Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[jinjuku]

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

No. I'm responding directly to what you typed. Someone typed 'woke' and you automatically out of all the categories brought race into the conversation.

Again you are being warned about making this a thing. If you want someone to expand on what they are getting at please do so and then go on the reciprocal. That part is 100% ok.

 

[Trell]

And how well is that working?

Which part, Schengen or weapons?

Do note that death by firearms are far lower than USA. We don’t have armed teachers either.

 

[highfigh]

Which part, Schengen or weapons?

Do note that death by firearms are far lower than USA. We don’t have armed teachers either.

Either, or both.

If they're not used for killing, how are they used?

You would have armed teachers if you had as many idiots as we do.

Generally, teachers aren't the ones who should, or want to be armed. They're usually against guns & violence, even if what they teach/promote leads to it but that also depends on location- in a place where safe gun use & handling are taught early, sure but in cities where people aren't exposed and they shake with fear as soon as they see a photo of guns, you don't want them carrying in school unless and only if they are interested, receive a lot of raining and practice frequently, so they can handle violent incidents without becoming Don Knotts as Barney Fife or The Shakiest Gun In The West.

There's no way school shootings should be easy, or even possible. In Uvalde, many people f%cked up and caused 21 deaths & terrible emotional distress. There should be no way someone can enter without the correct credentials, whether an ID card that's swiped at the door, keys, RFID fobs, I really don't care how they secure the places, I just want them secured. The largest glass panels and any glass near doors should be impenetrable, whether by impact with objects used by a shooter/burglar or from gunshots. If it requires multiple layers, so be it. Doors need to lock automatically and be unable for that to be defeated but they can't be locked from the inside because that's how people die when a fire or other incident causes people to stampede.

If you extrapolate the Swedish population and the ratio of gun deaths to people stays the same, Sweden would have had 5024 last year in the link's info is accurate (157 last year).

 

[Mikado463]

Here's a good example of another problem: poop policing and incompetent courts. Watch it all the way through for the irony...

clearly another example of LEO and judicial screw ups or was it just good old 'Southern justice' ......

 

[Dude#1279435]

Either, or both.

If they're not used for killing, how are they used?

You would have armed teachers if you had as many idiots as we do.

Generally, teachers aren't the ones who should, or want to be armed. They're usually against guns & violence, even if what they teach/promote leads to it but that also depends on location- in a place where safe gun use & handling are taught early, sure but in cities where people aren't exposed and they shake with fear as soon as they see a photo of guns, you don't want them carrying in school unless and only if they are interested, receive a lot of raining and practice frequently, so they can handle violent incidents without becoming Don Knotts as Barney Fife or The Shakiest Gun In The West.

There's no way school shootings should be easy, or even possible. In Uvalde, many people f%cked up and caused 21 deaths & terrible emotional distress. There should be no way someone can enter without the correct credentials, whether an ID card that's swiped at the door, keys, RFID fobs, I really don't care how they secure the places, I just want them secured. The largest glass panels and any glass near doors should be impenetrable, whether by impact with objects used by a shooter/burglar or from gunshots. If it requires multiple layers, so be it. Doors need to lock automatically and be unable for that to be defeated but they can't be locked from the inside because that's how people die when a fire or other incident causes people to stampede.

If you extrapolate the Swedish population and the ratio of gun deaths to people stays the same, Sweden would have had 5024 last year in the link's info is accurate (157 last year).

I doubt they can have impenetrable glass or locks because of fire code.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You are putting words into his mouth. That's not what he's getting at. Look at the shitshow that San Francisco just voted out of office.

Chesa Boudin with all the progressive, reformative, justice ideas made for an absolute disaster.

I'm going to tell you to tread lightly on the inferring someone is racist.

Going soft on criminals when there is no commensurate effort to address the social conditions that contribute to criminal behaviour was a recipe for disaster.

 

[highfigh]

I doubt they can have impenetrable glass or locks because of fire code.

