Critique my system

[shadyJ]

which sub do suggest for music only 2 channel set up?

I would suggest getting a multi-sub system. A single sub will be much more subject to the problems of low-frequency acoustics. That means an erratic frequency response and the potential for some real problems. Getting two or three (or better yet, four) decent subs with a solid baseline performance will yield a much better quality sound than one monster sub. Look at the Monolith 10" or 12", Hsu VTF-2 mk5, or Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12.

 

[Pogre]

I would suggest getting a multi-sub system. A single sub will be much more subject to the problems of low-frequency acoustics. That means an erratic frequency response and the potential for some real problems. Getting two or three (or better yet, four) decent subs with a solid baseline performance will yield a much better quality sound than one monster sub. Look at the Monolith 10" or 12", Hsu VTF-2 mk5, or Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12.

He's got room for 2.
Saving a little on processor by using his current avr.
I say splurge on a pair of 13s. Or do you think the 15 for the difference in price? I like the way the 13 looks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

(We all know that. I just wanted him to type it!)

I sure love my SV-1212NR, but I paid far less than retail for mine on the used market. To buy one new is pretty pricey, tho they do have other models too.

Passive subs is a niche market for sure since hardly anyone makes them.

There are ways of getting them at lower prices- used market like your case or dealer demo products.

RBH has different models of passive subs at different price points also.

 

[shadyJ]

He's got room for 2.
Saving a little on processor by using his current avr.
I say splurge on a pair of 13s. Or do you think the 15 for the difference in price? I like the way the 13 looks.

For the purposes of music, I don't think you could tell the difference between the 13" or 15" unless you listened to rare types of music that dig below 30Hz.

 

[bsf]

I would suggest getting a multi-sub system. A single sub will be much more subject to the problems of low-frequency acoustics. That means an erratic frequency response and the potential for some real problems. Getting two or three (or better yet, four) decent subs with a solid baseline performance will yield a much better quality sound than one monster sub. Look at the Monolith 10" or 12", Hsu VTF-2 mk5, or Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12.

I'll eventually add a sub into my 2 channel set up.
Right now I want a HT sub first. still trying to decide on that

 

[bsf]

He's got room for 2.
Saving a little on processor by using his current avr.
I say splurge on a pair of 13s. Or do you think the 15 for the difference in price? I like the way the 13 looks.

yes im liking DUAL 13" THX 2000 watt monoliths

 

[Chinaski]

This is just a great thread, and the conclusion OP reached before my post is essentially where I am, in deciding which subs to buy. I have a music focus first, movies/tv second. Rather than reinvent the subs part of this thread I would graciously like to pose my own questions that I think will contribute here, not bogart the joint (my friends) ;o)

@shadyJ wrote 3 or 4 smaller subs could be optimal for a 2.1 music room, and added multiple sealed subs for OP's space could also work well. I am a bit conflicted when I read it's best not to use multiple subs of different designs (e.g., avoid pairing ported with sealed subs in the same room.) And perhaps it's optimal to use exactly the same model of subs when you go multiples.

Which brings me to my sitch. Similarly large room as OP's, very open floorplan, well over 3000 cu.ft. adjacent to even more open rooms. In a 5.1 setup, I already have as mains sealed powered bookshelves (each with 8" driver and Bash 300s amp). Do these mains then pair better with more sealed subs, or is ported equally good? I've digested all pertinent sub reviews here and abroad (and just dig James becoming the King of Subs). Again, I love bang for the buck meets best of breed (at a specific price), so Monolith is attractive (say 4 x Monolith 12" which is me buying into the "smaller subs have huge advantages" via @shadyJ).

Four sealed? Four ported? I know the pluses and minuses of ported vs sealed, but if I seldom listened to any source over 95dB that means I returned from the pub and doubled down on even more DIPAs ;o) And I'm far more into surround bluray audio than jamming movie bits to find out how to get nails popping outta my drywall, whist rattling the neighbor's windows.

Looking to narrow down the sub recommendations, Hsu, Monolith, perhaps SVS SB-3000 in multiples? And on the SB-3000, how did it get a Stereophile Class A nod? Money talks? Is it merited? I've only experienced a few subs in my rooms over the years, the one I still own, a ported 10" from 1996 made by a/d/s (now owned by the same company who bought DefTech and Polk). Also demoed a couple ported M&Ks, and a PSA XV-15 back in '13 which killed for movies, just not my cup o' tea for tunes.

