Should You Use Cables as Tone Controls?

[Out-Of-Phase]

Mapleshade speaker cables

"If you've tried changing wires but never hurt much difference, there's good reason. Virtually all speaker cables—audiophile or "off the spool"—incorporate the same design mistakes: overly thick, multi-stranded wire conductors insulated with excessively thick plastic. There are as many variations of this mistaken recipe as there are brands. But when you compare them, you just hear different flavors of flawed sound. Excessively fat wires muddy the bass, roll off the treble, and bury the midrange detail of any speaker. Stranded conductors always degrade stereo imaging and transparency. Thicker insulation makes speakers sound sluggish and smeared."

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Mapleshade speaker cables

"If you've tried changing wires but never hurt much difference, there's good reason. Virtually all speaker cables—audiophile or "off the spool"—incorporate the same design mistakes: overly thick, multi-stranded wire conductors insulated with excessively thick plastic. There are as many variations of this mistaken recipe as there are brands. But when you compare them, you just hear different flavors of flawed sound. Excessively fat wires muddy the bass, roll off the treble, and bury the midrange detail of any speaker. Stranded conductors always degrade stereo imaging and transparency. Thicker insulation makes speakers sound sluggish and smeared."

One of the biggest frauds out there…

 

[NINaudio]

Here is another resource from a peer reviewed white paper that there are
"clear systematic differences in the electrical performance of interconnect cables of different grades" .
At the end of the day I wouldn't buy a cable because a peer reviewed paper says it will improve audio performance. I buy it because I like it. The flip side I must admit is that other members can read the same research and NOT buy it because they DON'T like it.
But at the end of the day, their IS an "astonishing" (as Danny would say) difference:

An Electrical Study of Single Ended Analog Interconnect Cables
IOSR Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering e-ISSN: 2278-2834, p-SSN: 2278-8735.Volume 16, Issue 6, Series I (Nov. – Dec. 2021), pp. 40-53

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Interconnect-cable-measurements--Kunchur.pdf

Everyone knows that different cables will have differences in their electrical performance. That doesn't mean much in and of itself.

The conclusion says this:

"While the nominal reactive time constants may possibly be too short (<100 ns) for discernibility, the decay times arising from nonideal effects are not obviously negligible (~1 us), especially when multiple occurrences combine along the audio chain."

Which is basically a whole lot of hand waving and "maybe, possibly" and definitely does not support any sort of "astonishing" difference.

 

[OHMisback]

Complete nonsense. Once the speaker cable is terminated to a low impedance load (aka. Speaker), the antenna effect is eliminated.

Thanks, I never paid a lot of attention how the RF use to come through, but today it is almost nonexistent around me. Every now and then on an over cast day
I can get hammered. Lightning storms suck too. 30-50 strike an hour at a cabin I have. I Just unplug the solar trailer and check the bonding plug.
Sit it out, humming to myself. See what's on fire after it quits.

Danny is using it as an antenna. That's the funny part. He's saying HIS 24 conductor cable is rejecting the FM/AM better via his little test. Again pretty 101.
He use to weave his own then he got the weaves by the spool and at a lot cheaper price. I thought it was OFC not OCC copper to. Both are good just by
the way they are made. A crappy termination COULD cancel all that great looking, neutral sounding cable right out. USE an aluminum terminal end.
A nice thick one too on that FANCY copper cable. It will sound like I put tape over MY tweeters. Then swap to a pure copper terminal ends.
Screws, NO SOLDER. I dip the wire in # 2000 graphite dust and tight the screws

IF I can't hear the difference I go get a hearing test and check if I've had a stroke.

He's right HIS 24 conductor speaker cable (the way it's wired) is not a good antenna. According to his test the different cables worked better as
receivers vs his cable. I could see a few stations coming through, I didn't pay close attention, but I didn't hear him say it SOUNDED better or worse or
the same. NOT adding noise to a cable is good, Ay?

The speaker IC isn't as big a problem as the RCAs, especially on a phono/tape section with a SUT in the mix too. It's being amplified over and over.
A simple WEAVE and the right shielding can sound like a 10K cart (that someone else bought not me) the perfect TT and perfect record too boot. Rare!!

OTOH it could sound worse than anything you have EVER heard in your life. Crappy Tonearm to SUT RCAs, SUT to phono RCAs, phono pre to preamp RCAs.
Pick any single cable, in the chain that will do it. The closer to the cart the greater the amplification.