Usually, the Police or Fire Dept can get keys to enter in an emergency- windows near doorways are supposed to resist breaking due to heat (it's called a 'fire corridor') but the doors MUST be openable from the inside during all situations.

 

[SithZedi]

Usually, the Police or Fire Dept can get keys to enter in an emergency- windows near doorways are supposed to resist breaking due to heat (it's called a 'fire corridor') but the doors MUST be openable from the inside during all situations.

Also, the doors must open out of the building. I remember a few horrible "disco" fires from the 1970s that had crowds trapped inside the building because the damn doors opened inwards......

 

[jinjuku]

Going soft on criminals when there is no commensurate effort to address the social conditions that contribute to criminal behaviour was a recipe for disaster.

Ok, I never said anything about that... MJ is pretty much going to be legal across the U.S in the near future. I think drugs need to be de-criminalized, not legalized, but it needs to be a health care treatment with appropriate funding and justice system support as an example.

 

[highfigh]

Ok, I never said anything about that... MJ is pretty much going to be legal across the U.S in the near future. I think drugs need to be de-criminalized, not legalized, but it needs to be a health care treatment with appropriate funding and justice system support as an example.

I don't know if you watch the news, but MJ isn't the main problem and it usually doesn't cause people to act violently, anyway- if violence is involved with pot, it's usually in dealing a larger quantity than what someone has for personal use. Crack, Meth, Coke, PCP, Opiates, Fentanyl and others are far more likely to be involved when guns come out. The non-MJ drugs I listed must not be de-criminalized- they're far too dangerous. Fentanyl and Opiates are killing far too many people to be considered for de-criminalization.

 

[highfigh]

Also, the doors must open out of the building. I remember a few horrible "disco" fires from the 1970s that had crowds trapped inside the building because the damn doors opened inwards......

The original ruling came because of movie theater and office building fires, before discos existed. Another part of it is the warning about yelling 'FIRE!" in a crowded building- people panicked, ran toward the in-swinging doors and the ones at the front died by being crushed by the crowd and asphyxiated by the pressure.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Ok, I never said anything about that... MJ is pretty much going to be legal across the U.S in the near future. I think drugs need to be de-criminalized, not legalized, but it needs to be a health care treatment with appropriate funding and justice system support as an example.

Yes, I understand that you didn't mention it. I'm just pointing out what I believe to be a contributing factor to the situation in SF.

 

[SithZedi]

The original ruling came because of movie theater and office building fires, before discos existed. Another part of it is the warning about yelling 'FIRE!" in a crowded building- people panicked, ran toward the in-swinging doors and the ones at the front died by being crushed by the crowd and asphyxiated by the pressure.

Thanks, did not realize the ruling went that far back. Friend of the family died in a Disco fire in '79 in NY. The building must not have been up to code.

 

[Mikado463]

Thanks, did not realize the ruling went that far back. Friend of the family died in a Disco fire in '79 in NY. The building must not have been up to code.

and what amazes me to this day is the number of public buildings I walk into with dbl doors and one reads 'use other door' thus only one door unlocked. When I ask someone working there I get the classic 'Millennial stare' ......

 

[GO-NAD!]

I don't know if you watch the news, but MJ isn't the main problem and it usually doesn't cause people to act violently, anyway- if violence is involved with pot, it's usually in dealing a larger quantity than what someone has for personal use. Crack, Meth, Coke, PCP, Opiates, Fentanyl and others are far more likely to be involved when guns come out. The non-MJ drugs I listed must not be de-criminalized- they're far too dangerous. Fentanyl and Opiates are killing far too many people to be considered for de-criminalization.

I don't think cannabis consumption is much of a contributing factor to criminal behaviour.

A major contributing factor is Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD). The last estimate I saw for Canada was 4% of the population affected to varying degrees, although that is considered an underestimate. For those affected by FASD, involvement with the justice system is several times higher (actual numbers vary, depending on the study) than for the general population. While I would guess that severity can depend on the quantity/frequency of consumption when pregnant, any alcohol consumption is considered unsafe.

