Most Precise / Accurate / Tight Sub 2022 for Critical Listening. POLL

Which of the 3 for 2 ch. critical studio listening?


  • Total voters
    18
D

doctors11

Enthusiast
Would something like the Martin Logan models which incorporate Anthem Room Correction work for you? They, in theory, should give you close to ruler flat base response in your listening position.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am not opposed to SVS, I have just always heard they are just flabby bass boxes and are not articulate. Opinions?
I think you have a misconception of the physics of LF reproduction, and subs in particular.

There are two aspects to arcuate articulate bass.

The first issue is resonance and the Q of that resonance. All bass reproducing systems are resonant, even sealed ones. There is a point though, where if the total Q of the system is below 0.5 then the system will sound essentially non resonant. The only two ways I know of getting an essentially non resonant sub, is by having and open baffle sub, which is highly inefficient, or using a critically damped pipe known as a critically damped transmission line. The latter is what I favor, but I have to design and build them.

The other issue is commerce. The wretched marketers want the designers to go for maximally low F3. Now, there is a conflict between maximally low F3 and low Q. An optimal ported design can, and often does have an acceptably low Q, even if not considered critically damped, which no reflex enclosure can be. However because of "my F3 is lower then your F3", designers get pushed to extended bass tuning, which raises Q. In my view this is the wrong trade off.

I have designed a number of subs for members here, and tuned for low Q rather then lowest F3. I think they have all been very pleased with their subs.

The next issue is transient response, and the ability to produce a square wave. This requires a broad frequency response, which a sub obviously does not have. It is a highly restricted FR. The only speaker that I am aware of that can produce a reasonable square wave is the Quad electrostatic speaker.

Good transient response requires, not only low Q and a broad frequency response, but also that there be no serious phase distortions across the frequency spectrum. In other words that all frequencies be in time with one another. Well as you probably know, all cone type speakers with crossovers are awash in phase/time anomalies. So transient response is highly suboptimal. When you talk about a sub separated in space, and therefore time, from the other speakers, then the problem is massively compounded.

That is why I have designed speakers that have an integrated TL bass system, keeping phase/time aberrations to the minimum. So I certainly produce low Q bass, better timed with the other frequencies. The advent of active designs with DSP I think will improve this situation enormously.
I have a feeling that it won't be long before we see a moving coil speaker that will produce a reasonable facsimile of a square wave, and not something that bears no possible resemblance to the square wave input which is the case at present.

The last point I need to stress, is that all instruments, including drums, and yes, the bass drum, have significant HF content, well above sub range. So how this range of frequencies is kept in time, has a big impact on the slam factor. The other is low Q, which when on the high side, adds a degree of resonance to the drum beat reducing the realism of the reproduction.

If you have recorded instruments live, which I have done, you become acutely aware of these issues. I suspect that you are now coming to terms with this reality, and asking no matter what mic you use and in what position, it never sounds like the real thing. I have given you that explanation. However some systems get an awful lot closer to the truth than others.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I believe it's called an expression. :confused:
My point is that well engineered systems are right by design and NOT luck. Good design will get you more nearly correct, and luck wrong as often as chance, which is invariably wrong.
 
A

auralux

Junior Audioholic
My point is that well engineered systems are right by design and NOT luck. Good design will get you more nearly correct, and luck wrong as often as chance, which is invariably wrong.
And I believe I simply made an expression. If you care to comment specifically on the Arendal subs please do. ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
And I believe I simply made an expression. If you care to comment specifically on the Arendal subs please do. ;)
Having a sealed sub, will give you more Eq possibilities. That is one advantage of a sealed unit, but they are very inefficient in the low frequencies.
I suspect Eq, will be the best place to start from. Let us know how you get on.
 
A

auralux

Junior Audioholic
The Hsu ULS-15 mk2 is basically an 18" cube and it has a 15" driver. It does not have DSP, and in its EQ1 mode it achieves a flat response down to 20Hz. It also has XLR inputs. That is nearly perfect. Another sub that fits your criteria is the Rythmik F12. It's a bit smaller, but it won't have the headroom of the Hsu. If you can get over DSP, look at the SVS SB-3000 and Arendal 1723 1S. Both of those are very good subs.
Which would you favor more, the Rythmik or the SVS? Bearing in mind this is for a mixing and mastering room. Thanks!
 
