiful" an expression? That's at least the words that fall into my head in front of this system, and that goes for both the visuals and the sound.

Coming in 2023!

View attachment 58672

They definitely look "serious"

 

[Sigberg Audio]

New cabinets (preproduction units) left England today, so I'll have them towards the end of next week probably! Since we're coming up on Christmas pretty fast now, I'm not sure when they'll be assembled and tested. Also hopefully looking at a session in the Seas anechoic chamber early next year.

 

[TLS Guy]

New cabinets (preproduction units) left England today, so I'll have them towards the end of next week probably! Since we're coming up on Christmas pretty fast now, I'm not sure when they'll be assembled and tested. Also hopefully looking at a session in the Seas anechoic chamber early next year.

View attachment 59053

It sounds as if you are getting close to market. Exciting times!

 

[Sigberg Audio]

The preproduction enclosures have arrived. Here's a few quick shots straight off the pallet, not dusted, and the stand isn't the proper one, just had to put it on something. Hard to tell from the picture, but the grille actually fits very well too, made the speaker feel even more retro - suddenly it felt like something from the 60s or 70s.

More to come after assembly!

 

[ryanosaur]

@Sigberg Audio
D@mn, Thorbjørn. You are not helping me not want these.

Which is to say... Loking good!

 

[Sigberg Audio]

A couple of quick shots from assembly of the first speaker and some initial testing

Fun detail: The ports in the baffle now have the same depth as the ones on the side. For those who noticed, in the previous version the holes in the baffle were quite deep due to the double baffle thickness. On this version the baffle is still double in the lower chamber (for the 12" driver), but not on the upper. Result: Ports now look exactly the same both on the side and on the baffle.

 

[highfigh]

New cabinets (preproduction units) left England today, so I'll have them towards the end of next week probably! Since we're coming up on Christmas pretty fast now, I'm not sure when they'll be assembled and tested. Also hopefully looking at a session in the Seas anechoic chamber early next year.

View attachment 59053

Have you made prototypes with corners/edges that have a larger radius?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Have you made prototypes with corners/edges that have a larger radius?

The previous prototype had somewhat larger radius than the latest one (in the previous post), which is pretty much a straight edge.

Here's the previous one, as you can see on the edge between the baffle and the top, it's more rounded.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Just a quick picture from a listening session with the new preproduction units

 

[TLS Guy]

Just a quick picture from a listening session with the new preproduction units

View attachment 59341

It looks very impressive to chaps like us. I suspect the double X chromosome brigade, especially of the interior design fraternity, might have a different view. That is the rub of all this. Honestly large numbers if people are going to enjoy this technology, then we are going to have to develop a concerted plan of action.

A picture like that gives people like you and me a testosterone rush. Unfortunately we are the minority. So truly elegant design needs to move way up the priority list. However we don't need the sort of silly design nonsense promulgated by B & O in years past.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

It looks very impressive to chaps like us. I suspect the double X chromosome brigade, especially of the interior design fraternity, might have a different view. That is the rub of all this. Honestly large numbers if people are going to enjoy this technology, then we are going to have to develop a concerted plan of action.

A picture like that gives people like you and me a testosterone rush. Unfortunately we are the minority. So truly elegant design needs to move way up the priority list. However we don't need the sort of silly design nonsense promulgated by B & O in years past.

Yes, I mostly agree. Luckily The Manta is intentionally "loud" when it comes to the design and style exactly to grab attention from people like us, in order to build awareness of the brand in audiophile circles. You may love it or hate it, but you are less likely to ignore it than one perhaps would the SBS.1, which is significantly more neutral visually.

That being said retro is in style at least in Europe, and you may tone it down significantly by keeping the grille on when there's "normal" people around.

 

[MrBoat]

The problem with neutral and AI designed speakers is that they are too clean to be able to translate the 'intentional' distortions of electric music. Eddie Van Halen dubbed it the "brown sound." There are no other genres that aim for that vibe, or use the amount of pedals and effects in which to inflict it. I keep thinking. . .wtf is missing. . .part of the air of this stage is missing entirely. So much so, that it tends to bring attention to the actual 'sterility' of the speaker, comparatively, instead.

Unless a designer has frequented something along the lines of an AC/DC or Ozzy Osborne (with Randy Rhoads), Nugent, ELP. . . just can't possibly know what rock and pop is supposed to vibe like, or an acceptable emulation of it after the fact. It's as particular of a quality as anything else worthy of experiencing. It drove all of us to buy the biggest honking stereos that could be had in mass and kept us involved until. . .now.

I have neutral speakers. It's hard to get away from it. How are you going to tell a computer to design a bad speaker? Who is willing to take the flack for stepping out of this rather new, unaccountable box? "Speaker measures perfectly flat, so it must be your sucky room. Sorry bout your luck." Is anyone really surprised when a new design measures acceptably flat? *yawn*