Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Mikado463]

When I created this thread, I asked if we could have a reasonable discussion and you have proved that it's impossible.

well no, some of us can, it's 'Trell the troll' that makes things difficult

 

[GO-NAD!]

To get back to the question posed in the thread title, as long as the SCOTUS continues to disregard the intent and wording of the 2nd amendment, in favour of blatantly partisan decisions, rational discussion will continue to be meaningless.

Recent events have exposed the "good guy with a gun" theory as nonsense.
Addressing mental health issues with treatment and ownership restrictions is just picking around the edges of the problem.
The Uvalde massacre and America’s unique gun violence problem, explained - Vox

The link between gun deaths and gun ownership is much stronger than the link between violence and mental health issues. If it were possible to cure all schizophrenia, bipolar, and depressive disorders, violent crime in the US would fall by only 4 percent, according to a study from Duke University professor Jeffrey Swanson, who examines policies to reduce gun violence.

 

[Mikado463]

How about for starters we actually get tough on crime

 

[Trell]

To get back to the question posed in the thread title, as long as the SCOTUS continues to disregard the intent and wording of the 2nd amendment, in favour of blatantly partisan decisions, rational discussion will continue to be meaningless.

Recent events have exposed the "good guy with a gun" theory as nonsense.
Addressing mental health issues with treatment and ownership restrictions is just picking around the edges of the problem.
The Uvalde massacre and America’s unique gun violence problem, explained - Vox

And, from the article “If it were possible to cure all schizophrenia, bipolar, and depressive disorders, ” I will add that the life quality of the patients would increase immensely and even save many of them from suicide. That includes their family as well.

 

[GO-NAD!]

How about for starters we actually get tough on crime

The US is tough on crime. You have the highest rate of incarceration in the world. There will certainly be cases of people being released on bale/probation who really shouldn't. But, that doesn't mean the US is soft on crime.

And, amongst developed democratic countries in the world, only the US, Japan and South Korea have capital punishment.
United States incarceration rate - Wikipedia
*Although Japan and South Korea rarely use it.

 

[Trell]

The US is tough on crime. You have the highest rate of incarceration in the world.

I recall, have to look for the link, that the US incarnation rate is higher than that of the GULAGS in Soviet Union.

 

[highfigh]

To get back to the question posed in the thread title, as long as the SCOTUS continues to disregard the intent and wording of the 2nd amendment, in favour of blatantly partisan decisions, rational discussion will continue to be meaningless.

Recent events have exposed the "good guy with a gun" theory as nonsense.
Addressing mental health issues with treatment and ownership restrictions is just picking around the edges of the problem.
The Uvalde massacre and America’s unique gun violence problem, explained - Vox

But the question of "Why aren't people controlling their impulsive actions"" needs an answer. Yesterday, among all of the other craziness, a 16 year old kid in Milwaukee was shot during an argument over ten dollars. W.T.F.? Four kids 16 or under were shot this weekend, one was a 3 year old who found a gun in the house and shot himself, fatally- that's just wrong and should never happen.

I don't give a rat's a$$ which party solves the problem, I just want someone to stop pointing fingers and causing stupid political reactions. The NRA, if it wants to help, needs to get rid of LaPierre and stop trying to get people to play Army or Cowboy. The Rap industry (I won't call it a 'community' has a helluva lot to answer for by glorifying Gansta Life, gangs and drug dealing still cause a lot of deaths and then, we also have many domestic violence incidents (police often call it 'boy/girl trouble'), arguments between people who know each other and family squabbles that escalate needlessly. Those don't even get into the mental health problem, but they may be related.

The idea that a good guy with a gun is the only way to solve this is wrong in verbiage, but the theory is polluted by the use of 'only' and I think we know where this comes from- NRA, preppers and hard-right wannabes.

The political BS needs to stop. If the Democrats and Republicans in Congress can't agree on some sensible way to solve this, we need new politicians. Neither side is helping, they both care more about their party than the problems. Any thoughts that making guns harder to buy are completely ignoring the fact that criminals don't give a damn about what's illegal- they're going to do what they want and it seems that many don't even consider the possibility of consequences.

The newest legislation has a section that deals with the 'boyfriend loophole' (explained in the link) and that should help, a bit but people securing their guns would help more, if the gross numbers are considered. The number of guns stolen annually is in the tens of thousands.