Thanks for any guidance.

 

[ryanosaur]

This is just a great thread, and the conclusion OP reached before my post is essentially where I am, in deciding which subs to buy. I have a music focus first, movies/tv second. Rather than reinvent the subs part of this thread I would graciously like to pose my own questions that I think will contribute here, not bogart the joint (my friends) ;o)

@shadyJ wrote 3 or 4 smaller subs could be optimal for a 2.1 music room, and added multiple sealed subs for OP's space could also work well. I am a bit conflicted when I read it's best not to use multiple subs of different designs (e.g., avoid pairing ported with sealed subs in the same room.) And perhaps it's optimal to use exactly the same model of subs when you go multiples.

Which brings me to my sitch. Similarly large room as OP's, very open floorplan, well over 3000 cu.ft. adjacent to even more open rooms. In a 5.1 setup, I already have as mains sealed powered bookshelves (each with 8" driver and Bash 300s amp). Do these mains then pair better with more sealed subs, or is ported equally good? I've digested all pertinent sub reviews here and abroad (and just dig James becoming the King of Subs). Again, I love bang for the buck meets best of breed (at a specific price), so Monolith is attractive (say 4 x Monolith 12" which is me buying into the "smaller subs have huge advantages" via @shadyJ).

Four sealed? Four ported? I know the pluses and minuses of ported vs sealed, but if I seldom listened to any source over 95dB that means I returned from the pub and doubled down on even more DIPAs ;o) And I'm far more into surround bluray audio than jamming movie bits to find out how to get nails popping outta my drywall, whist rattling the neighbor's windows.

Looking to narrow down the sub recommendations, Hsu, Monolith, perhaps SVS SB-3000 in multiples? And on the SB-3000, how did it get a Stereophile Class A nod? Money talks? Is it merited? I've only experienced a few subs in my rooms over the years, the one I still own, a ported 10" from 1996 made by a/d/s (now owned by the same company who bought DefTech and Polk). Also demoed a couple ported M&Ks, and a PSA XV-15 back in '13 which killed for movies, just not my cup o' tea for tunes.

Thanks for any guidance.

In an open area greater than 3000cu.ft (roughly) I would argue you should avoid Sealed Subs. Their performance will suffer from lack of Cabin Gain to help prop up that bottom end.

I've said it before and don't mind repeating myself: Using 2 high quality Ported Subs in Extended Mode for a predominantly Music focused rig has not hampered my enjoyment at all.

You should weigh your goals in terms of how much extension you want or need based on your overall program choices. The idea of Music v. HT Subs is a MYTH that needs to die.

More than anything, I would recommend you look at at least starting with two good quality Ported Subs to get you high quality Bass in your listening area. You need to be willing to place the Subs where they will perform at their best, not limit their placement to your convenience: at least keep yourself open to this! You will get much more mileage out of them if you do not hamper the acoustic performance by hiding them away. They do not need to be on show, but they should go where they actually contribute to the Bass response in-room.

 

[Pogre]

In an open area greater than 3000cu.ft (roughly) I would argue you should avoid Sealed Subs. Their performance will suffer from lack of Cabin Gain to help prop up that bottom end.

I agree. You know I'm a ported sub guy, but 3 or 4 competent sealed subs can work really well. You just need 3 or 4 of 'em for larger rooms for equal deep bass performance compared to 1 or 2 ported counterparts.

I'd just go with a pair of ported subs for a music only system myself. If appropriately sized they play just as clean as a sealed sub for music, plus you have good deep-deep bass when you need it.

 

[Pogre]

I know the pluses and minuses of ported vs sealed

There are really only a couple.

Sealed = smaller size with less deep bass extension.
Ported = larger size with more deep bass extension.

That's pretty much it man. If you have the space there's no reason not to go with ported subs.

 

[Verdinut]

There are really only a couple.

Sealed = smaller size with less deep bass extension.
Ported = larger size with more deep bass extension.

That's pretty much it man. If you have the space there's no reason not to go with ported subs.

Ported = Also more efficiency and less distortion.

