If you had 5k-7k$……

[PENG]

I have been eyeing the 212RT for a while now .

Back on topic haha, any thoughts on the following amps?

Anthem MCA 325
Parasound 52+
Parasound 21+
Outlaw 2220
outlaw 7000X

Those are fine, but going from the 125 W X4300H you should get 250 W minimum (to gain just 3 dB in terms of spl) in order to notice a difference so there is not much point going with the Outlaw 7000X. For future proofing, I would recommend the following:

Stereo music
For a generous budget:
M23 - NAD Electronics

On a tight budget:
VTV AMPLIFIER Stereo Hypex NC502MP NCore Amplifier 500WX2 | VTV Amplifier
2-channel Hypex NC502MP NCORE Amplifier — Buckeye Amps - Hypex NCORE and Purifi 1ET400A

Note: The Buckeye Amps are very well built (I have one) for the price, but I think they may have a long wait time at the moment.

or if you want a strong amp for the center channel for movics:

VTV Amplifier Hypex NC502MP+NC500MP Three Channel Amplifier 3X500 W | VTV Amplifier

In any case, you probably should find out how much power you really need and then allow for an extra 3 dB extra (headroom) that you probably would never access.

Peak SPL Calculator (hometheaterengineering.com)

 

[mx416]

Thank you all for the advice.

 

[mx416]

Looking at 2x outlaw 2220 just to see if it’s an power/headroom thing or a speaker/room issue. Thanks again

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Looking at 2x outlaw 2220 just to see if it’s an power/headroom thing or a speaker/room issue. Thanks again

I don’t know if anyone is placing bets, but I would bet that the amps won’t make any difference in sound.

It seems like your current system already sounds very good.

If you already have $7K saved up, I would put that $7K in a “Last System You Will Ever Need to Buy“ Funds and plan your long term ultimate system.

1. Speakers - at least the MAIN Front Left + Right
2. AVP + Amp (it seems you WANT separates instead of AVR for your ultimate system)

Spending a little here and there on budget components most likely won’t go far. Time to plan that LONG TERM ultimate system.

 

[mx416]

I don’t know if anyone is placing bets, but I would bet that the amps won’t make any difference in sound.

It seems like your current system already sounds very good.

If you already have $7K saved up, I would put that $7K in a “Last System You Will Ever Need to Buy“ Funds and plan your long term ultimate system.

1. Speakers - at least the MAIN Front Left + Right
2. AVP + Amp (it seems you WANT separates instead of AVR for your ultimate system)

Spending a little here and there on budget components most likely won’t go far. Time to plan that LONG TERM ultimate system.

Thanks ADTG, definitely not sold on separates long term. However it seems at some point in peoples audio journey that external amps become necessary.(obviously depends on multiple facts).
Sound advice, Ill keep saving for those JTR’s. Or legacy audios I have been dreaming of….

 

[mx416]

got a question for the experienced folks.

Would there be any significant differance from my X4300H with RCAs to an external amp verse a X3700H/X4700H to the same external amp using the “new” Denon pre out mode?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

got a question for the experienced folks.

Would there be any significant differance from my X4300H with RCAs to an external amp verse a X3700H/X4700H to the same external amp using the “new” Denon pre out mode?

Should operate cooler in preout mode. But no difference in SQ.

 

[witchdoctor]

I would get a processor with WIDE channels capable of DTS-X Pro. Everyone is so about the height channels which is all good. Wide channels are at a 60 degree angle to your listening position and immerse you for the content happening in the bed channels. Fantastic with music and movies. I think the Marantz 8805 would be capable but not Anthem or Yamaha.

lets talk about front wides

they are definitely having a moment again. i hear that "nobody uses them", "front wides are dying". well a bunch of heavy hitters lately are saying that front wides are more useful in a system then an extra pair of overhead atmos speakers, or even rear surrounds. who is championing them? guys...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[PENG]

got a question for the experienced folks.

Would there be any significant differance from my X4300H with RCAs to an external amp verse a X3700H/X4700H to the same external amp using the “new” Denon pre out mode?

I have experience with similar models and I can offer some comments based on specs, measurements and subjective impression as follow:

In direct and pure direct mode, if you don't need the output voltage to exceed about 1.4 to 1.5 V. There is no evidence to even speculate because the main contributing factors to SQ including circuitry, dac, volume control and opamp ICs are practically the same. With dsp it depends.

If you need more than 1.5 V, then the answer would be, it depends. At output voltages higher than that, THD+N would starts to increase quickly, due to feedback from the power amp section (that would start to clip), and the 4700 is immune to that if preamp mode it used.

Even then, I say it still depends because:

a) Without preamp mode, based on measurements of the 3300 (Audioholics) and the 4700, 3700 (Audiosciencereview), the Denon AVRs THD+N would increase from the power amp's clipping point (about 1.5 V) but would still be at about 0.018%. That's based on a 1 kHz test signal, but the test results showed even for the 20 to 20,000 Hz range, THD+N remained below 0.032%.

b) Depending on your distance, max dpl you listen to at the distance, your speaker's sensitivity and your power amp's gain, you may not ever need more than 1.2 to 1.5 V anyway. For example, if my case, even 0.5 V is plenty high for me so my X4400H would likely have distortions of less than 0.001% for the most part.

