$2000 Warm Amplifiers (Solved) Issue caused by Operator Ignorance :)

[PENG]

This is so puzzling, anyway needless to say I returned the A-S1100 and I kept the A-S801.

It is not puzzling at all, what it tells me (I would say "us" based on who has been posting) is that you are not one of those who get easily biased on hearsay from the internet and printed magazines, and dealers too..

Why? Why? Why? Don't l just isten to @lovinthehd and save my time and money, this feels like Deja vu

Now you know why I asked you to read the measurements I posted and asked you to "guess", that is without telling you ahead of time that based on THD+N there won't be any audible difference expected even at "low volume". If I told you based on those measurements they may sound the same to you then I would have inadvertently biased you prior to your tests.

Of course THD+N is just one factor, but I posted those 3 because I have read the full reviews of each, and they all include other measurements.

Just consider the following:

- At below 0.1% THD, it is widely accepted that it would be below the threshold of audibility to most people, even Gene (who own many high end gear and presumably knows what to listen for) has mentioned that THD of something like 0.025% would be below the level of audibility. (See his comments on the CX-A5200's elevated THD when XLR outputs were used in one of his measurements).

I defined overkill as a bigger more expensive better-built amp that won't make any difference to the sound for my setup.

Then the S1100 would be an overkill for you if your interest is "difference to the sound......for your setup". The S1100 basically will let you listen to louder level that would push it to output at near its rated level for hours without risk of shortening its life by much.

Well, the glorified/dressed-up receiver sounded the same as the "real" integrated amp in every one of my tests.

I dislike the A-S801 because of its preamp/DAC part, but it has a very good power amp section, that for practical purposes, such as in your application, is as good as those I considered real integrated amps, including the much more expensive A-S3200.

The cheaper R-N803 is just as good, actually imo a better choice because it offers some basic bass management, even YPAO (a limited basic version iirc)!!

 

[Swerd]

@qba
I finally finished reading this whole thread. I think I noticed this thread earlier, but had dismissed it. You had seemed committed to the idea that an amp can act as a tone control. I've tested different speakers to see which one sounded better when driven at low volumes, but I didn't think testing different amps at low or high power would lead to useful results.

Congrats on coming to the right conclusion, despite all the misleading YT videos you had seen .

Over the last ~30 years, there have been many expensive amp designs, many of which performed very well. Over these years, the industry hasn't improved their performance much, but they have developed new manufacturing methods, as well as some new designs (Hypex and Purifi class D amps), that cost significantly less to produce. As a result, prices for good amps continue to fall. In contrast, good sounding speakers get more and more expensive.

@ryanosaur and @lovinthehd
Kudos for patiently sticking with qba during this whole slow motion thread.

 

[PENG]

@qbs

As promised, here's a full review with measurements for the lovely A-S3200. I would bet 10:1 your will come to the same conclusion if you had substituted the A-S1100 with this $8,500 55 lbs real integrated amp. I highly doubt any dealer would loan you such an eye candy class device for a home test, unless you pay them a reasonably re-stocking fee.

Yamaha A-S3200 integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Again, if you wonder why I say this, look carefully of the measurements and you will see no reasons for it to "sound" different for the tests you have done with the A-S801 and A-S1100.

 

[qba]

Thanks for the reply PENG

It is not puzzling at all, what it tells me (I would say "us" based on who has been posting) is that you are not one of those who get easily biased on hearsay from the internet and printed magazines, and dealers too..

Now you know why I asked you to read the measurements I posted and asked you to "guess", that is without telling you ahead of time that based on THD+N there won't be any audible difference expected even at "low volume". If I told you based on those measurements they may sound the same to you then I would have inadvertently biased you prior to your tests.

Of course THD+N is just one factor, but I posted those 3 because I have read the full reviews of each, and they all include other measurements.

Just consider the following:

- At below 0.1% THD, it is widely accepted that it would be below the threshold of audibility to most people, even Gene (who own many high end gear and presumably knows what to listen for) has mentioned that THD of something like 0.025% would be below the level of audibility. (See his comments on the CX-A5200's elevated THD when XLR outputs were used in one of his measurements).

If you already knew that they will sound the same you should have told me and saved me from buying the A-S1100 lol

Let me tell you something you don't know, I was so happy with the decision of keeping the A-S801 after @lovinthehd confirmed that I wouldn't notice any differences at my listening level.