 

[shadyJ]

This is just a great thread, and the conclusion OP reached before my post is essentially where I am, in deciding which subs to buy. I have a music focus first, movies/tv second. Rather than reinvent the subs part of this thread I would graciously like to pose my own questions that I think will contribute here, not bogart the joint (my friends) ;o)

@shadyJ wrote 3 or 4 smaller subs could be optimal for a 2.1 music room, and added multiple sealed subs for OP's space could also work well. I am a bit conflicted when I read it's best not to use multiple subs of different designs (e.g., avoid pairing ported with sealed subs in the same room.) And perhaps it's optimal to use exactly the same model of subs when you go multiples.

Which brings me to my sitch. Similarly large room as OP's, very open floorplan, well over 3000 cu.ft. adjacent to even more open rooms. In a 5.1 setup, I already have as mains sealed powered bookshelves (each with 8" driver and Bash 300s amp). Do these mains then pair better with more sealed subs, or is ported equally good? I've digested all pertinent sub reviews here and abroad (and just dig James becoming the King of Subs). Again, I love bang for the buck meets best of breed (at a specific price), so Monolith is attractive (say 4 x Monolith 12" which is me buying into the "smaller subs have huge advantages" via @shadyJ).

Four sealed? Four ported? I know the pluses and minuses of ported vs sealed, but if I seldom listened to any source over 95dB that means I returned from the pub and doubled down on even more DIPAs ;o) And I'm far more into surround bluray audio than jamming movie bits to find out how to get nails popping outta my drywall, whist rattling the neighbor's windows.

Looking to narrow down the sub recommendations, Hsu, Monolith, perhaps SVS SB-3000 in multiples? And on the SB-3000, how did it get a Stereophile Class A nod? Money talks? Is it merited? I've only experienced a few subs in my rooms over the years, the one I still own, a ported 10" from 1996 made by a/d/s (now owned by the same company who bought DefTech and Polk). Also demoed a couple ported M&Ks, and a PSA XV-15 back in '13 which killed for movies, just not my cup o' tea for tunes.

Thanks for any guidance.

A few answers to some of your concerns: the subs should pair with your mains just fine, regardless of ported or sealed. The only way a sub could have integration problems with your mains is if it started rolling off the high frequencies too early. In order to prevent that, make sure the high-end of the subs response extends out to at least 100Hz. Monolith, Hsu, and SVS subs all do that, and most subs in this class do. Any integration problems is far more likely going to be the fault of the speakers rather than the subs.

For your applications, I don't think sealed vs ported is going to make a big difference. It might for certain movies, but it is not going to affect any music (except for certain specific music types that are rare). The difference is simply that sealed subs don't dig as deep as ported subs. Most sealed subs in this price class will make it to 30Hz whereas the ported subs will have a strong response down to 20hz or lower. Also keep in mind that any of the ported subs were have discussed here, Hsu, Monolith, SVS, etc, all come with support for a sealed operating mode. They will have port plugs with which you can just seal the ports, and voila, you have a sealed subwoofer.

As for number of subs, yes, multiple sub systems have big qualitative advantages over single subs systems. There are a ton of resources all over the internet that goes into explanations of why, and here are just a few articles from Audioholics alone: History of Multi-Sub & Sound Field Management (SFM) for Small Room Acoustics, Early Reflections and Bass for Small Room Acoustics, and Listening Room Acoustics: Room Modes & Standing Waves Part I. If you go after a four sub system, you don't need monster subs, even if you are after big SPLs in your room. I like your idea of four Monolith 12"s, but keep in mind that will give you way more output than you will ever use. I am sure you would be fine with the 10"s if you have four of them. Keep in mind those Monolith 12"s are large and very heavy. The 10"s are a lot more manageable. The Hsu VTF-2 mk5 is also very manageable, as are the SVS subs. The Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12 should also be considered among these subs, but four of any of these would be overkill at least as far as dynamic headroom goes.

You will need to space the subs out correctly to maximize the potential for a multi-sub system to get a very flat response. That will take some doing, and it would really help to have a measurement microphone like a UMIK-1.

 

[Chinaski]

Really appreciate everyone's feedback, very helpful, especially the reading assignment!
I've spent way too much time scouring all the pertinent forums all over the web, living vicariously through other's sub experiences. One ends up absorbing the mantras, "Buy once, cry once" and "Go large, or go home" "No replacement for displacement," etc. This can cloudy up judgment. Especially for someone who is just going to buy subs sight unseen/unheard, and just live with them, unless they flat out underperform and/or become annoying to place/tweak/master all settings.