You may think that talking about the mental health aspect of gun deaths is "scratching the surface", but suicides account for more deaths than any other situation.

Closing the ‘boyfriend loophole’

When President Joe Biden signed a bipartisan gun bill into law, he expanded protections for people who are at risk at th

www.politifact.com

 

[highfigh]

The US is tough on crime. You have the highest rate of incarceration in the world. There will certainly be cases of people being released on bale/probation who really shouldn't. But, that doesn't mean the US is soft on crime.

And, amongst developed democratic countries in the world, only the US, Japan and South Korea have capital punishment.
United States incarceration rate - Wikipedia
*Although Japan and South Korea rarely use it.

Not "will be", there have been many cases where the killer was out on bond or bail.

 

[highfigh]

I recall, have to look for the link, that the US incarnation rate is higher than that of the GULAGS in Soviet Union.

The incarceration rate here is extremely high and too many are in prison for non-violent crimes.

 

[panteragstk]

How about for starters we actually get tough on crime

What are all those people doing in jail if we aren't tough on crime?

 

[OHMisback]

I put it all squarely on the backs of a social dysfunctional media with HYPER everything. The only
answer is to reduce the world news to 3 stations. LOL

It worked when I was a kid.

The Kent State murders are seen as the SOP for violence. NO ONE was brought to account for the murders.

I believe in truth and justice. It has to be equal for all. THAT is the problem.

NO ONE has the right to take the life of another. NO ONE. When someone is unarmed and someone kills the
other person. There needs to be and arrest. No matter the perp. Cop or Not! You go to jail.

If you're in your home and anyone comes in, NO MATTER who they are can be shot. It could be a bear a moose or another
person, it's YOUR right to stop anyone from entering your home. Period.

No knock warrants put every Judge and person serving the warrant in jail IF there is a death. You don't get to kill
people in their own homes. EXPECT to be killed if you enter a persons home. Expect it. EVERYONE.
Hand grenades (flash bangs) outlawed NOW. ONE to many have resulted in babies being hurt, not to mention pets
and their ears. STUPID to ever let BOMBS be used on a other people.

If it's treated like a WAR people will respond in kind. This is America. We respect those that respect US.. Sorta!

It doesn't have to a catastrophic event to change the world, but it's looking more and more like it..

"The Day the Earth Stood Still" Anyone?

 

[OHMisback]

What are all those people doing in jail if we aren't tough on crime?

One guy in CA boasted 130 arrest for being a thief. Do you think he should have EVER gotten out of jail? After how many times?
3, 5, 10, 30, 50. Who is at fault? Sure not the cops they made the arrest. WHO LET HIM OUT? Wasn't me, wasn't you, who let
this guy out?

How many times do you arrest a person with a gun? That used it?

Why does the guy that smoked a joint in Oklahoma loose his right to bear arms and a guy that beats his wife with a pistol keep his?
Same state.

I've never had to use one. I've taken away 3. I prefer a knife anyways.. Better tool actually.. I can't shoot a seatbelt off. I can cut one though.
I'm was a mechanic the whole truck was a weapon, good lord... Gun hell. cannon!! LOL

Regards

 

[GO-NAD!]

But the question of "Why aren't people controlling their impulsive actions"" needs an answer. Yesterday, among all of the other craziness, a 16 year old kid in Milwaukee was shot during an argument over ten dollars. W.T.F.? Four kids 16 or under were shot this weekend, one was a 3 year old who found a gun in the house and shot himself, fatally- that's just wrong and should never happen.

It can be quite baffling to us that someone can act so impulsively and disproportionately, but it's quite explainable in many circumstances.
Opinion: The surprising solution to gun violence - CNN

I don't give a rat's a$$ which party solves the problem, I just want someone to stop pointing fingers and causing stupid political reactions. The NRA, if it wants to help, needs to get rid of LaPierre and stop trying to get people to play Army or Cowboy. The Rap industry (I won't call it a 'community' has a helluva lot to answer for by glorifying Gansta Life, gangs and drug dealing still cause a lot of deaths and then, we also have many domestic violence incidents (police often call it 'boy/girl trouble'), arguments between people who know each other and family squabbles that escalate needlessly. Those don't even get into the mental health problem, but they may be related.

The idea that a good guy with a gun is the only way to solve this is wrong in verbiage, but the theory is polluted by the use of 'only' and I think we know where this comes from- NRA, preppers and hard-right wannabes.

