Why is it so hard to find a integrated amp with the 3 things I want ?

[telemike]

I appreciate people helping me but the Denon DRA-800H or the like won't be even close to audiophile quality. I'll admit they that I'm new to this stuff but I've been researching for a couple of months. I've read often that AVR's for two channel setup is good but not great. Now if you guys say that it's almost just as good then, I'll won't bother any more and just get a decent AVR then.

I really like the Rotel A14 MKII but it doesn't have WI-FI. Can someone tell me how are people who are people semi-serious about quality audio how are they streaming it to units like the Rotel A14 MKII ($1600) for example ? Without using a wire and USB connection, I would be forced to use the Bluetooth is that how folks stream to units like the Rotel A14 MKII with their android phone cause that's what I have as a phone.

I forgot to mention the Rotel does have wireless aptX would that be give me Cd-quality according to what I've read. Is that people are using then and should it be good enough though ?

Buy a Sub $100 WiiM Mini to stream to the amp via Optical

 

[PENG]

This is definitely a sidetrack, so pardon the interruption.

I did say that THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk, etc., have been measured for many years. And we've been talking about them for many years.

And SINAD is the inverse (alternate term) for THD+N. But WHY use it in the first place when it's just an ALTERNATE term? Does it ADD any more useful information?

Why not just continue using THD+N since it's been used since FOREVER?

With that out of the way and back to the fact that we've been talking about THD+N for many years now, it seems like THD+N has always been good to discuss, but not OVEREMPHASIZED over Power Output or other specs. Back then, THD+N was just "one of the guys", sort to speak.

With all these THD+N numbers being inaudible, why make such a big fuss over them?

You are right, there is no reason to use that term, but could be one, if you use the log scale. We all know why in audio it is better to use log (the natural log) scale.

In communication though, that's where the term would be used, but for reasons, you would have to ask @gene who was a communication (telecom..) engineer, for me I only study communication theory in U, never practice in that discipline though I know I would have enjoyed it more, than in the world of power electronics, power T&M, and control that I spent my whole career on.

By definition, THD+N could have been expressed as NADIS, that is noise and distortion/signal, and either way, the number in dB would obviously be negative because log(1/X) = - log(X)

I believe the I, is actually evolved from the "/" sign that is the division sign,

If the ratio is 1/100, that is 1% then THD+N = 20*log(1/100) = -40 dB

SINAD, will of course = +40 dB but the + sign is not used, as it is implied.

So if you prefer a positive number, you are saying the signal is 40 dB stronger than the distortions + noise, or if you prefer a negative number then you are saying the magnitude of the distortions + noise is 40 dB lower than the signal.

I prefer THD+N, but in dB. It seems that DAC manufacturers typically use THD+N as well. I have seen it expressed in SINAD only in AKM's ADC, such as the one used in D+M's and Yamaha's:
Example, the AK5358
S/(N+D): 92dB
Note they use the "/" sign instead of the "I", to me that should have been the right way.

I prefer THD+N expressed as dB because it is easier to relate it's practical meaning, as we know 0 dB, or -100 dB from the fundamental of a signal that is at 100 dB is probably inaudible, or barely perceivable to most people so if the total harmonic components plus noise is at -100 dB that is 100 dB below a 100 dB signal, then I won't be able to hear it even during the quietest passage of music such as in between tracks. If it is in %, such as 1%, then it is harder to imagine in terms of audibility without converting it to dB.

 

[highfigh]

With all these THD+N numbers being inaudible, why make such a big fuss over them?

We need something on a constant basis, so the manufacturers don't 'frog' us by secretly colluding to produce worse goods, with worse performance. We already have testing done at 1KHz, rather than full audio bandwidth- where would they stop in their efforts to save money?

 

[Trell]

We need something on a constant basis, so the manufacturers don't 'frog' us by secretly colluding to produce worse goods, with worse performance. We already have testing done at 1KHz, rather than full audio bandwidth- where would they stop in their efforts to save money?

From his posts here and in other threads it's clear he does not care about that at all.

 

[highfigh]

That might be one point of debate - saying that lower THD+N = better engineering.

But what does better engineering correlate with? Better sound quality? Better reliability?

There are $500 AVR's from 20-30 years ago that seem to be more reliable than many newer $2K AVRs that have much lower THD+N measurements.