I've gathered all the measurement spreadsheets found on the web and it surprises me just how much capability exists in subs at a price half of what I paid for mine all those many years ago (adjusted 2022 price is nearly $2K, so I started looking for single subs around that mark). Is there a "Moore's Law" equivalent for subs? I have the room and budget to put almost anything in my home. I already bought into the duals recommendation, and now going to embrace the 3-4 smaller subs setup. I would love to see a Carvana-type business model for subwoofers. Enter the tower of subs, buy or rent. Delivery robots handle the moving. OK, not a moneymaker I gather. But still....cool idea.

So I've read some well respected forum posters comment about differing subs sound/tonality. One significantly preferred the "sound" of the VTF15H-MK2 over the VTF3-MK5 (even comparing the sound (not output) of the larger Hsu to a huge Seaton or similarly expensive sub). I read another preferred the sound of the Monolith 12" over similarly priced SVS and Hsu subs. I read one person loved the SVS sound (newer 3000s), called it "deep" bass. I've read Hsu are most musical (due to the Class AB amp).

I do know my 1st sub, an M&K for $850+ in 1996, gave me headaches, so I returned it. Found out the maker of my recently installed (pricey) car speakers also made two models of subs for the home, and I went to the dealer and took one home, never heard it until I hooked it up. Satisfied enough, urge to keep looking was eliminated for quite a few years (16). Not everyone is good at that last part ;o) But the self-imposed pressure of making a good decision correctly just feeds the research lust. But I digress...

Anyone wanna take a stab at describing the differences, if any, in sound/tonality of various ID sub makers? Are there signature adjectives for describing a Hsu, or SVS, or Monolith, or Rythmik, or PSA?

 

[shadyJ]

Really appreciate everyone's feedback, very helpful, especially the reading assignment!
I've spent way too much time scouring all the pertinent forums all over the web, living vicariously through other's sub experiences. One ends up absorbing the mantras, "Buy once, cry once" and "Go large, or go home" "No replacement for displacement," etc. This can cloudy up judgment. Especially for someone who is just going to buy subs sight unseen/unheard, and just live with them, unless they flat out underperform and/or become annoying to place/tweak/master all settings.

I've gathered all the measurement spreadsheets found on the web and it surprises me just how much capability exists in subs at a price half of what I paid for mine all those many years ago (adjusted 2022 price is nearly $2K, so I started looking for single subs around that mark). Is there a "Moore's Law" equivalent for subs? I have the room and budget to put almost anything in my home. I already bought into the duals recommendation, and now going to embrace the 3-4 smaller subs setup. I would love to see a Carvana-type business model for subwoofers. Enter the tower of subs, buy or rent. Delivery robots handle the moving. OK, not a moneymaker I gather. But still....cool idea.

So I've read some well respected forum posters comment about differing subs sound/tonality. One significantly preferred the "sound" of the VTF15H-MK2 over the VTF3-MK5 (even comparing the sound (not output) of the larger Hsu to a huge Seaton or similarly expensive sub). I read another preferred the sound of the Monolith 12" over similarly priced SVS and Hsu subs. I read one person loved the SVS sound (newer 3000s), called it "deep" bass. I've read Hsu are most musical (due to the Class AB amp).

I do know my 1st sub, an M&K for $850+ in 1996, gave me headaches, so I returned it. Found out the maker of my recently installed (pricey) car speakers also made two models of subs for the home, and I went to the dealer and took one home, never heard it until I hooked it up. Satisfied enough, urge to keep looking was eliminated for quite a few years (16). Not everyone is good at that last part ;o) But the self-imposed pressure of making a good decision correctly just feeds the research lust. But I digress...

Anyone wanna take a stab at describing the differences, if any, in sound/tonality of various ID sub makers? Are there signature adjectives for describing a Hsu, or SVS, or Monolith, or Rythmik, or PSA?

Many of the reports of a subwoofer brand's sound character are the results of overactive imaginations. If a sub sounds drastically different than any other sub, then there is probably something wrong with it. What differentiates the sound of one sub from another is the low-frequency extension, the shape of the frequency response, dynamic headroom, and any nonlinear distortions that crop up. None of these will be a factor in the type of systems you are proposing to get. If you get a multi-sub system and apply just a bit of EQ to tame room-mode peaks, you will have a flat response. If you get ported subs among the brands that you are considering, you will have low-frequency extension down to inaudible frequencies. And a multi-sub system from the brands you have mentioned will knock nonlinear distortion products well into inaudibility. And, of course, it will have all the headroom you would ever need. If you set up the system correctly, the bass will sound the same no matter what brand you get. Anything anyone else tells you is a sales pitch.