In my case Blow the tweeter or the bass driver if your a little heavy handed or drop a tone arm to quick. I don't use much protection at all in the XOs.

WIRING that is not well-shielded can pick up radio signals as well as signals from portable phones and other devices.

Active RCA fed speakers can be a problem. "What if" they have both active and passive XOs?
TWO cables running side by side one is a crappy RCA the other a crappy unshielded speaker cable? Now ad a Crappy PC on a different leg of the fuse panel
I know I'd have my ear muffs on. Ground loops with hula hoops, and RI from the kids crappy radio kit he got on line from Radio Shack for 6.00 USD

LOL some people build problems into a system because they refuse to understand there is a place for the right STUFF and NO place for the OTHER STUFF.

A long cable not only increases power line common-impedance coupling (for unbalanced cables), but it also makes the cable a better antenna. Routing cables close to ground planes, metal racks or concrete floors will reduce the antenna effects. It's the crappy XLRs too that are terminated on the wrong end going to single ended non compliant XLRs. Compliant XLRs can be made out of good copper and good insulation and work perfect 50+

I preach this, ROUTING, SPACE between cables 1/2-1" and LOW to the ground. Cross ALL wires at 90 degrees. Don't argue just do it. It's what my 50 year old
Journeyman said 50 years ago. "It works just do it". $hit he was right about twisting wires and soldering too. Clean, Clean, Clean. Before, during, and after.
BTW keep the dust off your cables and your cable off the ground. It's easier to clean.

RFI/EFI can ruin a well planned evening with wires running out to the patio and a 40 foot ham tower right next door. 2000 or 2001.
He decides to talk to Australia THAT DAY. I didn't realize what they were talking about until I listened. I was using VOTT and C20/MC60s.
You could hear him pretty easy. I complained and he did something to help out. He could climb right over my tube gear.
I don't miss the guy, mean bastard.

Remember too, older speakers were 20-24 ohm speakers with solid core wire and cotton/fabric covers.
The old crossovers on Jensen Imperials, Altecs, and Klipsch set horizontal at the top of a TALL cabinet. Mine all used SC WE copper/fabric wire.
I think they were pretty good antennas too. LOL

2 Side Notes:

1. A simple method of determining the location of electrical interference is by using a portable battery-powered AM radio tuned to a quiet frequency at the lower end of the dial. You should hear static or a buzzing sound as you get close to the source of the interference.

2. Shielding can suck the life out of a great sounding system. The less you can get away with, the better off you are.

Time to feed the chickens

 

[Replicant 7]

You said you were not taking Danny up on his invitation to visit. I hope you interview him instead then for another video in the future. I know you are busy hosting the panel on room acoustics for the show this week-end, maybe sometime next quarter.

I'd sure would be there for that. If Gene would take any of those up on a meeting of the minds. You already know Gene is the undisputed Audio King of finding the truth in audio. Not just in pursuing the truth in audio that's just his endeavor. People: (Are going think what they think, say what they say, and draw from their own conclusions.) That's my take on all this speaker cable mess.

 

[Replicant 7]

Everyone knows that different cables will have differences in their electrical performance. That doesn't mean much in and of itself.

The conclusion says this:

"While the nominal reactive time constants may possibly be too short (<100 ns) for discernibility, the decay times arising from nonideal effects are not obviously negligible (~1 us), especially when multiple occurrences combine along the audio chain."

Which is basically a whole lot of hand waving and "maybe, possibly" and definitely does not support any sort of "astonishing" difference.

I ready don't know how to respond to your comment posted. It's that clearly understood by me anyways and others I'm sure of. You just proved I still have a ways to go, in getting my learn on. Thanks for sharing.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'd sure would be there for that. If Gene would take any of those up on a meeting of the minds. You already know Gene is the undisputed Audio King of finding the truth in audio. Not just in pursuing the truth in audio that's just his endeavor. People: (Are going think what they think, say what they say, and draw from their own conclusions.) That's my take on all this speaker cable mess.

I’d love to see gene give Danny a mental body slam!

 

[lovinthehd]

I’d love to see gene give Danny a mental body slam!

Danny won't do it on Gene's terms and Gene won't do it on Danny's....so not much there. I understand Gene's position much more than Danny's weak excuses, tho.

 

[witchdoctor]

One of the biggest frauds out there…

No, Pierre Sprey from Mapleshade is actually a standup guy. I called Mapleshade to order speaker stands once and he suggested I order the MUCH less expensive ones, his Bedrock speaker stands. They looked funny but he said I could return them. They worked out great, I saved $$$, and I own them now more than 10 years and they are still going strong. He took a short term financial hit without blinking an eye because he wanted the customer to be happy for the long term. Works for me .

