2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked

[lovinthehd]

No reason for Audyssey to do more work in the AVR space, as they apparently licenced/sold the patents to D&M - which seems to coincide with Audyssey's disappearance from Onkyo AVR's... and perhaps also the resulting purchase of Pioneer by Onkyo - giving them access to Pioneers deal with Dirac - interesting set of Dominos

But resting on their Audyssey Laurels (by D&M) has left the field open for Dirac... and obviously Audyssey themselves did not care too much, as it was no longer their baby.

Dirac has ongoing R&D efforts working in and in collaboration with university research - Audyssey started out like that, but stopped doing that circa 10 years ago - and that 10 year gap is starting to show.... and will show even more as Dirac moves forward with their newer SRC features.

I have an old Onkyo with Audyssey, and Onkyo cut them off not long after, before any of the changes at Audyssey AFAIK. Audyssey just went after another market afaik and leaving D&M (and McIntosh?) or licensing to D&M not sure of any details there....but makes sense. Dirac is definitely a leader at this time. Still, supposedly Trinnov has advantages. No experience with Dirac or Trinnov myself but would like to play with both. A future Denon avr that can handle both Audyssey and Dirac seems a good option, tho.

 

[dlaloum]

I have an old Onkyo with Audyssey, and Onkyo cut them off not long after, before any of the changes at Audyssey AFAIK. Audyssey just went after another market afaik and leaving D&M (and McIntosh?) or licensing to D&M not sure of any details there....but makes sense. Dirac is definitely a leader at this time. Still, supposedly Trinnov has advantages. No experience with Dirac or Trinnov myself but would like to play with both. A future Denon avr that can handle both Audyssey and Dirac seems a good option, tho.

Trinnov briefly went after the AVR marketplace with the Sherwood 10 years ago?

It was buggy, had loads of issue, but was apparently pretty good regardless.

After that they seem to have abandoned the mid market, and stuck to PC based hardware and the high end.

Given the average AVR now has substantially more power than they did when they tried their AVR port back then, I would have thought there would be an opportunity out there for Trinnov to give AVR's another try.... that would be a VERY interesting product - especially if it could come in at the X3800 pricebracket....

 

[lovinthehd]

Trinnov briefly went after the AVR marketplace with the Sherwood 10 years ago?

It was buggy, had loads of issue, but was apparently pretty good regardless.

After that they seem to have abandoned the mid market, and stuck to PC based hardware and the high end.

Given the average AVR now has substantially more power than they did when they tried their AVR port back then, I would have thought there would be an opportunity out there for Trinnov to give AVR's another try.... that would be a VERY interesting product - especially if it could come in at the X3800 pricebracket....

Yeah, almost bought one of those Sherwoods but the bugginess steered me away at the time then it simply wasn't an option at that level after both moved on and wasn't an option beyond that moment. I don't know that avrs have particularly improved on power supplies otoh....but depends how/what models are compared.

 

[DigitalDawn]

Any deals out there for the x3800 or is the $1.7k list price going to be as good as it gets?

Contact me.

 

[Dave F]

It looks like Denon reports their preamp outs to be 1.2 V rms. Audioholics reported a possible pre out V of 4V rms. Would this be a good pre-amp at 1.2V?


Adil
· 11 days ago
What is the pre-out / preamplifier output level 1, 2 or 4V RMS?
1answer

Answer this Question

1. Denon Response
   · 11 days ago
   
   Hi Adil,
   The AVR-X3800H's pre-amp out is 1.2V.
   
   

 

[lovinthehd]

It looks like Denon reports their preamp outs to be 1.2 V rms. Audioholics reported a possible pre out V of 4V rms. Would this be a good pre-amp at 1.2V?


Adil
· 11 days ago
What is the pre-out / preamplifier output level 1, 2 or 4V RMS?
1answer

Answer this Question

1. Denon Response
   · 11 days ago
   
   Hi Adil,
   The AVR-X3800H's pre-amp out is 1.2V.
   

