GR Research Hot topic?

[gene]

Hi guys I have no issue sending my center to Gene for review! I had the REW data stored on my icloud and must have deleted it a while ago as I don’t pay the extra $ for additional storage. That being said I do have the center still and would pay to send it to Gene out of my pocket. I trust him and Audioholics in general and would love to see my personal feelings that it didn’t do anything validated. The graphs I had showed It did absolutely nothing but without empirical evidence I don’t want to make that claim and would love to have a professional like one of you guys do it.

If you're serious about this, we can ask James Larson to measure your modded speaker. I can then ask SVS to send him a stock unit to compare.

 

[-Jim-]

If you're serious about this, we can ask James Larson to measure your modded speaker. I can then ask SVS to send him a stock unit to compare.

Sounds like a plan is unfolding

 

[Pandaman617]

If you're serious about this, we can ask James Larson to measure your modded speaker. I can then ask SVS to send him a stock unit to compare.

I’m down for the cause Gene.

 

[Am_P]

Can Matthew Poes have a say in this?

I would happily review his gear. When this idea first came up, I sent Gene some products from his website that I said seemed most appropriate. I suspect my measurments will be a bit better than his. My stand is 6.5’ tall and if we put this stand outside I should be able to get a clean IR with no other reflections but the ground. I now have 12” anechoic wedges that I have found reduces the strength of the ground bounce. This allows the gates measurements to be clean down to 200hz and less corrupted down to 150hz. His measurments appear to be done inside at a relatively close distance with gating at 3-4ms. His measurements are very smooth below 800hz.

I am not super keen on going to his place for a number of reasons. First, I don’t know his reference and my surroundings would be unfamiliar. I couldn’t be very objective about my subjective experience. I’ve heard lots of very enjoyable systems that I knew were flawed and hears those flaws better when I could either listen under more controlled conditions or in my own space. I have a 2yr old, 7 yr old, essentially 3 jobs, my wife has a business that keeps her working a lot. If I do this, we have to pay someone to stay with my wife for the entire time I am gone to help with the kids. It’s hugely expensive. I just don’t do this kind of thing for free anymore. My time has become too valuable.

If your personal circumstances do not permit you to make such a trip, that is understandable. However, there is such a thing called the Lone Star Audio Fest that used to happen in Dallas every year (atleast before Covid hit). I see Audioholics personnel hanging out at different shows from time to time. If you guys ever happen to hit that show in the future, GR is a drive away from there.

I also found the video quite pretentious. It made a lot of presumptions about people like me without data to make such claims. He believes his reference is better than mine? Why? I have no idea how my reference compares to his. I have no idea what he had for equipment. Or a room. I professional design and treat room. I am working on some of the largest projects in the country. Multi-million dollar rooms. My own listening room isn’t done yet, but it’s my second such room. Sound mitigation, floating floor, will be fully treated. Excellent room ratios. You can’t do a room as good as mine without spending at least what I did. Without my design services or the cost of speciality materials I got at cost or donated to the project, that room was an additional $50,000. I would estimate another $10-15k in specialty materials. Retail on the acoustic treatments is around another $25k. And quite frankly I don’t think you need all that to evaluate the quality of a speaker. As Toole and Olive have noted, most typical living rooms with typical “stuff of life” are close enough to work fine. Dedicated rooms like mine need treatment specifically because they have no stuff of life in them (and because a dedicated room is going for predictable performance that meets a certain objective and requires engineered solutions to achieve that).

I don't know Matt. Do you think there's nothing you could ever possibly learn from other guys who have spent their life in industry? Is that so?

I see that Toole's name gets dropped a lot. IMO, he's just the guy who got around to writing a book first. The collective knowledge of many industry experts out there just hasn't gotten written down yet perhaps? It may differ from what Toole had to say? I might personally like to read something translated from Japanese written by the guys across the Pacific, for instance.

