Sound United has been sold....

[Movie2099]

On digging in to this I am even more worried. Masimo was founded in Irvine California in 2011, where it is still based.

It specializes in oximetry, both in hospital and especially home monitoring. It also makes add devices for ventilators, including capnea and end tidal volume monitors. They also have a partnership and may be ownership with Newtech Inc. of Shenzhen, China.

Masimo seem to be under the impression that they can integrate home monitoring with home entertainment systems. So though far fetched, they seem to want to make your AVR do you oximetry monitoring and probably monitor your CPAP remotely, This sounds like a great business model to me. What could go wrong!

Sound United is owned by Viper corporation, and Masimo have purchased the whole works for a billion dollars. It seems Masimo have contributed a small amount of cash, but the buyout is largely leveraged by debt. I regard this as extremely ominous.

The bottom line is that Masimo do not make or design major medical devices, despite to glowing boiler plate about being leading manufacturers of medical equipment. They do not seem to be, but very much peripheral players.

Anyone see a train crash in the offing?

My guess is that Sound United got in way over their heads these last couple of years and debt increased ten-fold during the pandemic. Then they purchased Bowers and Wilkins for probably way too much. Maybe B&W sales haven't been great. The whole HDMI 2.1 debacle most likely cost them a lot to fix. They rush products to market then have to spend a bunch of money to fix over the next year.

Which bigger company is in the market to purchase a bleeding speaker and AVR company right now? Probably not many. So they probably went with the best deal and it happens to be this Masimo company.

 

[slipperybidness]

Which bigger company is in the market to purchase a bleeding speaker and AVR company right now? Probably not many. So they probably went with the best deal and it happens to be this Masimo company.

Samsung

 

[PENG]

But, but, but, MBA!

For decades, I have said that the glut of MBAs that began in the late-'70s was going to be the end of life as we knew it- once the large electronics manufacturers started stepping over the dollars to look at the nickels, the product quality, support and training went out the door.

Right, the USA and Canada keep producing MBAs, lawyers, IT specialists (mostly software types) and to some extent medical doctors and they think they are well prepare to compete/beat their competitors in the East...... who apparently have been graduating more engineers and IT graduates. Which side has the right strategy I have no idea..

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

You are 200% correct. Appliances have become a F*cking joke in build quality and reliability. My brand new house has a top of the line GE Profile Diswasher and the racks come out of the machine because they couldn't use real wheels as casters. Instead they had crappy plastic tabs that came off and melted in the heat. I had to bitch at GE for 3 months and have them come back multiple times until they fixed it and still NOT using real wheels like my mom has in her 20yo GE Profile dishwasher.

The amount of incompetent people running large corporations and handling production decisions on famed TV series is staggering. Just look at how crappy Star Trek has become, written by folks that never watched an episode of past shows in their lives.

I was just getting used to the folks at Sound United running these brands and now I hope it doesn't go the wrong way like so many buyouts in the past have in our industry.

House I bought is fairly new, now it’s only 18 years old since the new contraction. I've inherited all major appliances.
stuff had to be replaced by us: Gas Water Boiler, one of two HVAC systems (entire system: Compressor/A-Coil/Furnace)
Stuff hard to be repaired by us: Frigidaire Microwave/Hood vent, Maytag Refrigerator, MaytagWasher, Maytag Dryer, Second HVAC system, Dyson vac cleaner. Several minor plumbing repairs.
Stuff in process of repair: Frigidaire Dishwasher. Likely another repair of Refrigerator is coming up soon. The hot tub is also having issues despite extremely low usage.
All of the above is just in the last 8 years we own the house.

 

[PENG]

Hey, MEDICAL people (Physicians, Pharmacists, Nurses, etc.) are Audioholics too.

Medical-Hosptital-precision high-tech meets AUDIO.

Imagine MEDICAL + ENGINEERS involved in the company.

Good point, the new CEO (if I got that right) said "“I have long been a fan (and proud owner) of Sound United’s iconic brands and am honored to steward them through the next generation of technological evolution”

I think we may be surprised, just wait and see. If not, I can always hold my nose and switch to Yamaha, may be even Anthem (only because it is Canadian).

 

[PENG]

My guess is that Sound United got in way over their heads these last couple of years and debt increased ten-fold during the pandemic. Then they purchased Bowers and Wilkins for probably way too much. Maybe B&W sales haven't been great. The whole HDMI 2.1 debacle most likely cost them a lot to fix. They rush products to market then have to spend a bunch of money to fix over the next year.

Which bigger company is in the market to purchase a bleeding speaker and AVR company right now? Probably not many. So they probably went with the best deal and it happens to be this Masimo company.