This has been covered in several places, but pretty much all Denons quote a nominal 1.2V, but measure higher. Haven't seen a bench test on the new one but probably similar enough to the 3700 here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/

 

[Dave F]

This has been covered in several places, but pretty much all Denons quote a nominal 1.2V, but measure higher. Haven't seen a bench test on the new one but probably similar enough to the 3700 here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/

Thanks for the link and info, I was not aware of Denon's tendency to underrate their outputs. I look forward to someone testing the x3800h.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the link and info, I was not aware of Denon's tendency to underrate their outputs. I look forward to someone testing the x3800h.

They don't provide the background spec in any case....never had an issue with my 1.4V sensitivity amps....

 

[dlaloum]

This has been covered in several places, but pretty much all Denons quote a nominal 1.2V, but measure higher. Haven't seen a bench test on the new one but probably similar enough to the 3700 here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/

The X3700 measured 1.4v when power amps were in use, and close to 4V when they weren't (from memory)

 

[PENG]

The X3700 measured 1.4v when power amps were in use, and close to 4V when they weren't (from memory)

Not really true, at least not entirely true! That 1.4 V reference, assuming you got it from ASR, is just one point on Amir's SINAD (dB) vs Measured load (Vrms) graphs derived from the AP instrument.

Let's be clear that the 1.4V is not the maximum output even when the internet amps are used. I have repeated this point a many times. Unfortunately if Amir (ASR) says something, people would (understandably) repeat it, sometimes taken out of context, and that led to misconceptions on forums.

As experienced Audioholics, I think we should not contribute to spreading the 1.4 V presumed/false limit when it clearly is not. Amir never said it was the limit either, but he was awfully harsh in using the term "clips" on those graphs.

In general, people should not look at output at a single point on the output vs SINAD, or THD+N graphs, the same applies to both preamp and power amps.

Now let's look at the graphs, that unfortunately I also posted several times to help debunk the notion of the 1.4 V perceived limit:

Observations:
1) SINAD was about 100 dB (0.001% THD+N)
2) At 1.4 V, 77.5 dB (about 0.013% THD+N) at about 1.7 V
3) 2V it was about 76 dB or 0.016%.(about and 76)
4) If you extend the line to 4V, assuming the same slope, it would be about 65 dB, or 0.056%.

Note: 76 dB SINAD, the AVR-X3700H would be almost 1 full dB better than the AV7705 (two samples measured by Amir), and we all know the AV7705 is a so called separate, without any influence of the internal power amps that are not even there!! Also, there are many very happy owners of the AV7705 that they thought it sounded great to them so I highly doubt 75 to 77 dB SINAD at 2 V is an issue for most (there are always exceptions obviously) people.

@gene did a great job highlighting some of the key points in his review of the X3300W, people just have to read that article to have a better understanding.

I don't know how many times I have to link his article but here I am doing it again.

Denon AVR-X3300W A/V Receiver Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics
Note that the X3300W is a good example because it has the updated volume control chip and DAC chip that are the same as those used in the X3700H and other Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs, and it has no preamp mode nor any means to "disconnect" the internal power amps.

Denon AVR-X3300W Preamplifier Measurements

"...One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power. Yamaha please pay attention and step your game up particularly with your AV receivers in this price range that clip above 1.6Vrms. A preamp output of less than 2Vrms is unacceptable in my book..."

On that note, Gene, can you please say something about the term "clips" that is often used in reviews and measurements. For example, what is the basis you use? Would it be the point where SINAD starts to rise exponentially, or a hard number like 60 dB SINAD/i.e. -60 dB THD+N/0.1%, or both are used for your reference when you considered the clipping point? I understand for preamps, in order for them not to become the bottleneck, it may be appropriate to use a higher standard such that if 1% is used for power amps as the clipping point, then it may be good to use 0.1% or 0.05% for preamps, what's your opinion, based on practical real world applications?

 

[PENG]

It looks like Denon reports their preamp outs to be 1.2 V rms. Audioholics reported a possible pre out V of 4V rms. Would this be a good pre-amp at 1.2V?


Adil
· 11 days ago
What is the pre-out / preamplifier output level 1, 2 or 4V RMS?
1answer

Answer this Question

1. Denon Response
   · 11 days ago
   
   Hi Adil,
   The AVR-X3800H's pre-amp out is 1.2V.
   

Denon/Marantz first line customer reps typically give generic answers. Don't worry about the 1.2 V number, its not the maximum. Probably just a loosely defined nominal number based on 1.2 V output would push amps with 29 dB gain such as the AVR amps, to output about 140 W into 8 ohms.