 

[shadyJ]

If your personal circumstances do not permit you to make such a trip, that is understandable. However, there is such a thing called the Lone Star Audio Fest that used to happen in Dallas every year (atleast before Covid hit). I see Audioholics personnel hanging out at different shows from time to time. If you guys ever happen to hit that show in the future, GR is a drive away from there.



I don't know Matt. Do you think there's nothing you could ever possibly learn from other guys who have spent their life in industry? Is that so?

I see that Toole's name gets dropped a lot. IMO, he's just the guy who got around to writing a book first. The collective knowledge of many industry experts out there just hasn't gotten written down yet perhaps? It may differ from what Toole had to say? I might personally like to read something translated from Japanese written by the guys across the Pacific, for instance.

Floyd Toole is more than just a guy who wrote a book, he, along with Sean Olive, was one of the first people to scientifically study what "sound quality" is. Their research remains some of the best toward that end. If you actually read his book, you would know it basically is a collection of his and much of the other research on the subject, and yes, that includes many Japanese sources as well.

 

[Pogre]

Sounds like Gene is gonna have an opportunity to do some testing. I'm pretty curious to see what he finds.

 

[Pogre]

I might personally like to read something translated from Japanese written by the guys across the Pacific, for instance.

Me too. In fact I'll bet most here would. Got anything translated you can share with the rest of us?

 

[Swerd]

Floyd Toole is more than just a guy who wrote a book, he, along with Sean Olive, was one of the first people to scientifically study what "sound quality" is. Their research remains some of the best toward that end. If you actually read his book, you would know it basically is a collection of his and much of the other research on the subject, and yes, that includes many Japanese sources as well.

Floyd Toole and Sean Olive are the guys who essentially invented the process of measuring listener preferences in loudspeakers by blind listening tests. They learned what features in speakers really do correlate with listener preferences of sound quality, and what doesn't. In addition, they speak and write, rather well, about what they learned. They successfully made blind listening tests of sound quality into a science. Others before them tried, but weren't nearly so successful.

When those same blind listening test methods were applied to other audio components, the results revealed that most of that gear had little or no effect on listener perceived sound quality. That's why many so-called audiophiles curse when ever they hear about Toole & Olive.

In my opinion, Danny Ritchie isn't in the same league as them.

 

[highfigh]

Re-watching Danny's video, I really hate this statement he comes out with,

"You don't come across as audiophiles, you're not there yet, your reviewing budget level gear",

It's this type of antiquated pompous attitude that put's people off this hobby, there is no budget for being a 'audiophile', all that is required is being enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and it's quality,

One of my faves is "Oh, I guess your system can't resolve the sound as well as xxxxx".

Resolve this, biatch!

 

[highfigh]

I see that Toole's name gets dropped a lot. IMO, he's just the guy who got around to writing a book first. The collective knowledge of many industry experts out there just hasn't gotten written down yet perhaps? It may differ from what Toole had to say? I might personally like to read something translated from Japanese written by the guys across the Pacific, for instance.

You obviously don't know who Dr Floyd Toole is or what he has done. He didn't "get around to writing a book first", he did the testing that needed to be done and wrote about the goals, methods and results.

It's a bit late in the game for the industry experts to not have written down that collective knowledge- EVERYTHING that is tested inside of and by the audio industry is documented because many of the results can be patented, so they're not just going to give it to their competitors.

 

[highfigh]

In my opinion, Danny Ritchie isn't in the same league as them.

From the GR website- "We offer audiophile power cords that will enhance your systems performance."

Just kill me.

I want to see oscillograms with the before/after from using their (or any other) power cords. While I can see a reason to use a shielded cord in an RF-hostile environment when medical/military equipment is used, I'm really not sure people can hear so well that these will matter in the vast majority of installations.

 

[JLB]

From the GR website- "We offer audiophile power cords that will enhance your systems performance."

Just kill me.

I want to see oscillograms with the before/after from using their (or any other) power cords. While I can see a reason to use a shielded cord in an RF-hostile environment when medical/military equipment is used, I'm really not sure people can hear so well that these will matter in the vast majority of installations.