In case you may ask how it would compare with using a Marantz prepro (so called separates):
c) Preamp mode or not, it could well be anecdotal if you consider the fact that the so called separates often have higher distortions. My favorite example is the Marantz AV7705 and 7706 that have slightly higher distortions than Denon's AVR-X3700H and X4700H, yet their owners seem to like them and never complain about hearing distortions and/or noise.

d) I highly doubt people can hear the difference between 0.001% THD and 0.05%, or even 0.1%. You can look at blind test results and will see that even experienced audiophiles, reviews could not score better than even 1%. So imo, the chance of audible difference between Denon AVR's normal mode, preamp mode and Marantz prepro would be 0, if compared following DBT or even just SBT protocols. Preamp mode will obviously save energy, help the unit to run slightly cooler, and prepros have the added benefits (no audible effects in most cases) of using XLR output.

My suggestion is, keep the X4300H and wait for the supply chain issues to get resolved (no idea when the way things are going) and see what's going to happen with the X4800H (or 4900?). Unless you badly need some features that the 4300 does not have.

 

[mx416]

Thank you for the responses. Peng thanks for the explanation and detail.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would get a processor with WIDE channels capable of DTS-X Pro. Everyone is so about the height channels which is all good. Wide channels are at a 60 degree angle to your listening position and immerse you for the content happening in the bed channels. Fantastic with music and movies. I think the Marantz 8805 would be capable but not Anthem or Yamaha.

lets talk about front wides

they are definitely having a moment again. i hear that "nobody uses them", "front wides are dying". well a bunch of heavy hitters lately are saying that front wides are more useful in a system then an extra pair of overhead atmos speakers, or even rear surrounds. who is championing them? guys...

forums.audioholics.com

I think the problem with having too many speakers (wides, heights, etc.) is that you have too many speakers competing with each other for sound simultaneously.

I mean you have the MAIN FRONT 3 speakers + all your subwoofers blazing away. Then all your heights or wides are competing with all the sound SIMULTANEOUSLY. Then add in the 4+ Atmos ceiling speakers to compete with all the other speakers concurrently.

I think great speakers can IMAGE extremely well. So we don't really need so many speakers, especially in a typical 20' x 18' x 10' ceiling room or smaller.

 

[Trell]

I think the problem with having too many speakers (wides, heights, etc.) is that you have too many speakers competing with each other for sound simultaneously.

I mean you have the MAIN FRONT 3 speakers + all your subwoofers blazing away. Then all your heights or wides are competing with all the sound SIMULTANEOUSLY. Then add in the 4+ Atmos ceiling speakers to compete with all the other speakers concurrently.

I think great speakers can IMAGE extremely well. So we don't really need so many speakers, especially in a typical 20' x 18' x 10' ceiling room or smaller.

Isn’t a processor in a calibrated setup supposed to deal with many speakers? What am I missing here?

 

[witchdoctor]

I think the problem with having too many speakers (wides, heights, etc.) is that you have too many speakers competing with each other for sound simultaneously.

I mean you have the MAIN FRONT 3 speakers + all your subwoofers blazing away. Then all your heights or wides are competing with all the sound SIMULTANEOUSLY. Then add in the 4+ Atmos ceiling speakers to compete with all the other speakers concurrently.

I think great speakers can IMAGE extremely well. So we don't really need so many speakers, especially in a typical 20' x 18' x 10' ceiling room or smaller.

I agree 100% that sometimes more is not always better. I was introduced to wide channels in 2001 when Bob Carver included them with the Sunfire TG 3. He called them side axis channels. Once I got used to them I can't go without. DTS, Dolby, and Audyssey took wides to another level around 2010 with DTS-Neo-X, Audyssey DSX and Prologic II z and x. I still use DTS Neo-X and Audyssey DSX. Atmos includes wides now with DSU and DTS includes with DTS-X Pro.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Isn’t a processor in a calibrated setup supposed to deal with many speakers? What am I missing here?

For discrete sound (ATMOS, DD, DTS, etc.), the processor just decodes the sound - does what it’s told to do.

It’s up to the sound engineer to encode, which means they can mess up the sound, especially if you give them too many speakers. They could throw a bunch of sound in all the speakers simultaneously at the same volume.

Well, it depends on soundtracks and whatever sounds good to people.

 

[PENG]

For discrete sound (ATMOS, DD, DTS, etc.), the processor just decodes the sound - does what it’s told to do.

It’s up to the sound engineer to encode, which means they can mess up the sound, especially if you give them too many speakers. They could throw a bunch of sound in all the speakers simultaneously at the same volume.

Well, it depends on soundtracks and whatever sounds good to people.

In theory, the objected oriented ones such as Atmos should be able to deal with the issues you cited. In practice, I wonder how many have done AB comparison sighted, let alone blind, given that it would be very difficult, time consuming or even costly to do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In theory, the objected oriented ones such as Atmos should be able to deal with the issues you cited. In practice, I wonder how many have done AB comparison sighted, let alone blind, given that it would be very difficult, time consuming or even costly to do.