 

[mtrot]

Not really true, at least not entirely true! That 1.4 V reference, assuming you got it from ASR, is just one point on Amir's SINAD (dB) vs Measured load (Vrms) graphs derived from the AP instrument.

Let's be clear that the 1.4V is not the maximum output even when the internet amps are used. I have repeated this point a many times. Unfortunately if Amir (ASR) says something, people would (understandably) repeat it, sometimes taken out of context, and that led to misconceptions on forums.

As experienced Audioholics, I think we should not contribute to spreading the 1.4 V presumed/false limit when it clearly is not. Amir never said it was the limit either, but he was awfully harsh in using the term "clips" on those graphs.

View attachment 58278

In general, people should not look at output at a single point on the output vs SINAD, or THD+N graphs, the same applies to both preamp and power amps.

Now let's look at the graphs, that unfortunately I also posted several times to help debunk the notion of the 1.4 V perceived limit:

Observations:
1) SINAD was about 100 dB (0.001% THD+N)
2) At 1.4 V, 77.5 dB (about 0.013% THD+N) at about 1.7 V
3) 2V it was about 76 dB or 0.016%.(about and 76)
4) If you extend the line to 4V, assuming the same slope, it would be about 65 dB, or 0.056%.

Note: 76 dB SINAD, the AVR-X3700H would be almost 1 full dB better than the AV7705 (two samples measured by Amir), and we all know the AV7705 is a so called separate, without any influence of the internal power amps that are not even there!! Also, there are many very happy owners of the AV7705 that they thought it sounded great to them so I highly doubt 75 to 77 dB SINAD at 2 V is an issue for most (there are always exceptions obviously) people.

@gene did a great job highlighting some of the key points in his review of the X3300W, people just have to read that article to have a better understanding.

I don't know how many times I have to link his article but here I am doing it again.

Denon AVR-X3300W A/V Receiver Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics
Note that the X3300W is a good example because it has the updated volume control chip and DAC chip that are the same as those used in the X3700H and other Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs, and it has no preamp mode nor any means to "disconnect" the internal power amps.



On that note, Gene, can you please say something about the term "clips" that is often used in reviews and measurements. For example, what is the basis you use? Would it be the point where SINAD starts to rise exponentially, or a hard number like 60 dB SINAD/i.e. -60 dB THD+N/0.1%, or both are used for your reference when you considered the clipping point? I understand for preamps, in order for them not to become the bottleneck, it may be appropriate to use a higher standard such that if 1% is used for power amps as the clipping point, then it may be good to use 0.1% or 0.05% for preamps, what's your opinion, based on practical real world applications?

Thanks, I just need 2.7Vrms for my power amplifier. I'm currently looking at getting a Denon 6500 or 6700, not sure if it's worth the ~$1,100 price difference to get a 6700, especially if the 6500 pre-out voltage and distortion figures are fine.

 

[PENG]

Thanks, I just need 2.7Vrms for my power amplifier. I'm currently looking at getting a Denon 6500 or 6700, not sure if it's worth the ~$1,100 price difference to get a 6700, especially if the 6500 pre-out voltage and distortion figures are fine.

In my opinion, a lot of people don't even need more than 1 V. I rarely listen to music or movie at higher than -15 so my AVR, or AVP will only need to output about 0.1 to 1 V (just an average range), with peaks to 1 V or a little higher.

For reference, by now we all know if you only need 1.4 - 1.5 V pre out voltage, you can expect SINAD would be between 96 to 102 dB, that's around 0.001% THD+N. I understood you said you need 2.7 Vrms for you power amplifier, but how did you come up with that number. If 2.7 V is the so called input sensitivity of the power amp then it does NOT mean you actually need 2.7 V. What if your power amp is rated 1,000 W or higher, do you actully need to push the amp to output 1,000 W or higher?

Obviously ymmv because it depends on you speaker's impedance, sensitivity, how loud you listen to, your seating distance, the gain and rated output of your power amp.

Again, just because you need 2.7 V for your power amp to output its rated power, it does not mean you actually need 2.7 V.