I wonder why this kind of companies (assuming the likes of Sound United and Onkyo are Corporations) don't seem to bother trying to go Chapter 11/Bankruptcy protection first, if it is a debt triggered problem?

 

[Replicant 7]

Good point, the new CEO (if I got that right) said "“I have long been a fan (and proud owner) of Sound United’s iconic brands and am honored to steward them through the next generation of technological evolution”

I think we may be surprised, just wait and see. If not, I can always hold my nose and switch to Yamaha, may be even Anthem (only because it is Canadian).

I like Anthem AVR's except their price.

 

[TLS Guy]

I wonder why this kind of companies (assuming the likes of Sound United and Onkyo are Corporations) don't seem to bother trying to go Chapter 11/Bankruptcy protection first, if it is a debt triggered problem?

The debt has not gone away, unless their are deep Chinese pockets here.

Masimo only made a profit of 11.6 million dollars last year. It looks to me as if they have taken on a debt of close to a billion dollars over this.

I really would like to know where the Chinese partners fit into this. I suspect this is in fact a Chinese take over of Sound United basically, using Masimo as a sort of shell game purchase. As if we don't have enough Chinese junk already!

 

[PENG]

I like Anthem AVR's except their price.

I don't, but that's mainly because they are not very transparent with their product information and imo too small to have the resource to deal with the very sophisticated AVPs that have all the up to date feature. No concerns with their other products, just not AVPs and AVRs.

Prices are not not too bad for me as I am within driving distance to them so I guess at least shipping cost would be low and there won't be import duty on top. The owner's manual for the latest AVRs/AVPs are super skinny, but I guess for many users who just want to turn on the thing and never try all the features or those who would hire a professional installers, the skinnier the manual the better. So I may take a chance and grab one this Christmas.

 

[PENG]

The debt has not gone away, unless their are deep Chinese pockets here.

Masimo only made a profit of 11.6 million dollars last year. It looks to me as if they have taken on a debt of close to a billion dollars over this.

That's why I mention Chapter 11, many NA corporations got way with their debt (usually not nice for their employees) this way and end up surviving but many don't, obviously.

I really would like to know where the Chinese partners fit into this. I suspect this is in fact a Chinese take over of Sound United basically, using Masimo as a sort of shell game purchase. As if we don't have enough Chinese junk already!

That is true in many ways, but for the smaller devices such as desktop DACs, headphone amps, class D amp, they have been doing great based on those reviewed and measured by ASR. Lots of members there have been urging those small companies to start venturing into producing AVRs/AVPs.

Here's one example:

Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

It aced not just on SINAD from below 20 mW to rated output, but also SNR, FR, XT, Output 4 ohms. So for $349, it would have been a much better buy than my NAD integrated amp that I have been very happy with but paid a lot more.

Again, I know there too many Chinese junk, but there are exceptions.

 

[highfigh]

On digging in to this I am even more worried. Masimo was founded in Irvine California in 2011, where it is still based.

It specializes in oximetry, both in hospital and especially home monitoring. It also makes add devices for ventilators, including capnea and end tidal volume monitors. They also have a partnership and may be ownership with Newtech Inc. of Shenzhen, China.

Masimo seem to be under the impression that they can integrate home monitoring with home entertainment systems. So though far fetched, they seem to want to make your AVR do you oximetry monitoring and probably monitor your CPAP remotely, This sounds like a great business model to me. What could go wrong!

Sound United is owned by Viper corporation, and Masimo have purchased the whole works for a billion dollars. It seems Masimo have contributed a small amount of cash, but the buyout is largely leveraged by debt. I regard this as extremely ominous.

The bottom line is that Masimo do not make or design major medical devices, despite to glowing boiler plate about being leading manufacturers of medical equipment. They do not seem to be, but very much peripheral players.

Anyone see a train crash in the offing?

Just to minimize confusion, it's Viper Holdings Corporation.

Also, Masimo added Telehealth to its group, so maybe this means they plan to get the Denon app to work.

 

[Movie2099]

I wonder why this kind of companies (assuming the likes of Sound United and Onkyo are Corporations) don't seem to bother trying to go Chapter 11/Bankruptcy protection first, if it is a debt triggered problem?

I am no expert on Chapter 11/bankruptcy protection laws, but just totally guessing here, maybe if they went down that route they would have to liquidate assets. I'm assuming the current Sound United CEO does not want to do that. Also, with this acquisition, the current CEO of Sound United gets to continue being in charge with only reporting to the Masimo CEO.

Maybe this medical tech company has a better pipeline to chips over from china? I don't think TLS Guy is too far off speculating that maybe this whole deal might have some Chinese backers of sorts. Guess time will tell.