 

[lovinthehd]

No, Pierre Sprey from Mapleshade is actually a standup guy. I called Mapleshade to order speaker stands once and he suggested I order the MUCH less expensive ones, his Bedrock speaker stands. They looked funny but he said I could return them. They worked out great, I saved $$$, and I own them now more than 10 years and they are still going strong.

LOL one of the biggest ripoff sites in audio. Your tastes in such however, meh.

 

[witchdoctor]

Everyone knows that different cables will have differences in their electrical performance. That doesn't mean much in and of itself.

The conclusion says this:

"While the nominal reactive time constants may possibly be too short (<100 ns) for discernibility, the decay times arising from nonideal effects are not obviously negligible (~1 us), especially when multiple occurrences combine along the audio chain."

Which is basically a whole lot of hand waving and "maybe, possibly" and definitely does not support any sort of "astonishing" difference.

"Skeptics dismiss cable audibility as a “snake-oil claim” partly on the grounds that certain measurements—for example, of RLC (resistance, inductance, and capacitance) and FR (frequency response)— do not reveal meaningful differences between cables. Also cables are viewed as non-distorting linear networks between components that can be characterized by fixed transfer functions. However, as shown here, such views of how cables operate are incomplete and incorrect." (from 1. Introduction, page 1)

That would be you NINaudio, incomplete, incorrect, and inappropriate as usual. Next time watch the video or read the papers I post. Gotta put the block on you again, good luck with your audio whatever.

 

[lovinthehd]

"Skeptics dismiss cable audibility as a “snake-oil claim” partly on the grounds that certain measurements—for example, of RLC (resistance, inductance, and capacitance) and FR (frequency response)— do not reveal meaningful differences between cables. Also cables are viewed as non-distorting linear networks between components that can be characterized by fixed transfer functions. However, as shown here, such views of how cables operate are incomplete and incorrect." (from 1. Introduction, page 1)

That would be you NINaudio, incomplete, incorrect, and inappropriate as usual. Next time watch the video or read the papers I post. Gotta put the block on you again, good luck with your audio whatever.

LOL what makes your comment "complete" or "correct" ? You so far have proved yourself inadequate on such determinations....

 

[gene]

Mapleshade speaker cables

"If you've tried changing wires but never hurt much difference, there's good reason. Virtually all speaker cables—audiophile or "off the spool"—incorporate the same design mistakes: overly thick, multi-stranded wire conductors insulated with excessively thick plastic. There are as many variations of this mistaken recipe as there are brands. But when you compare them, you just hear different flavors of flawed sound. Excessively fat wires muddy the bass, roll off the treble, and bury the midrange detail of any speaker. Stranded conductors always degrade stereo imaging and transparency. Thicker insulation makes speakers sound sluggish and smeared."

Wow so much misinformation in one post.

 

[gene]

Here is another resource from a peer reviewed white paper that there are
"clear systematic differences in the electrical performance of interconnect cables of different grades" .
At the end of the day I wouldn't buy a cable because a peer reviewed paper says it will improve audio performance. I buy it because I like it. The flip side I must admit is that other members can read the same research and NOT buy it because they DON'T like it.
But at the end of the day, their IS an "astonishing" (as Danny would say) difference:

An Electrical Study of Single Ended Analog Interconnect Cables
IOSR Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering e-ISSN: 2278-2834, p-SSN: 2278-8735.Volume 16, Issue 6, Series I (Nov. – Dec. 2021), pp. 40-53

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Interconnect-cable-measurements--Kunchur.pdf

That study is interesting but seems to be flawed as can be seen in this thread:

Milind Kunchur Blind Cable Test

I know that people have stated, with links, that Kuncher made many mistakes in this paper: http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf Thread showing inaccurate measurements: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,73598.0.html However, I have not seen...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, let's for the moment assume his findings are true that noise is the culprit for audibility difference in cables. I find it humorous that most "audiophile" cables have the worst shielding topologies or no shielding at all. IF you don't want noise, use double braided/double foil shielded coax. If it's good enough for up to 3GHz of BW for broadcast standards and for sensitive measurement test gear, it is most certainly good enough for audio reproduction.