For example, let's assume your power amp has the following specs:

Gain: 26 dB
Rated output 350 w 8 ohms

In this case, 2.7 V pre out will drive this amp to output about 360 W 8 ohms, or 720 W 4 ohms.

Now if for your speakers, distance, and listening habits you only need 0.5 W average, 32 W peak based on 8 ohm impedance, then you will need just 0.8 V pre out voltage and even lower, such as 0.566 V if you amp's gain is the more typical 29 dB instead of the relatively low 26 dB.

So take a look of the following table and find your answer.

Red: Power in W
Blue: Power amp gain in dB
Black: Pre out voltage in Vrms required for the targeted output power into 8 ohms

Note: Double the output power figure for 4 ohm loads.

 

[mtrot]

In my opinion, a lot of people don't even need more than 1 V. I rarely listen to music or movie at higher than -15 so my AVR, or AVP will only need to output about 0.1 to 1 V, less than 0.05 V, with peaks to 1 V at the most.

For reference, by now we all know if you only need 1.4 - 1.5 V pre out voltage, you can expect SINAD would be between 96 to 102 dB, that's around 0.001% THD+N. I understood you said you need 2.7 Vrms for you power amplifier, but how did you come up with that number. If 2.7 V is the so called input sensitivity of the power amp then it does NOT mean you actually need 2.7 V. What if your power amp is rated 1,000 W or higher, do you actully need to push the amp to output 1,000 W or higher?

Obviously ymmv because it depends on you speaker's impedance, sensitivity, how loud you listen to, your seating distance, the gain and rated output of your power amp.

Again, just because you need 2.7 V for your power amp to output its rated power, it does not mean you actually need 2.7 V.

For example, let's assume your power amp has the following specs:

Gain: 26 dB
Rated output 350 w 8 ohms

In this case, 2.7 V pre out will drive this amp to output about 360 W 8 ohms, or 720 W 4 ohms.

Now if for your speakers, distance, and listening habits you only need 0.5 W average, 32 W peak based on 8 ohm impedance, then you will need just 0.8 V pre out voltage and even lower, such as 0.566 V if you amp's gain is the more typical 29 dB instead of the relatively low 26 dB.

So take a look of the following table and find your answer.

Red: Power in W
Blue: Power amp gain in dB
Black: Pre out voltage in Vrms required for the targeted output power into 8 ohms

Note: Double the output power figure for 4 ohm loads.

View attachment 58282

Great guess! Gain for my amp is said to be 26.4dB. The amp's specs say input sensitivity is 2.71 Vrms. The amp has only XLR inputs on it, no rca's. So, I have to use adapters on the rca cables that connect my pre-amp to the power amp. The pre-amp has home theater bypass.

 

[lovinthehd]

@PENG (and @gene ) I think this is definitely a sticky worthy subject....it comes up often. I could rearrange Peng's words or maybe it should just become an AH article?

 

[Verdinut]

We have to keep in mind that amplifier power output does not necessarily double for a 4 ohm load compared to the 8 ohm load. It could be less than double as it depends on the capacity of the power supply, and this is the situation with most AV receivers if not all.

 

[dlaloum]

Not really true, at least not entirely true! That 1.4 V reference, assuming you got it from ASR, is just one point on Amir's SINAD (dB) vs Measured load (Vrms) graphs derived from the AP instrument.

Let's be clear that the 1.4V is not the maximum output even when the internet amps are used. I have repeated this point a many times. Unfortunately if Amir (ASR) says something, people would (understandably) repeat it, sometimes taken out of context, and that led to misconceptions on forums.

As experienced Audioholics, I think we should not contribute to spreading the 1.4 V presumed/false limit when it clearly is not. Amir never said it was the limit either, but he was awfully harsh in using the term "clips" on those graphs.

View attachment 58278

In general, people should not look at output at a single point on the output vs SINAD, or THD+N graphs, the same applies to both preamp and power amps.

Now let's look at the graphs, that unfortunately I also posted several times to help debunk the notion of the 1.4 V perceived limit:

Observations:
1) SINAD was about 100 dB (0.001% THD+N)
2) At 1.4 V, 77.5 dB (about 0.013% THD+N) at about 1.7 V
3) 2V it was about 76 dB or 0.016%.(about and 76)
4) If you extend the line to 4V, assuming the same slope, it would be about 65 dB, or 0.056%.