I had two expectations with the A-S1100, what if it sounds better at lower listening levels and what if it wakes up the Elacs even more like the A-S801 did after coming from the RS300? Well, then you posted your comment about how the A-S801 was glorified/dressed up receiver and the "real" integrated amp was the A-S1100, supported by all those impressive graph and a technical explanation, and what it did to me was that inserted the bug called "doubt" back into my mind lol, so I was like I need to give it a chance what if blow me away trying a hi-end 2.1 channel amp for the very first time.

I dislike the A-S801 because of its preamp/DAC part

Never try using the A-S801 DAC so for me is a none issue

for practical purposes, such as in your application, is as good as those I considered real integrated amps, including the much more expensive A-S3200.

That would be crazy for an $8000 amp to sound the same as an $800 one, but I'm not going to test it

The cheaper R-N803 is just as good, actually imo a better choice because it offers some basic bass management, even YPAO (a limited basic version iirc)!!

That is a nice feature of the R-N803, I guess in the future I could buy a miniDSP to connect it to the A-S801. I could connect a miniDSP via one of the RCA inputs, right?

 

[PENG]

If you already knew that they will sound the same you should have told me and saved me from buying the A-S1100 lol

Joking aside, I wouldn't have known.. That's because if you were Placebo/expectation prone like most people do, then you would likely have heard a difference unless if you didn't know which one was playing. That's the whole deal about sighted vs controlled DBT. You must know that by now after hanging around here for so long. And seriously, if if you said you were even considering buying the S1100, I would have said something else.

Let me tell you something you don't know, I was so happy with the decision of keeping the A-S801 after @lovinthehd confirmed that I wouldn't notice any differences at my listening level.

Sorry, wrong again! I knew you are very happy because you bought it used, for a good price. If you were to pay full price for a new one I would then feel a little sorry for you though, because you could have save money and get more value with the R-N803 or even the A-S701, but then again its you money and your happiness.

I had two expectations with the A-S1100, what if it sounds better at lower listening levels and what if it wakes up the Elacs even more like the A-S801 did after coming from the RS300? Well, then you posted your comment about how the A-S801 was glorified/dressed up receiver

Sure, but remember I qualified what I said, that it was sort of derived from AVRs, it shared the same volume control IC with their cheap AVR cousins. That is not a good volume IC either, not even as good as D+M AVR's. I should have been clear that I do respect it's very nice power amp section.

and the "real" integrated amp was the A-S1100, supported by all those impressive graph and a technical explanation, and what it did to me was that inserted the bug called "doubt" back into my mind lol, so I was like I need to give it a chance what if blow me away trying a hi-end 2.1 channel amp for the very first time.

But if you actually looked at the those graphs, and google for the source review/measurements, you would have gotten the hint, that the A-S1100 did not do any better than the A-S801 on the bench. Despite what people say about don't look at the measurements, trust your ears...the fact is, specs and measurements are much more reliable than people's ears/brains, unless we all had the same ears/brains, but we sadly, or fortunately, we don't.

Never try using the A-S801 DAC so for me is a none issue

Good for you.

That would be crazy for an $8000 amp to sound the same as an $800 one, but I'm not going to test it

Yep, that's one reason I would never tell anyone they won't hear a difference between two such amps, Placebo and expectation bias effects are real to those who are subjected to such, that's why controlled tests are needed to validate those subjective reviews. As you know, in the recent C-19 vaccine tests, some of those who received the Placebo dose actually developed similar symptoms of the side effects reported by those who received the vaccine.

That is a nice feature of the R-N803, I guess in the future I could buy a miniDSP to connect it to the A-S801. I could connect a miniDSP via one of the RCA inputs, right?

Yes you can, when you are ready, keep in mind I have one that had been used for only a few weeks and will likely let go for $100 or less.

 

[qba]

Joking aside, I wouldn't have known.. That's because if you were Placebo/expectation prone like most people do, then you would likely have heard a difference unless if you didn't know which one was playing. That's the whole deal about sighted vs controlled DBT. You must know that by now after hanging around here for so long. And seriously, if if you said you were even considering buying the S1100, I would have said something else.



Sorry, wrong again! I knew you are very happy because you bought it used, for a good price. If you were to pay full price for a new one I would then feel a little sorry for you though, because you could have save money and get more value with the R-N803 or even the A-S701, but then again its you money and your happiness.