 

[witchdoctor]

If anyone hear claims to be "about th

That study is interesting but seems to be flawed as can be seen in this thread:

Milind Kunchur Blind Cable Test

I know that people have stated, with links, that Kuncher made many mistakes in this paper: http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf Thread showing inaccurate measurements: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,73598.0.html However, I have not seen...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is why you are the Master Chief. I'm not a journalist, I can't interview these guys. I would really like a series with you interviewing the "scientists" who are doing these studies. Not an ex-Microsoft executive turned audio dealer who prefaces his "scientific" reviews with "I am a dealer so infer as much bias as you like", that ain't science I don't care what moniker you want to call your website. This was a peer reviewed study in a "scientific" journal that would make a great guest on your NEXT panel. As for what study is right and wrong, I already said I don't buy any product because of a study. I buy it because I like it. But like the author said, this is not "snake oil", the differences are real and I think a panel with Danny, Dr. Kunchur, or any of the scientists in his supporting bibliography, (Yoneya, Wang, et al) along with some industry execs would be great for your next event or a new series on your channel.

 

[gene]

If anyone hear claims to be "about th

This is why you are the Master Chief. I'm not a journalist, I can't interview these guys. I would really like a series with you interviewing the "scientists" who are doing these studies. Not an ex-Microsoft executive turned audio dealer who prefaces his "scientific" reviews with "I am a dealer so infer as much bias as you like", that ain't science I don't care what moniker you want to call your website. This was a peer reviewed study in a "scientific" journal that would make a great guest on your NEXT panel. As for what study is right and wrong, I already said I don't buy any product because of a study. I buy it because I like it. But like the author said, this is not "snake oil", the differences are real and I think a panel with Danny, Dr. Kunchur, or any of the scientists in his supporting bibliography, (Yoneya, Wang, et al) along with some industry execs would be great for your next event or a new series on your channel.

All good ideas but in reality, I wish I had the time or desire to prove what I already know to be true in a scientific setting. I know what works based on 20+ years of professional installation and calibration. The guys claiming the esoterics are better, can never back it up with any measurable response or controlled listening tests. If you use exotic cables that are poorly designed and don't have proper shielding, noise pick up is very possible and audible. That's why I stick with broadcast and pro audio grade cables. NEVER an issue when you stick with legit products grounded in engineering that is well understood. Most of the cable guys are against EQ or passive room treatments which have a far more profound impact on sound as I indicated in my article. I just listened to a $300k+ system at the Audio Advice show that would blow your mind. Guess what cables they used? DB 25 to connect the Trinnov products and regular speaker cables all around. Nothing fancy, but the electronics, speaker placement and set up was superb. Not one person asked about the cables.

 

[witchdoctor]

All good ideas but in reality, I wish I had the time or desire to prove what I already know to be true in a scientific setting. I know what works based on 20+ years of professional installation and calibration. The guys claiming the esoterics are better, can never back it up with any measurable response or controlled listening tests. If you use exotic cables that are poorly designed and don't have proper shielding, noise pick up is very possible and audible. That's why I stick with broadcast and pro audio grade cables. NEVER an issue when you stick with legit products grounded in engineering that is well understood. Most of the cable guys are against EQ or passive room treatments which have a far more profound impact on sound as I indicated in my article. I just listened to a $300k+ system at the Audio Advice show that would blow your mind. Guess what cables they used? DB 25 to connect the Trinnov products and regular speaker cables all around. Nothing fancy, but the electronics, speaker placement and set up was superb. Not one person asked about the cables.

If I connected a $300K system with bubble gum and tape it would sound good. I still think a round table with some scientists who are outside the "industry" would be very interesting for members. These scientists in a university setting clearly have no dog in the race because getting papers like that published isn't easy and if your data gets shot down good luck getting published again. I think you would have the right questions to make this important research interesting, not dry like reading those white papers.

 

[Trell]

If I connected a $300K system with bubble gum and tape it would sound good. I still think a round table with some scientists who are outside the "industry" would be very interesting for members. These scientists in a university setting clearly have no dog in the race because getting papers like that published isn't easy and if your data gets shot down good luck getting published again. I think you would have the right questions to make this important research interesting, not dry like reading those white papers.

This is a post made in bad faith as he would never accept what they say in the first place. For audio this is a solved problem.

 

[Replicant 7]

That study is interesting but seems to be flawed as can be seen in this thread:

Milind Kunchur Blind Cable Test

I know that people have stated, with links, that Kuncher made many mistakes in this paper: http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf Thread showing inaccurate measurements: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,73598.0.html However, I have not seen...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, let's for the moment assume his findings are true that noise is the culprit for audibility difference in cables. I find it humorous that most "audiophile" cables have the worst shielding topologies or no shielding at all. IF you don't want noise, use double braided/double foil shielded coax. If it's good enough for up to 3GHz of BW for broadcast standards and for sensitive measurement test gear, it is most certainly good enough for audio reproduction.