Note: 76 dB SINAD, the AVR-X3700H would be almost 1 full dB better than the AV7705 (two samples measured by Amir), and we all know the AV7705 is a so called separate, without any influence of the internal power amps that are not even there!! Also, there are many very happy owners of the AV7705 that they thought it sounded great to them so I highly doubt 75 to 77 dB SINAD at 2 V is an issue for most (there are always exceptions obviously) people.

@gene did a great job highlighting some of the key points in his review of the X3300W, people just have to read that article to have a better understanding.

I don't know how many times I have to link his article but here I am doing it again.

Denon AVR-X3300W A/V Receiver Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics
Note that the X3300W is a good example because it has the updated volume control chip and DAC chip that are the same as those used in the X3700H and other Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs, and it has no preamp mode nor any means to "disconnect" the internal power amps.



On that note, Gene, can you please say something about the term "clips" that is often used in reviews and measurements. For example, what is the basis you use? Would it be the point where SINAD starts to rise exponentially, or a hard number like 60 dB SINAD/i.e. -60 dB THD+N/0.1%, or both are used for your reference when you considered the clipping point? I understand for preamps, in order for them not to become the bottleneck, it may be appropriate to use a higher standard such that if 1% is used for power amps as the clipping point, then it may be good to use 0.1% or 0.05% for preamps, what's your opinion, based on practical real world applications?

Thank you - yes I was being lazy... I was referring to Amir's review on ASR, by memory.

The 1.4V being the point at which performance takes a dramatic turn for the worse... Looking at those charts, I would be hesitant to depend on anything beyong 1.4V - as there may be other issues there (based on the dramatic downturn)...

In any case - I have yet to encounter a power amp in my personal experience (ie: in my ownership, or in my hands to try out) - that wouldn't provide its max output at 1.4V or below - so I don't consider it a major issue... just a point of interest, and an indication as to how that component is set up.

 

[dlaloum]

We have to keep in mind that amplifier power output does not necessarily double for a 4 ohm load compared to the 8 ohm load. It could be less than double as it depends on the capacity of the power supply, and this is the situation with most AV receivers if not all.

The Crown XLS series put out roughly 1.7 x the 8ohm power into 4 ohm, and then a further 1.5x the 4 ohm power into 2 ohm. (ratios 1/1/5/2.7)

They work brilliantly with "difficult" speakers (ie: those with low impedances)

There loads of amps out there that have a profile that looks like 1/1.5/0.7 (for 8/4/2 ohm power in W) - many more that have 1/1.5/self protect and in previous generations, quite a few power amps would "release the magic smoke" when tried on low impedance speakers.

It can be argued, that getting close to the magical 1/2/4 ratios are the sign of a high fidelity, high quality amplifier - it approaches the "ideal" wire with gain amplifier principle.

There are very few amps out there at an affordable/budget price that can approach these capabilities (even from the Crown stable, the XLS series are one of the few rated for 2 ohm).

AV Receivers - with some notable flagship model exceptions - do an awfull job with low impedance speakers... but can be excellent pre-pros, when feeding into a suitable amp.

I would suggest as a rule of thumg -
1) work out what the "worst" impedance your speaker has is on a Frequency/impedance chart... round down to the nearest even number... (2/4/6/8) -
2) if the result is 6 or higher - move on, your AVR will do fine , if the result is 4 ohm or less then
3) find your amps power rating at that worst case impedance... and calculate back to the 8ohm equivalent to determine whether it meets your SPL requirements for your setup

eg: for my Quad 606, Rated 135W@8omh but 90W @ 2ohm is a rough equivalent for 45W @ 4ohm and 22.5W @8ohm.... my 86db/wm speakers, stereo pair, listened to at just a touch past 2m... produce 83db @ 1W - at the MLP - and with 16W they can produce 95db SPL...
My normal listening levels are circa 72db... and allowing for peaks of up to 20db takes me to 92db.... I know the amps have a bit of headroom beyond that (as the calculation shows 22.5db) - and the audible results are good.

Yep my Quad's do sound good with my speakers -although at a worst case of 1.6 ohm, they are actually pressed harder than the above calculation indicates - the Crown XLS I have can put out 1200W@ 2ohm... it may well be bias... but they do sound marginally better than the Quads with my current speakers... I think... I may be imagining it...