 

[highfigh]

Right, the USA and Canada keep producing MBAs, lawyers, IT specialists (mostly software types) and to some extent medical doctors and they think they are well prepare to compete/beat their competitors in the East...... who apparently have been graduating more engineers and IT graduates. Which side has the right strategy I have no idea..

The US is still producing engineers, but many just go for the money when they choose a major.

Who's hacking the US most often? That should tell you something. If the US can't secure their IT infrastructure in a technology that was invented here, it shows that the US isn't on top of the game.

Engineering colleges can only work with what they get and the US education system needs to step up if we're going to turn this barge around.

 

[highfigh]

I am no expert on Chapter 11/bankruptcy protection laws, but just totally guessing here, maybe if they went down that route they would have to liquidate assets. I'm assuming the current Sound United CEO does not want to do that. Also, with this acquisition, the current CEO of Sound United gets to continue being in charge with only reporting to the Masimo CEO.

Maybe this medical tech company has a better pipeline to chips over from china? I don't think TLS Guy is too far off speculating that maybe this whole deal might have some Chinese backers of sorts. Guess time will tell.

Nobody has a better line on chips from China- it has been known for a long time that they were sending defective products to the US and their main market is Chinese manufacturers. That's one huge reason the US needs to make and grow more here- we absolutely must become less dependent on outside sources.

 

[highfigh]

The debt has not gone away, unless their are deep Chinese pockets here.

Masimo only made a profit of 11.6 million dollars last year. It looks to me as if they have taken on a debt of close to a billion dollars over this.

I really would like to know where the Chinese partners fit into this. I suspect this is in fact a Chinese take over of Sound United basically, using Masimo as a sort of shell game purchase. As if we don't have enough Chinese junk already!

Yahoo Finance info for Masimo shows "Masimo held $748.4 million in cash & equivalents at the end of FY21.", and the deal is said to include cash and borrowing. Their per share price dropped close to 33% yesterday.

 

[highfigh]

One of the main guys at Sound United quit last summer and it was a shock to me. #concerned

Was it the guy on the Bullet Train video with the Power Point?

 

[highfigh]

House I bought is fairly new, only 18 years old since the new contraction. I've inherited all major appliances.
stuff had to be replaced by us: Gas Water Boiler, one of two HVAC systems (entire system: Compressor/A-Coil/Furnace)
Stuff hard to be repaired by us: Frigidaire Microwave/Hood vent, Maytag Refrigerator, MaytagWasher, Maytag Dryer, Second HVAC system, Dyson vac cleaner. Several minor plumbing repairs.
Stuff in process of repair: Frigidaire Dishwasher. Likely another repair of Refrigerator is coming up soon. The hot tub is also having issues despite extremely low usage.
All of the above is just in the last 8 years we own the house.

I have an Amana fridge- same as the GE/Maytag/Whirlpool, but there was no energy star rebate. Grrr!

Stopped working- I would hear a click, hum, then it would click again. I really didn't think it would be a major problem, so I called around and everyone told me the repair would start at $200, so I looked on YouTube for answers. They all showed the likely problem, but nobody showed how to test to verify it until I had watched an almost endless number of videos and did what it showed. The relay and what they call a 'starting device' were needed. I don't know why they can't call it a starting capacitor, but, whatever. I put the new one in and it has been working since then. Well, other than the temperature setting and recently, the left light bulb. The bulb went out recently, the main control went almost immediately after the relay went in.

My parents bought a Frigidaire in 1957 and it was still working fine when we sold the house in 2001. Let's see someone make a fridge that lasts for so long, now. I don't remember exactly when they got the first dishwasher, but we had one since the early-'60s and they only replaced it once, so that covered more than 45 years.

 

[PENG]

The US is still producing engineers, but many just go for the money when they choose a major.

No questioning about that, I was just wondering about the ratio. As you said, it has a lot to do with "money", if our potential college/U graduates think Business, Lawyer, IT software degrees increase their chance to earn a lot more....

 

[Bernie Williams]

I suspect manufacturing of the high end marantz products such as the
8805a moves to china. Not good

 

[highfigh]

No questioning about that, I was just wondering about the ratio. As you said, it has a lot to do with "money", if our potential college/U graduates think Business, Lawyer, IT software degrees increase their chance to earn a lot more....

And it depends on which areas of these fields they go into- I know some people in M&A at a major investment firm and they make a boatload of money. Not top of the heap entertainer or sports star money, but I think I could try to be comfortable with that much.

I may not remember it correctly but IIRC, a Danny DeVito or Richard Gere character who bought companies, parted them out to take the money & run had a change of mind about what they did and why. At some point, the question someone asked when the people around them became ruthless money-grubbers became "What do you make?". It became less about making money and more about an actual product.

Off-shoring was great at first, but the climate has changed so drastically and the US is in bad condition, for many reasons that people just can't admit.