The political BS needs to stop. If the Democrats and Republicans in Congress can't agree on some sensible way to solve this, we need new politicians. Neither side is helping, they both care more about their party than the problems. Any thoughts that making guns harder to buy are completely ignoring the fact that criminals don't give a damn about what's illegal- they're going to do what they want and it seems that many don't even consider the possibility of consequences.

The newest legislation has a section that deals with the 'boyfriend loophole' (explained in the link) and that should help, a bit but people securing their guns would help more, if the gross numbers are considered. The number of guns stolen annually is in the tens of thousands.

Closing the ‘boyfriend loophole’

When President Joe Biden signed a bipartisan gun bill into law, he expanded protections for people who are at risk at th

www.politifact.com

Sure, the political BS needs to stop. How about not reading the 2nd amendment through a kaleidoscope and observe it with the original intent in mind. If you want to exercise your right to keep and bear arms, become a member of a "well-ordered militia", i.e. join the National Guard. Any permissions granted beyond that should be considered a privilege, not a right.

You may think that talking about the mental health aspect of gun deaths is "scratching the surface", but suicides account for more deaths than any other situation.

You're throwing out a strawman - the link I posted (I even pasted the relevant snippet) refers to violent crime, not suicide.

 

[Mikado463]

What are all those people doing in jail if we aren't tough on crime?

just #'s of people in prison does not mean we are 'tough' on crime. Perhaps if we really got tough those #'s would be less

 

[Trell]

just #'s of people in prison does not mean we are 'tough' on crime. Perhaps if we really got tough those #'s would be less

Tough on crime means that any suspect running from the police in a "routine" traffic control should die in a hail of bullets in the back with the ultimate coronary verdict: Dead due to lead poisoning? Especially if Black, unarmed (does not matter) and male?

On the other hand if a white privileged young male swimmer rapes a drunk woman it's her own fault and we should think of his future and essentially give him no sentence at all? That shitty judge was recalled, one of the good things about your legal system.

 

[Mikado463]

Trell, I'm sure you go to bed every night thankful that you don't live here in the USA ........ I know I go to bed thankful you don't !

 

[Trell]

Trell, I'm sure you go to bed every night thankful that you don't live here in the USA ........ I know I go to bed thankful you don't !

There are many places in USA I certainly would not live by choice (climate is very important to me, who want to live in a sauna or a desert, when you have snow capped mountains along beautiful fjords?), and if I where Black instead of white, even more so. If I where a billionaire living in a gated community, perhaps differently, but what a sad life style.

Let me add that I'm an atheist and I strongly believe in separation of religion from the state, both so that I can live as I want but also that is the only thing that can possibly protect freedom of religion for all as well as freedom from religion. Norway, in the part where I grew up, is very religious, and I hated it. Still does. That excludes a large part of USA, I guess, for me to live in.

 

[Trell]

In Norway and Denmark we've had mass shootings (along with elevated risk levels) the last few days so in Sweden we get news that otherwise would not cross the border.

It is however instructive to show differences in police culture: A report came to the police in a fairly small town in Norway that a man had a long rifle/firearm and was walking around. The Norwegian police, that is usually unarmed, arrived and for some reason shot a warning shot as they could not clearly see what the man was carrying. ONE warning shot. The "perp" was scared, of course, and dropped his umbrella. A total of one bullet fired by the police. What would have happened in USA in a similar situation?

 

[Dude#1279435]

Trell, I'm sure you go to bed every night thankful that you don't live here in the USA ........ I know I go to bed thankful you don't !

Minus the Clint Eastwood and Rambo guns, I like America.

 

[TLS Guy]

We are now averaging 12 mass shootings a week. Illinois made news, but a mass shooting at the stone arch bridge in Minneapolis only rates a blip on the local news. Our 16 year old grandson is living with us currently in the suburbs, because he is too scared to live in Minneapolis.

What happened over the weekend just shows the idiocy of allowing people to own guns. Being in possession of an AR 15 needs to carry a life sentence.

It really is time for another constitutional conference. I will state on record that I no longer support the US constitution, and now regard it as totally out of date.

It is time to start again. As part of the new conference, states can have the right to join the new union, or become independent counties, if they don't want to be sensible.

I am firmly of the opinion that only constitutional change will bring positive change. Instead of the right to bear arms, we need zero right to bear arms.

I am tired the refrain of more arrest of criminals and more mental health. Neither of those will stop the carnage.