I think the more recent failures in AVRs are often in areas where the devices aren't able to be tested for all causes, like power surges from inside of a building vs lightning. I don't think an AVR would appreciate having a big old vacuum cleaner turned on when it's plugged into an outlet on the same circuit but an old receiver that doesn't have op-amps, microprocessors and other sensitive devices would be fine.

WRT better engineering, I'm sure some engineers could detect better sound quality, but they have to work in the objective world- as we often write, "If it can't be measured, it's not going to be heard" and with all of the disagreements in AV, I think manufacturers would want to close shop if they had to add "Must have golden ears" to the job qualifications. I know EEs and people who work with audio who can hear subtle differences in sound quality, but some aren't what I would consider 'qualified' to make a decision about whether one product is better than others.

Sales drives everything now and that's great, for manufacturers, but terrible for consumers. Electronics is now a cash cow but just about everything was repairable over a period of decades, in the past. It can be very difficult to find service parts for a 3 year old TV and that's ridiculous- people have come to accept "Not Serviceable" or 'Uneconomical to repair" and manufacturers don't train service techs in local shops anymore or provide the reams of paper service manuals or as they would now, digital versions.

Having worked in the sales/installation/service end of consumer AV for a long time, I have seen this transition from "Sure, we can fix it" to "That has to be sent to one of the regional service centers" and I can say one thing- customers DO NOT like to hear that. Best Buy can repair some things, but not everything and when it's out of warranty, they're only going to recommend replacement, even though it could be repaired if parts were available.

Electronics could be made 'bulletproof', but the end cost would be very high. The saying "An Elephant is defined as 'a Mouse, built to military specifications' " comes to mind.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We need something on a constant basis, so the manufacturers don't 'frog' us by secretly colluding to produce worse goods, with worse performance. We already have testing done at 1KHz, rather than full audio bandwidth- where would they stop in their efforts to save money?

Of course, we want measurements on every product. We want this 30 years ago and it's the same way now.

So I'm not talking about the measurements. We want a lot of measurements.

What I mean is, why make a fuss if THD+N went from 0.001% to 0.003%?

But I guess we could debate on why it went from 0.001% to 0.003%. Just for fun and giggle.

Bottom line: I appreciate all the measurements from ASR and AH. The more the merrier!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

From his posts here and in other threads it's clear he does not care about that at all.

@highfigh, @PENG and I were just having fun chit-chatting. Not much else going on around here.

Fact is, I'm not against ASR measurements at all. Sometimes I can be annoying playing devil's advocate. So I'll try to stop that.

Okay, the NEW me: all AVR/AVP should strive for SINAD of ~ 90dB or THD of 0.003% or better. And everybody wants a external Amp! And if possible, get an AVP + Amp like @TLS Guy.

 

[highfigh]

Of course, we want measurements on every product. We want this 30 years ago and it's the same way now.

So I'm not talking about the measurements. We want a lot of measurements.

What I mean is, why make a fuss if THD+N went from 0.001% to 0.003%?

But I guess we could debate on why it went from 0.001% to 0.003%. Just for fun and giggle.

Bottom line: I appreciate all the measurements from ASR and AH. The more the merrier!

Is anyone really making a fuss about the difference between .001 and .003%? Why?

I think it improved because of a hospital grade outlet.

Prove me wrong.

 

[ahender]

It was a lot harder that I thought to get everything I wanted with WI-FI, HDMI for ARC or least optical and third thing I want is Tone controls like Treble & bass.

AudioLabs 6000a play (I like this unit a lot and the look, simple to use but it just doesn't have tone controls) $1600

Rotel A12 MKII or the next higher up the A14 MKII and then the RA-1572 MKII (all good units but are all lacking WI-FI but has Bluetooth, but BT sucks no thanks. How am I suppose to stream music to this if I don't want to use BT ? At these prices it seems mind blogging to me has no WI-FI.

Cambridge Audio CXA81 (once again no WI-FI)

Marantz model 40n (has everything but I might have to use the app Heos to use my Spotify ? I'm not crazy about Heos either.

I've also looked at what NAD and Emotiva has to offer and for what I'm looking for it's lacking even more.

Maybe someone has another suggestion at around $3000 or less.