Kills me too. I might understand if a power cable was under-designed. I can't imagine what sorts of properties a conductor requires other than higher conductance. I'm not sure why anyone would want 16ga oxygen depleted copper, instead of just going for 14ga copper which would have a higher conductance.

Typically the unit power-supply will filter any common mode noise and condition the power appropriately and hopefully not add too much of its own noise... I would expect in expensive audiophile equipment one would not rely on picking the right power-cord from a tickle trunk.

As for speaker wire, I am curious to know what properties these wires have other than the ability to conduct power. As far as Monster cables go, a number of local shops used to sell Monster, and now it is all gone.

Does it matter who writes the first book? It is the last book that counts ;-)

 

[Pogre]

Floyd Toole and Sean Olive are the guys who essentially invented the process of measuring listener preferences in loudspeakers by blind listening tests. They learned what features in speakers really do correlate with listener preferences of sound quality, and what doesn't. In addition, they speak and write, rather well, about what they learned. They successfully made blind listening tests of sound quality into a science. Others before them tried, but weren't nearly so successful.

When those same blind listening test methods were applied to other audio components, the results revealed that most of that gear had little or no effect on listener perceived sound quality. That's why many so-called audiophiles curse when ever they hear about Toole & Olive.

In my opinion, Danny Ritchie isn't in the same league as them.

You put that so much better than I would have. I whole heartedly agree.

 

[McC]

Forgive my foggy memory, but wasn't Sean Olive on the old Bass List back in the day?

 

[Am_P]

You obviously don't know who Dr Floyd Toole is or what he has done. He didn't "get around to writing a book first", he did the testing that needed to be done and wrote about the goals, methods and results.

Toole worked at Harman for around 16 years. What he managed to write down is what he studied at one company a.k.a Harman? Let's see how many other giants are out there (just to name a few).....Marantz, Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, Luxman, Focal, B&W, Elac, etc, etc, etc, etc...Their collective R&D budgets and resources would tower over whatever Harman gave to Toole. But, somehow, Toole's word is the ultimate bible around here?? Yeah, i've read his book cover to cover and he is just one guy.

 

[-Jim-]

Gents / Mods,

Can we keep on task here? This topic is about GR Research, and I thought we were making progress to get a Center Channel SVS Ultra modified by them (Danny) tested by Audioholics (James Larson, or Matthew Poes - either one would do a great job).

Instead folks are drifting off to debate Dr Floyd Toole and the rest of the industry giants.

I think it's very worthwhile to get this review / testing done in a timely manner. Don't you?

 

[Beave]

Toole worked at Harman for around 16 years. What he managed to write down is what he studied at one company a.k.a Harman? Let's see how many other giants are out there (just to name a few).....Marantz, Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, Luxman, Focal, B&W, Elac, etc, etc, etc, etc...Their collective R&D budgets and resources would tower over whatever Harman gave to Toole. But, somehow, Toole's word is the ultimate bible around here?? Yeah, i've read his book cover to cover and he is just one guy.

You read his book cover to cover but didn't know that he spent decades at the Canadian NRC (an independent research facility funded by the govt) before Harman hired him away late in his career?

In other words, most of his work was done before he went to Harman.

 

[Am_P]

I had my suspicions about a certain cattle/herd like behavior prevalent in forums. Now, this boy's saying that there is a more sinister element behind it. Why hello there...my dear sinister cattle ...bwaaaahahaha

 

[Pogre]

He sure looks like a trustworthy reputable source. Especially since he admits right off the bat his source is Danny... lol.

 

[Pogre]

I had my suspicions about a certain cattle/herd like behavior prevalent in forums.

You say as you stand there myopically chewing your cud... lol.

This herd-like behavior is nothing new. People have been believing unsubstantiated claims like Danny's, without evidence, for longer than this hobby has been around. To just believe claims with no evidence or measurements of any kind to back them up, then assert it to others is what the cattle do.

Asking for evidence is not "following the herd". Believing claims without evidence and re-asserting them to others is...