Ukraine – Russia … not more of the last thread

[haraldo]

Russia wold have to use their RDS-220 Tsar bomb ( 50 million Tons) to attempt to destroy its aggressors. BUt it would have to get it here first by plane. IN a Russian test near the Artic Circle , though the bomb detonated nearly 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) above ground, the resulting shockwave stripped the island as bare and flat as a skating rink for 34 sq miles.. Onlookers saw the flash more than 600 miles (965 km) away, and felt its incredible heat within 160 miles (250 km) of Ground Zero. The bomb's gargantuan mushroom cloud climbed to just below the edge of space. BUt yes, they would flood the sky with nuke rockets at all Nato countires

As far as I heard, they now have a mach 10 capable intercontinental rocket capable of carrying nukes ....

 

[cpp]

As far as I heard, they now have a mach 10 capable intercontinental rocket capable of carrying nukes ....

that is correct. Just one of Russia's hypersonic missiles the 3M22 Zircon fly so fast and low -- at speeds of up to Mach 6 and at a low atmospheric-ballistic trajectory -- that they can penetrate traditional anti-missile defense systems. Also, Russia says it used its newest Kinzhal hypersonic missiles for the first time in Ukraine to destroy a weapons storage site in the country’s west. But lately Putin is most likely talking about the RS-28 Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile. Its NATO codename name is SS-X-30 Satan 2.

 

[haraldo]

Only 3,700 people remained in Bucha after the liberation This was stated by Mayor Anatoliy Fedoruk. In 2021, the population of Bucha was estimated at 30 thousand people.

 

[haraldo]

This is Hanna, 74. She is living in a village near Borodyanka, Kyiv region. Together with her elder sister she was hiding from the bombs in a cellar. One day her sister went out to bring some food. Russian soldiers shot her dead on the street.

 

[haraldo]

Hundreds of candle lamps were lit in Lviv to honor the memory of innocent victims of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Photo: Roman Baluk

 

[haraldo]

42nd day of the war. 42nd, with the lack of the words. 42 days of no other people's grief. One grief for all. And every death feels like the death of your loved ones.

Nina Kvasha was 23. Having a medical education, she put on a uniform and became a senior soldier, the combat medic of the 72nd separate mechanized brigade "Black Zaporozhets". Nina had no fear of the enemy and was ready to stand bravely to the end, that's why her call sign was "Amazon".
Since mid-March, the Gostomel region has been in hell. It was then, in that hell, "Amazon" died from the criminal actions of the enemy.

At these moments, the beating of our hearts slows down, but honoring the fallen heroes, we must continue to fight bravely for our freedom! Glory to the heroes!

 

[haraldo]

She has been at the forefront since 2014. And in 2022 she joined the army again. To do what she can — to save lives. Kateryna Stupnytska was a military doctor. From the beginning of the full-scale invasion, was at the epicenter of the battle, provided assistance to the wounded under enemy fire.

During the heavy battle for Makariv, Kateryna died from directly hit to of enemy missile to the medical headquarters building.

She was posthumously awarded the title of the Hero of Ukraine. Eternal memory and eternal glory to the Heroes!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Bucha. Children's camp.

Basement. All bodies are with their hands tied. All were tortured, some had their legs shot, some had 5 bullets in the heart, some got shot in the head. The Russians lived there for a month.

...

Source: Telegram channel Ukraine NOW

Someone should invite Lavrov to the scene for comments, not from his comfy office.

 

[SithZedi]

This does not look good on Mexico.
Russia's war with Ukraine made it a global pariah — but it still has friends in Mexico | CBC News

It's completely explicable to me. The multinational joint-stock company is, by its very nature, completely amoral.* There is nothing new under the sun.

Ford and the Führer | The Nation


*Just to be clear, I understand that capitalism, including incorporated businesses have contributed immensely to western prosperity. But, since the primary motivation is making money, it requires strict regulation. When those in political power are in a conflict of interest with business, such regulation tends to be woefully inadequate.

Bad corporations can certainly behave amorally, ie. Pharma companies and opioids.

Let's be realistic, the problem is bad government and leaders. What type of system(s) caused the largest wars over the last 140 years? Centralized political power, whether monarchy/dictatorships/communist systems, all running centralized command economies, with the exception of pre WW1 Germany but that was a monarchy. If someone wants to mention Eisenhower's farewell speech on the military-industrial complex I would partially agree. The main fault is with the governments for allowing companies to get too big and influencial. Think FDR didn't know about Ford's behaviour? He was the same guy who turned away ships full of Jewish refugees in WW2. That was amoral.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Bad corporations can certainly behave amorally, ie. Pharma companies and opioids.