If I were you, I would be looking at subs that won't break your back or trip your circuit breaker. They should also ideally have some adjustability in the response, but realize that most of the response adjusting you should be doing should be from an outboard equalization processor like Audyssey or Dirac or a manual parametric EQ.

 

[Chinaski]

Many of the reports of a subwoofer brand's sound character are the results of overactive imaginations. If a sub sounds drastically different than any other sub, then there is probably something wrong with it. What differentiates the sound of one sub from another is the low-frequency extension, the shape of the frequency response, dynamic headroom, and any nonlinear distortions that crop up. None of these will be a factor in the type of systems you are proposing to get. If you get a multi-sub system and apply just a bit of EQ to tame room-mode peaks, you will have a flat response. If you get ported subs among the brands that you are considering, you will have low-frequency extension down to inaudible frequencies. And a multi-sub system from the brands you have mentioned will knock nonlinear distortion products well into inaudibility. And, of course, it will have all the headroom you would ever need. If you set up the system correctly, the bass will sound the same no matter what brand you get. Anything anyone else tells you is a sales pitch.

If I were you, I would be looking at subs that won't break your back or trip your circuit breaker. They should also ideally have some adjustability in the response, but realize that most of the response adjusting you should be doing should be from an outboard equalization processor like Audyssey or Dirac or a manual parametric EQ.

My old sub is about 70lbs. and I have the sub-walk movement down, but anything double that weight will not appease! Dang, those Mono 12s ARE 115lbs. Advice absorbed! I did speak with a couple sub makers regarding circuit overloading, they both agreed for most levels the subs are usually drawing maybe 1-2 amps, at most 3. Usually if they go higher than 4 then something is wrong and likely the amp is shorted. Thanks!

 

[bsf]

How much of an improvement is the paradigm over the monitor audio silver center and towers be?

 

[Chinaski]

<bump for OP>

 

[Pogre]

<bump>

?

Whatcha wanna know? Still looking at subwoofers? Did Shady's explanation sink in? Once you get past a certain level well built subs will sound more alike than different. We don't pick up on sonic signatures with bass the way we can with higher frequencies. Always go ported unless you just absolutely do not have the room for it. The only advantage with going sealed is smaller size. Everything else is a compromise and you're (usually) giving up deep bass extension. Them being better for music is a myth. One that had some grounding in truth back in the day before computer modeling and advances in science, but no longer applies like it used to.

 

[bsf]

?

Whatcha wanna know? Still looking at subwoofers? Did Shady's explanation sink in? Once you get past a certain level well built subs will sound more alike than different. We don't pick up on sonic signatures with bass the way we can with higher frequencies. Always go ported unless you just absolutely do not have the room for it. The only advantage with going sealed is smaller size. Everything else is a compromise and you're (usually) giving up deep bass extension. Them being better for music is a myth. One that had some grounding in truth back in the day before computer modeling and advances in science, but no longer applies like it used to.

for another idea I may have for living room
which would be better?

PB-1000 Pro Subwoofer | SVS

Ported cabinet home audio subwoofer unleashes deep, room-shaking output with accuracy and refinement.

www.svsound.com

Monolith by Monoprice M-10 V2 10in THX Certified Select 500 Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™10" THX® Certified Select 500‑Watt Powered SubwooferMassive Output. Low Distortion. THX® Certified.The Monolith™ THX® Certified Select S

www.monoprice.com

 

[shadyJ]

for another idea I may have for living room
which would be better?

PB-1000 Pro Subwoofer | SVS

Ported cabinet home audio subwoofer unleashes deep, room-shaking output with accuracy and refinement.

www.svsound.com

Monolith by Monoprice M-10 V2 10in THX Certified Select 500 Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

Monolith™ by Monoprice™10" THX® Certified Select 500‑Watt Powered SubwooferMassive Output. Low Distortion. THX® Certified.The Monolith™ THX® Certified Select S

www.monoprice.com

The Monolith 12" is undoubtedly a higher performer, but it is much heavier and larger.