A

auralux

Junior Audioholic
Would something like the Martin Logan models which incorporate Anthem Room Correction work for you? They, in theory, should give you close to ruler flat base response in your listening position.
Tell me more about Martin Logan. I am considering the Dynamo 1100X.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Tell me more about Martin Logan. I am considering the Dynamo 1100X.
I thought you ordered an Arendal sub, which for your application seemed a very reasonable choice. So what happened?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Let's just say it didn't work out.
Now I understand why you needed luck!

The Martin Logan will be a significant downgrade, from HSU, SVS or Rhythmic.

I do have experience with the HSU. I used a couple of them in an installation I did for a couple who bought our former home. I thought they were a decent sub, or though not quite as tight as I would like, but then it was a commercial sub. It was a little short of what I would design, but certainly very acceptable and good value for money.
 
A

auralux

Junior Audioholic
Now I understand why you needed luck!

The Martin Logan will be a significant downgrade, from HSU, SVS or Rhythmic.

I do have experience with the HSU. I used a couple of them in an installation I did for a couple who bought our former home. I thought they were a decent sub, or though not quite as tight as I would like, but then it was a commercial sub. It was a little short of what I would design, but certainly very acceptable and good value for money.
I have seen a little bit of down talk about Rythmik from one of the reviewers here. Saying it is downstream from the likes of Arendal and that the servo technology may not be worth it. What's that all about?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have seen a little bit of down talk about Rythmik from one of the reviewers here. Saying it is downstream from the likes of Arendal and that the servo technology may not be worth it. What's that all about?
I'm not sure what it is about. I'm not sure the complication of servo control adds to the equation given the complication. The driver has two voice coils, on drives the cone, the other senses the motion, and sends it back to a comparator type circuit, to correct motional errors in cone movement. So it is a feedback loop if you like. It does increase power demands to a degree I believe. I don't think there are quality concerns as long as it all works.

For music production work you need an accurate sub for sure. It is that old adage that you very much do master to your speakers. So having accurate speakers that you can trust is crucial.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I have seen a little bit of down talk about Rythmik from one of the reviewers here. Saying it is downstream from the likes of Arendal and that the servo technology may not be worth it. What's that all about?
I own 2 of the Rythmik FV18'S I just bought them. Rythmik is amazing. But here's the thing once you get to the level of Rythmik HSU SVS Arendal PSA and the other major ID sub companies. They're all thanks to great developers going to sound great.

You just need to pick the right balance of customer service savings aesthetics and room size that helps you narrow it down to the right company for you.

They are all going to be awesome. You need to pick which one is going to be awesome for you based on your needs. How big is this room?

And I think it was brought up sealed over ported. Thanks to advantages in subs and speaker technology there really these days is no difference between a sealed vs a ported sub based on sound quality. So it boils down to size ease of placement and what your using it for ported have more output down low to theyre port tune. And even if a sealed sub has a bigger driver that driver is going to be working way harder down to 20hz. And they take way more power to push that driver in a sealed box to perform lower.
 
D

doctors11

Enthusiast
Tell me more about Martin Logan. I am considering the Dynamo 1100X.
I dug deep into researching small subs for a music only system about two years ago. I had to put that on hold but every review I read about the Dynamo series with ARC (included in some Paradigm subs too) said it worked extremely well. These subs can't compete with the other brands mentioned when it comes to home theater, but for music it does very well, especially if you buy the optional calibrated mic. A couple of the reviews showed REW results before and after and it did indeed flatten the response. I'm curious why others feel ML is a few steps down from the others.
 
A

auralux

Junior Audioholic
Would the SVS SB-3000 be considered as “accurate” and articulate as the Rythmik F12?
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I'm a fan of sealed subs. They seem to have tighter sound for me. I own 4 subwoofers but only one is sealed. The difference is more than meaningful. So I recommend choosing such a design that fits your budget.
 
A

auralux

Junior Audioholic
I'm a fan of sealed subs. They seem to have tighter sound for me. I own 4 subwoofers but only one is sealed. The difference is more than meaningful. So I recommend choosing such a design that fits your budget.
I definitely plan on going sealed! Just trying to pick a pair. Seeing a lot more love for the SVS subs than I expected! I always thought they were just for wall shaking bass and not accuracy. Leaning towards the SB-3000.
 
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