Let's be realistic, the problem is bad government and leaders. What type of system(s) caused the largest wars over the last 140 years? Centralized political power, whether monarchy/dictatorships/communist systems, all running centralized command economies, with the exception of pre WW1 Germany but that was a monarchy. If someone wants to mention Eisenhower's farewell speech on the military-industrial complex I would partially agree. The main fault is with the governments for allowing companies to get too big and influencial. Think FDR didn't know about Ford's behaviour? He was the same guy who turned away ships full of Jewish refugees in WW2. That was amoral.

I think I alluded to what you say, when I said, "When those in political power are in a conflict of interest with business, such regulation tends to be woefully inadequate."

 

[SithZedi]

I think I alluded to what you say, when I said, "When those in political power are in a conflict of interest with business, such regulation tends to be woefully inadequate."

No doubt you did. As the old proverb goes, "the fish rots from the head down".

 

[Mr._Clark]

From the Washington Post article that kicked off this thread:

>>>So what comes next, should Putin manage to “resolve” Russia’s “problem” in Ukraine? Dugin envisions a gradual dividing of Europe into zones of German and Russian influence, with Russia very much in charge thanks to its eventual stranglehold over Germany’s resource needs. As Great Britain crumbles and Russia picks up the pieces, the empire of Eurasia will ultimately stretch, in Dugin’s words, “from Dublin to Vladisvostok.”<<<

Dmitry Medvedev in a recent Telegram post:

>>>‘The goal is for the sake of the peace of future generations of Ukrainians themselves and the opportunity to finally build an open Eurasia – from Lisbon to Vladivostok.’<<<

Everything coming out of the Russian government right now seems to be consistent with Dugin's "Eurasia" fantasy.

MSN

 

[SithZedi]

From the Washington Post article that kicked off this thread:

>>>So what comes next, should Putin manage to “resolve” Russia’s “problem” in Ukraine? Dugin envisions a gradual dividing of Europe into zones of German and Russian influence, with Russia very much in charge thanks to its eventual stranglehold over Germany’s resource needs. As Great Britain crumbles and Russia picks up the pieces, the empire of Eurasia will ultimately stretch, in Dugin’s words, “from Dublin to Vladisvostok.”<<<

Dmitry Medvedev in a recent Telegram post:

>>>‘The goal is for the sake of the peace of future generations of Ukrainians themselves and the opportunity to finally build an open Eurasia – from Lisbon to Vladivostok.’<<<

Everything coming out of the Russian government right now seems to be consistent with Dugin's "Eurasia" fantasy.

MSN

Interesting, as I read that article again and saw that quote from Medvedev. Here's where it gets squirrely for the Russians. They think that somehow they might be able to control the Chinese dragon. There is no doubt that there is an attempt to build a open Eurasia but it will be the Chinese that expect to run it. When you look at the long run tactics of the Belt and Road Initiative, securing natural resources in Africa, corrupting European and US politicians and corporations, its game on. This war, and the Western strategic bungling that is partly responsible for letting it happen, has pushed Russia & China into that alliance. The Russians think they will be the lead partner? Don't think so.

Have used this quote before, but it fits. The Russians love to use this proverb when they are feeling nationalistic. I will do them the favor of re phrasing it for today's Russia. "If you invite a Dragon to dance, it’s not the Bear who decides when the dance is over. It’s the Dragon.”

The big question though is what do we in the West do about it without risking a Nuclear scenario.

 

[Mr._Clark]

It's completely explicable to me. The multinational joint-stock company is, by its very nature, completely amoral.* There is nothing new under the sun.

Ford and the Führer | The Nation


*Just to be clear, I understand that capitalism, including incorporated businesses have contributed immensely to western prosperity. But, since the primary motivation is making money, it requires strict regulation. When those in political power are in a conflict of interest with business, such regulation tends to be woefully inadequate.

Money obviously has something to do with it, but it doesn't explain the apparent lack of judgement involved.

If your next door neighbor broke into your house, attacked you, stole half your stuff, and threatened to kill you, and then asked you to sell him your gun, would you do it?

The SIPRI data is from the State Service of Export Control of Ukraine:

Research - National reports | SIPRI

www.sipri.org

In other words, it appears to me the sales were being done with the knowledge of the Ukraine government despite the embargo that was put in place after Russia annexed Crimea.