Gene!! very niice!! And some, wonder why your holding a electrical extension cord in your right hand. Shielding used of those types of power cords AKA cable/cord. It's imperative that shielded cables are used in the petroleum industries. Those types are exposed to extreme elements. That's just one of the reasons that a ugly, nasty looking electrical power cord will make for good speaker use.

Edit: if that's all one had at the time to use. I've stated this before on your thread, and got inundated with the same very posts and comments you're getting hit with now from, the naysayers. club "SOC,K'S".

 

[OHMisback]

People: (Are going think what they think, say what they say, and draw from their own conclusions.) That's my take on all this speaker cable mess.

Yup.

If I connected a $300K system with bubble gum and tape it would sound good. I still think a round table with some scientists who are outside the "industry" would be very interesting for members. These scientists in a university setting clearly have no dog in the race because getting papers like that published isn't easy and if your data gets shot down good luck getting published again. I think you would have the right questions to make this important research interesting, not dry like reading those white papers.

I've seen and heard 300K systems in the pool house a few time and the EXPENSIVE system in the main STEREO room. 300k WAS a drop in the bucket 10 years ago.
Like I said I worked around some serious foundation drilling companies, what do you think people were setting on those foundations? 1000 sf music rooms on a
mountain outcrop in Aspin. The music room alone was 2 million, the gear was more. Krell/JBL install. The bar was an Art Deco wrap that was 200K. I worked on
one in Oakland TWICE. It burnt down in the Oakland fire. He rebuilt. Ball player. When money is no object and no one with any sense is involved, you get what
you pay for all right.

I KNOW I can take a room 16 X 22 X 9. 30K in room treatment, gear and speakers and get really close to ANY 300k system if not better. The longer I spend
with a system the better it gets. The problem is it won't look as good. There is a point where the cost of the equipment, cables, speakers and hearing aids are
not worth a nickel in an untreated room.
Worse than that is someone that thinks they know how to treat ALL rooms. AV setup vs serious 2 channel. There is a considerable step up in SQ. Some AVP
setups are pretty good I must admit. There is something about the sterile world of solid state. No matter where I uses it, I find myself sticking in a good analog
source and tubes SOMEWHERE. Concussive hearing and SS don't go together. Something to do with harmonics in the lower and higher frequencies, but more so
from 8Khv UP it can boil my ears. NO hard domes, I don't care who makes them.

Most 300K systems I would think are balanced right out to the speaker. PRO cables are all you need. The design on the old Infinity Beta Vs and IRA Betas were fully
differential. I upgraded the quality of the cables and crossovers on both types of speakers. I had IRA Betas for over 15 years. Wonderful sound effects, dipoles suck though. So did the cables and crossovers on those things. The fact was, they were designed around cables too. Cables weren't an afterthought.

THE QLS1 did have some lessons to learn from. I know, I owned some of the first ones made. (Beta team 1 of 6). My QLS1s were servo equipped sand tuned cabinets.
THEN they switched gears and went with planars and stuck with a servo accelerometer on a main driver (and added) coupled slave drivers. SLOW but effective.
It was all balanced. NO NOISE!. No need for fancy cables.

Now they spend 30K on a place to plug $hit into. I KNOW I can build a wonderful system FEW could say one system was better than the other. 30K vs 300K

BTW I don't care about anyone else's ears or what they believe they have proven. Things change. I don't need to prove a well designed system has nothing to do
with money and more to do with the room treatment vs anything else. Especially anything over 30K in gear. Hell I could do it with 2K if I was lucky and found a
deal or two. LOOKS on the other hand. I like ugly women, sometimes. It depends on what they can DO. So the 2K system may not look to good, BUT it works
really well.

I can tell everything I need to know about a system by looking at the cable routing and how the system is coupled or decoupled from the room.
I have to listen and take some measurements AFTER I take care of the cabling, decoupling and THEN placement of speakers. NOT the other way around.
No room treatment, no listen. I don't waste my time. 45 YEARS of setting up rooms and boats and planes, and churches, and bars, my skating ring.
I admit no trains cars yet, BUT I do have my eye on a decommissioned Amtrak coach with a top view.

Decommissioned aircraft carrier would be cool too. Leave the reactor please.