 

[jinjuku]

I don't know if you watch the news, but MJ isn't the main problem

It's a problem from a law enforcement action perspective. You've got 1oz or more? It's intent to distribute, aka you are a drug dealer.

 

[jinjuku]

. Fentanyl and Opiates are killing far too many people to be considered for de-criminalization.

Dealing would be criminal. Using would be a health intervention.

 

[Dude#1279435]

About the only other thing I can think of greater restrictions on assault guns and high capacity mags in the *hope* that some point in the future there will be less of them around. I'm sure the NRA loves me for it.

 

[Danzilla31]

Going soft on criminals when there is no commensurate effort to address the social conditions that contribute to criminal behaviour was a recipe for disaster.

Working in mental health I've found it takes both. You have to be tough on crime and as you pointed out address mental health and social issues. Both at the same time.

There is no being soft on crime which is really an act of behavior so what we're saying really is soft on certain behaviors.

On the units I work we have to set very strict limits on certain behaviors if you don't it's just human nature for individuals to a lot of times take the easy softer way of continuing more of that behavior

The problem is once incarcerated that's when the treatment should start. That's what prison should be one giant treatment center. Classes all day: mental health treatment, job and skill training, and education, it should all of it be mandatory and the inmates are doing it all day long. Not sitting in pods with the freedom to reinforce problem behaviors with guards only running in when these behaviors spill over

In the 1990s I believe a former inmate was tasked with building a prison that would address these issues from his experience. The results were very interesting.

He designed a prison that was open to the guards at all times. Zero privacy everywhere they went. It was built as a half circle. Inmates cells showers everything was open to view by the guards. That included the kitchen and other areas inmates worked. During the day other then recreation times they were in classes all day long on job traing social training behavioral and cognitive training education. The inmates hated it but there was literally zero incidents of rape assault or other acts of violence. And the return rate of an inmate was way lower then in a traditional prison system.

The cost of these facilities was much less then a traditional prison and they required less staff to run

 

[OHMisback]

I spent a lot of time in other countries per my job. One set of island that has lot of violence but a low mass incidence considering such a "packed culture" is the Philippines. They have machine guns for sale right along with a fresh live (dead in one minute) chicken. I think you would get in more trouble THERE for selling a 2 day old chicken vs a 1 day old chicken.

I think it's over 3 to one now. Three weapons for every person and dog in that islands/country. The laws are VERY strict. Enforcement is "AS NEEDED" and if it takes a tank to confront the threat they go get a tank. Most of their copper will just kick the crap out of you. You will mind your manners. You have the right to shut up.. LOL

I saw a few people get violent behind getting loaded or something. Usually they were "stopped" by any number of locals. That culture runs from bombs, not machine guns or machetes. They just reach in their basket along with the local bread and bring out there own brand of LAW.

When justice is served it's usually not by the police, It's usually by a family member. The police just round the perpetrator (s) up. The justice served is as it should be and by whom was harmed.

Other countries target family members and property too. There is a culture of REAL justice and being a mass anything has a price beyond just the person. I think most of the problem is very simple. I'm typing on it right now. Computers and gamming are a cultural nightmare. Unfortunately gamming for kids is place for adults to act out even worse.. Then go home and take it out on a computer game.. I guess. I don't do either. A board game at Christmas, Yahtzee or Dominos maybe cards..

I found in my line of work, minding my own business and watching other mind there's worked pretty good. There was a mix up in Panama for 89 days one time, (man oh man). You could buy, vanilla, a machine gun or a switch blade at the same counter. One stand over fresh paella, ammo and condoms, go figure..

I remember when they outlawed guns in Jamaica. LOL The only people that had guns were not so nice. My company at the time quit working there. Way to much payola to do business. Good food though..

Is there an answer? Not until the Lyon lays with the sheep in peace. At this time it looks more like separating the Eloy from the Morlocks. Eat or be Eaten, I'm pretty open as to menu options for at least one season.. X-Files?