It's entirely possible to ban exports of weapons to certain countries. The U.S. government does it. Here's an example:

>>>(l) Russia. It is the policy of the United States to deny licenses or other approvals for exports of defense articles and defense services destined for Russia, except that a license or other approval may be issued, on a case-by-case basis:
(1) For government space cooperation; and
(2) Prior to September 1, 2021, for commercial space launches.<<<

22 CFR § 126.1 - Prohibited exports, imports, and sales to or from certain countries.

www.law.cornell.edu

Penalties include fines and imprisonment:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-22/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-127

The existence of amoral corporations does not inevitably lead to large exports of weapons to Russia (the original article I posted states that after the annexation of Crimea Russia remained the second biggest market for weapons exports from Ukraine)

 

[Mr._Clark]

Have used this quote before, but it fits. The Russians love to use this proverb when they are feeling nationalistic. I will do them the favor of re phrasing it for today's Russia. "If you invite a Dragon to dance, it’s not the Bear who decides when the dance is over. It’s the Dragon.”

This reminds me of how a lawyer I knew explained litigation to clients who were considering filing a lawsuit: "It's like making love to a gorilla, it's not over until she says it's over!" (this was to disabuse clients of the notion that they could just dismiss a lawsuit if it wasn't going well).

I'm not sure if Putin will be dancing with a dragon or making love to a gorilla, but it might be unpleasant.

 

[haraldo]

 

[GO-NAD!]

Money obviously has something to do with it, but it doesn't explain the apparent lack of judgement involved.

If your next door neighbor broke into your house, attacked you, stole half your stuff, and threatened to kill you, and then asked you to sell him your gun, would you do it?

The SIPRI data is from the State Service of Export Control of Ukraine:

Research - National reports | SIPRI

www.sipri.org

In other words, it appears to me the sales were being done with the knowledge of the Ukraine government despite the embargo that was put in place after Russia annexed Crimea.

It's entirely possible to ban exports of weapons to certain countries. The U.S. government does it. Here's an example:

>>>(l) Russia. It is the policy of the United States to deny licenses or other approvals for exports of defense articles and defense services destined for Russia, except that a license or other approval may be issued, on a case-by-case basis:
(1) For government space cooperation; and
(2) Prior to September 1, 2021, for commercial space launches.<<<

22 CFR § 126.1 - Prohibited exports, imports, and sales to or from certain countries.

www.law.cornell.edu

Penalties include fines and imprisonment:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-22/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-127

The existence of amoral corporations does not inevitably lead to large exports of weapons to Russia (the original article I posted states that after the annexation of Crimea Russia remained the second biggest market for weapons exports from Ukraine)

Well, I think most reasonable people support Ukraine right now, but we can't forget that, while Ukraine was making strides towards becoming a modern liberal democracy, it was/is not nearly there. So, it can't be all that surprising that money trumps all else under such conditions. And, right up to the invasion, many/most Ukrainians were insisting that Russia would not invade. Clearly, they were just whistling in the dark.

Notwithstanding any embargo, plenty of armaments sales to Russia have happened since the seizure of Crimea, if this article can be considered reliable:
Europe dodged Russia arms embargo to sell weapons to Putin for use in Ukraine (the-sun.com)

Bottom line is, governments and big business act in a manner that is diametrically opposed to the best interests of their countries all the time.

 

[GO-NAD!]

No doubt you did. As the old proverb goes, "the fish rots from the head down".

I should have added that, a lack of regulation and enforcement does not compel a corporation to act unethically. So, while they can contribute to bad corporate behaviour, I don't agree that "the problem is bad government and leaders".

 

[highfigh]

The Russian air force has some quite capable aircraft and while they would be heavily outnumbered by combined NATO air forces, they also have the S-400 anti-aircraft missile system, which is considered to be very sophisticated. The Ukrainians have the previous generation S-300 system, which is why the Russians have been quite judicious about sending their high value aircraft into Ukrainian airspace. NATO will not be cavalier about sending $50,000,000 aircraft and highly trained pilots into Russian territory without good assurance that they will be coming back.

As for submarines, the ones NATO navies try to tail are the SSBNs* which, if the conflict stays conventional, will not be the primary concern. It will be the SSNs (likely going after NATO warships) and SSKs that will be targeting merchant shipping that will be the major concern. Today's merchant fleets are a small fraction of their size (in numbers of hulls) during WW2, but the ships are absolutely massive in size, carrying proportionately more cargo. This makes shipping much more vulnerable. Russia has about 20 Kilo-Class SSKs in service. They could do a lot of damage to merchant shipping.

*This is not a perfect science and while there are occasions when a Russian boat has been tailed from start to finish of its patrol, I doubt this happens the majority of the time.

I have to think that someone has old cargo ships that are due for the scrapyard, that could be sent in as drones, to get the attention of the Russian subs, which could allow friendlies to determine their position.

IMO, if Russia concentrates their efforts on cargo shipping, they'll be missing the big picture. They have many older subs but the real question is "How well are they trained and how willing are they to do what Putin wants them to do?".

 

[highfigh]

Someone should invite Lavrov to the scene for comments, not from his comfy office.

Preferably, while being chained to a truck and dragged.