Well, one thing is for sure, manufacturers want everyone to install 24 speakers in their rooms because that means mo-money.

I'm shocked they haven't done Front-Middle Left (between Front-Left and Center) and Front-Middle-Right (between Front-Right and Center).

Think of the money - 801D4 Front Left, 801D4 Front Middle Left, 801D4 Center, 801D4 Front Middle Right, 801D4 Front Right. Lots of money right there.

 

[PENG]

Thanks ADTG, definitely not sold on separates long term. However it seems at some point in peoples audio journey that external amps become necessary.(obviously depends on multiple facts).

As you said there could be multiple facts. There are also multiple reasons to go with separate amps but imo the main reasons seem to be:

- Need external amp(s) that can deliver the current the speakers need, to produce the SPL required by the users at their listening distance.

- The desire to own such amp(s) that has way more output than is necessary for the users in their foreseeable needs to the point they could feel do it right the first time and can then focus of finding the best quality contents, players, preamp, processors.

- Perceived better build and reliability.

- Just have to get one, or more regardless....

I do feel sorry for those who went with separates power amps, or integrated amps (worse..) not because of their real need but because of the influence by hearsay, that claimed night and day audible difference in sound quality would be possible by adding such amps.

Facts can be cruel to some of those people some day. Lots of us experienced hobbyists leant it after spending lots of money that could have been more wisely spent. Thanks to several review sites that conduct measurements, inexperienced people can now do their research well in advance to avoid wasting time, money and efforts.

By the way, just take a look of the following just reviewed/ with detailed measurements of a Parasound power amp that is actually quite good for the price, but can anyone see evidence, or reasons for such a "separate" amp to "sound better" than the internal amps of a Denon, Yamaha or Marantz AVR for normal use? And whoever found the reason, please state their own definitions of "sound better", and "normal use".

Parasound 2125 V.2 Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Note that 80 dB SINAD = -80 dB THD+N = 0.01% THD+N

On ASR, I don't recall seeing too many separates or integrated that did better on the bench than AVRs regardless of price and weight.

Also note that you don't see any Denon/Marantz AVRs in this graph because all of them scored better than 83 dB SINAD.

Almost every other week we have people asking the same question that whether by adding an integrated amp or power amp to their AVRs will improve "the sound".

I think we need a thread with a title that can attract/direct people to such a catch all thread. @AcuDefTechGuy would be the ideal person to create such a thread based on track record.

 

[PENG]

Well, one thing is for sure, manufacturers want everyone to install 24 speakers in their rooms because that means mo-money.

I'm shocked they haven't done Front-Middle Left (between Front-Left and Center) and Front-Middle-Right (between Front-Right and Center).

Think of the money - 801D4 Front Left, 801D4 Front Middle Left, 801D4 Center, 801D4 Front Middle Right, 801D4 Front Right. Lots of money right there.

Don't you find it odd that a lot of those 13 or more channel lovers could actually hear much better sound quality between their AV processors I can never imagine being able to resolve such differences when blasted with so many speakers at the same time when watching the Jurassic, or Justice league kind of movies. Wish I was more prone to Placebo as life would have been more colorful..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't you find it odd that a lot of those 13 or more channel lovers could actually hear much better sound quality between their AV processors I can never imagine being able to resolve such differences when blasted with so many speakers at the same time when watching the Jurassic, or Justice league kind of movies. Wish I was more prone to Placebo as life would have been more colorful..

I saw the new movie "Prey 2022" (the new Predator movie) last Friday. It is in 4K/ATMOS. There were some good ATMOS overhead sound effects. But there was this one scene where the Predator ship flew overhead. And instead of focussing most of that overhead sound on the ceiling speakers and reducing the sounds to the other speakers, they put the sound in ALL the speakers. So this diminished the overhead sound effects of ATMOS because there is less isolation of the sounds.

I think this is a common problem. I can imagine having 24 speakers and hearing all 24 speakers blazing away simultaneously.

Just like all things in life - gotta have balance - not too little and not too much.

Oh, and to answer your question, some of these guys can hear the difference between THD+N of 0.01% vs 0.00001% even with 24 speakers blasting away.

 

[PENG]

I saw the new movie "Prey 2022" (the new Predator movie) last Friday. It is in 4K/ATMOS. There were some good ATMOS overhead sound effects. But there was this one scene where the Predator ship flew overhead. And instead of focussing most of that overhead sound on the ceiling speakers and reducing the sounds to the other speakers, they put the sound in ALL the speakers. So this diminished the overhead sound effects of ATMOS because there is less isolation of the sounds.

I think this is a common problem. I can imagine having 24 speakers and hearing all 24 speakers blazing away simultaneously.

Just like all things in life - gotta have balance - not too little and not too much.

In that case, the object based algorithm may not be as effective as they claimed, or its your set up not being optimum for the immersive sound encoding, or the sound engineers did a poor job that that movie mix, or all of the above??