Sure, but remember I qualified what I said, that it was sort of derived from AVRs, it shared the same volume control IC with their cheap AVR cousins. That is not a good volume IC either, not even as good as D+M AVR's. I should have been clear that I do respect it's very nice power amp section.



But if you actually looked at the those graphs, and google for the source review/measurements, you would have gotten the hint, that the A-S1100 did not do any better than the A-S801 on the bench. Despite what people say about don't look at the measurements, trust your ears...the fact is, specs and measurements are much more reliable than people's ears/brains, unless we all had the same ears/brains, but we sadly, or fortunately, we don't.



Good for you.



Yep, that's one reason I would never tell anyone they won't hear a difference between two such amps, Placebo and expectation bias effects are real to those who are subjected to such, that's why controlled tests are needed to validate those subjective reviews. As you know, in the recent C-19 vaccine tests, some of those who received the Placebo dose actually developed similar symptoms of the side effects reported by those who received the vaccine.



Yes you can, when you are ready, keep in mind I have one that had been used for only a few weeks and will likely let go for $100 or less.

Thanks for the reply PENG, I guess I missed your point I was almost sure you were telling the A-S1100 would have to make a difference but who cares, I already tried it for myself, so that is water under the bridge.

What type of miniDSP are you planning to sell? I looked at two the 2x4HD and the Flex

 

[lovinthehd]

Sometimes ya gotta try....

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the reply PENG, I guess I missed your point I was almost sure you were telling the A-S1100 would have to make a difference but who cares, I already tried it for myself, so that is water under the bridge.

What type of miniDSP are you planning to sell? I looked at two the 2x4HD and the Flex

2xHD

 

[qba]

You have an unbalanced or balanced unit?

lovinthehd is that question for me? Because I have no idea lol

 

[qba]

2xHD

2x4HD?

 

[lovinthehd]

lovinthehd is that question for me? Because I have no idea lol

2x4HD?

No, the question was a brain fart for @PENG....he has a miniDSP 2x4 HD and I completely missed "HD" and asked about previous models of the 2x4....

 

[PENG]

2x4HD?

Yes

 

[PENG]

No, the question was a brain fart for @PENG....he has a miniDSP 2x4 HD and I completely missed "HD" and asked about previous models of the 2x4....

The 2X4HD has unbalanced I/Os only. It can be FW upgraded to the DDRC to run Dirac, for $199.

I have been thinking about going that route vs buying the PC version to run with JRiver. If I go the PC route (more likely), the mini will remain useless for me.

 

[qba]

The 2X4HD has unbalanced I/Os only. It can be FW upgraded to the DDRC to run Dirac, for $199.

I have been thinking about going that route vs buying the PC version to run with JRiver. If I go the PC route (more likely), the mini will remain useless for me.

Thank you PENG, so with a $199 Upgrade is can run Dirac in my A-S801? What about the one named FLEX? Does FLEX miniDSP need to be upgraded for $199 to use Dirac?

 

[PENG]

Thank you PENG, so with a $199 Upgrade is can run Dirac in my A-S801? What about the one named FLEX? Does FLEX miniDSP need to be upgraded for $199 to use Dirac?

You are welcome. Yes the 2X4HD, with the $199 upgrade will run Dirac Live 3, and that's via FW upgrade.
Audio plug-ins: 2x4HD Dirac Live Upgrade (minidsp.com)

The Flex is something else, though I believe it is based on the 2X4HD in the core such as the same 400 MHz Sharc processor but that's just my educated guess. It does not need to be upgraded to use Dirac, you just have to buy the optional license for $199. I think the website has all the information you need.

miniDSP Flex - Pocket size 2x4 Digital Audio Processor

 

[qba]

You are welcome. Yes the 2X4HD, with the $199 upgrade will run Dirac Live 3, and that's via FW upgrade.
Audio plug-ins: 2x4HD Dirac Live Upgrade (minidsp.com)

The Flex is something else, though I believe it is based on the 2X4HD in the core such as the same 400 MHz Sharc processor but that's just my educated guess. It does not need to be upgraded to use Dirac, you just have to buy the optional license for $199. I think the website has all the information you need.

miniDSP Flex - Pocket size 2x4 Digital Audio Processor

Thank you PENG!