My 100W Integra DRX 3.4, sounds very poor driving the same speakers directly - sounds great driving the above power amps....I have no specs/measurements for its 2 ohm capabilities... but it clearly is NOT happy driving these speakers.

Your personal situation may differ (obviously) - but the same process can be used to work out whether a given level of available power will be sufficient for a given room setup - the hardest bit of the process, is finding the impedance/frequency chart for the speaker, and the impedance/power chart (or relevant impedance/power rating) for the amp.

It can be surprising finding out how LITTLE power you need... it often isn't heaps of power that is needed, but substantial current drive to power the speakers to the required levels.

 

[PENG]

We have to keep in mind that amplifier power output does not necessarily double for a 4 ohm load compared to the 8 ohm load. It could be less than double as it depends on the capacity of the power supply, and this is the situation with most AV receivers if not all.

Fully agreed, in fact in most if not all cases, power output does not double for a 4 ohm load. The table I showed is for pre out requirements only. For example, it shows 2 V can drive a power amp with 29 dB gain to output 400 W into 8 ohms and double to 800 W if the power amp is capable of doing it.

In other words, if it doesn't double into a 4-ohm load, it is not the preamp's problem but the power amp's. You can increase the pre out to say 3 V and that may cause the power amp to output 800 W but then the power amp would be clipping badly and may even trigger the protective system to shut it down, blow a fuse or tripped a breaker, or worse, the amp may blow up in smoke. I hope this is clear.

 

[PENG]

Thank you - yes I was being lazy... I was referring to Amir's review on ASR, by memory.

The 1.4V being the point at which performance takes a dramatic turn for the worse... Looking at those charts, I would be hesitant to depend on anything beyong 1.4V - as there may be other issues there (based on the dramatic downturn)...

We have had this conversation before but I think some people (base on many posts I have seen here and on ASR) are misguided by those graph. Take a carefully look and you will see that the scale of the graph's axis is playing trick too.

For example, if the Y-axis starts from 0 dB, the slope would have been much gentler, and if the X-axis starts from 0 V, the slope would be gentler still.

Now take a look of the very well reviewed AVM70, users seem to be very happy and said it sounded great.

See that at below 1 W (green curve, with vol=0, and the blue curve with vol=-4.5, SINAD dropped from 100 dB (the optimal point) to 88 dB at 0.6 V where the AVR-X3700H would still be at about 92.5 dB. That has little to do with the topic we have been on, but just a by the way kind of point. We both know many posters have in the past emphasized the importance of good performance at the lower output level, such as below 0.5 V for preamps and below 1 W for power amps, because that's the level amps operate for most users who cannot stand reference level. I don't fully agree with that sentiment, but I agree it is an important point to consider.

For someone like me who doesn't need to push pass 0.5 V very often, the much cheaper X3700H AVR will in fact have a cleaner preamp signal than the very well regarded Anthem AVM70! That's one of the point I tried to make that, it is much more useful, even critical in some cases, to compare the well scaled SINAD vs output voltage, than a SINAD vs a single point output voltage.

In any case - I have yet to encounter a power amp in my personal experience (ie: in my ownership, or in my hands to try out) - that wouldn't provide its max output at 1.4V or below - so I don't consider it a major issue... just a point of interest, and an indication as to how that component is set up.

Exactly, and same here as stated above. I am glad we agree on this one. The high pre out voltage thing, while important for people to realize, could sometimes make people worry for no reasons too.

Regardless, I do appreciate Gene who highlighted the importance to have 2 V clean signal on hand, but those who own speakers with sensitivity in the high 80's to 90s, sitting less than 3 meters from their farthest speakers and/or listen to 6 dB or more below reference level probably don't need more than 1 V if their power amps have gains of 29 dB or higher and iirc, Gene mentioned that too more than once.

There are others who have speakers with sensitivity in the low to mid 80's, power amp with gains below 28 dB to say 23 dB to 26 dB such as the AHB2 and the likes of some class D amps such as the Hypex and Purifi based amps. Those people would likely need to have pre out voltage higher than 1.2 V, such as 2 V or higher and still maintain SINAD of better than 70 dB, but that still would depend on their seating distance and listening habit.