Marantz PM7000N. $1295 new and a refurb can be had for $899. I’ve had mine for a year. Nice integrated amp with WiFi, tone controls, and optical. USB input using HEOS app also gives you easy access to music albums/files if you are into ripping CDs. Spotify Connect if you happen to use Spotify.

 

[Davvy]

Thanks for your input but I found what I needed.

 

[panteragstk]

Thanks for your input but I found what I needed.

May have missed it, but what'd you end up getting?

 

[Auditor55]

Good grief grandpa bullshit Paul

 

[Auditor55]

Making a fuss LOL, your good. I didn't think of mentioning it. But yeah $500 for towers would be a no no. A sub won't happen right now, I want to get everything else first.

You should be getting a sub as soon as you can. Bookshelves alone won't cut it.

 

[Davvy]

May have missed it, but what'd you end up getting?

I ended up getting the Onkyo RZ-50 and I like it, except for the feet. Instead of a thin piece of rubber on the bottom of the plastic feet like other avrs I've seen they put cork material. I really dislike it, just pushing the avr in my cabinet a couple of pieces of cork came off. I'll admit though my cabinet shelve has a rough texture more then normal, but still why cork. I could leave it alone but I won't cause I tend to have to move stuff often. I'll have to scrap off the cork and replace with some self adhesive rubber pads. What else can I do...do they sell replacement feet somewhere ?

 

[lovinthehd]

I ended up getting the Onkyo RZ-50 and I like it, except for the feet. Instead of a thin piece of rubber on the bottom of the plastic feet like other avrs I've seen they put cork material. I really dislike it, just pushing the avr in my cabinet a couple of pieces of cork came off. I'll admit though my cabinet shelve has a rough texture more then normal, but still why cork. I could leave it alone but I won't cause I tend to have to move stuff often. I'll have to scrap off the cork and replace with some self adhesive rubber pads. What else can I do...do they sell replacement feet somewhere ?

Never saw cork feet on any of my electronics....are the feet removable/replaceable? Maybe just put cabinet/furniture feet sliders underneath?

 

[Davvy]

Never saw cork feet on any of my electronics....are the feet removable/replaceable? Maybe just put cabinet/furniture feet sliders underneath?

Yeah I'm using the sliders right now but it looks like crap, yeah I'm not kidding you they used a little pad of corking under each plastic foot and it's starting to crumble off already. I don't know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna look for some kind of rubber adhesive at the store but I shouldn't have to do this because I'm gonna have to scrape the corking off.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah I'm using the sliders right now but it looks like crap, yeah I'm not kidding you they used a little pad of corking under each plastic foot and it's starting to crumble off already. I don't know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna look for some kind of rubber adhesive at the store but I shouldn't have to do this because I'm gonna have to scrape the corking off.

I'd just replace the feet if possible. Or sand down the shelf

 

[panteragstk]

Yeah I'm using the sliders right now but it looks like crap, yeah I'm not kidding you they used a little pad of corking under each plastic foot and it's starting to crumble off already. I don't know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna look for some kind of rubber adhesive at the store but I shouldn't have to do this because I'm gonna have to scrape the corking off.

Yeah, that's pretty dumb. You should be able to replace the crappy cork with something better. That's a really odd decision on their part.

 

[Davvy]

By the way how important it is to have your ear at the approximately height of between main woofer and the tweeter ?,,, cause I've heard this said a few times when watching video reviews. I bought some 28" stands a couple of weeks ago and pretty much it's right at my ear level like said. But I would prefer 24" height stands for various reasons. Would 4" shorter really make that much of a difference though let's also assume I have good soundstage and imaging speakers for the sake of this discussion.

 

[PENG]

By the way how important it is to have your ear at the approximately height of between main woofer and the tweeter ?,,, cause I've heard this said a few times when watching video reviews. I bought some 28" stands a couple of weeks ago and pretty much it's right at my ear level like said. But I would prefer 24" height stands for various reasons. Would 4" shorter really make that much of a difference though let's also assume I have good soundstage and imaging speakers for the sake of this discussion.

I think those are good general guidelines that you might have read or heard. In reality, "how much of a difference" would depend on a number of things. You can easily find out if you take the trust your ears approach, otherwise take some measurements with a good mic and REW (more work but probably more fun that way).