Best "high end" AVP

[}Fear_Inoculum{]

Which one is the best of the high end offerings, and are they really worth the extra $$$$$?

Lyngdorf
JBL Synthesis
Theta Casablanca
Monolith HTP-1
Trinnov Altitude
Anthem AVM 90
Other

JBL and Monolith might not belong on that list considering the price point of the others, but they're still fairly expensive.

Alternatively, is an all in one AVR that's on the market better than any of those listed?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, the DataSat LS10 and Denon X8500 have the best measured SINAD (103dB) and THD+N (0.0007%).

Most of them, like Trinnov, Anthem and JBL won't even measure as well as the Denon X3700.

Are they worth the money?

That depends on how much money you have.

If I had a $ 1 billion, I would say a whole set of Bryston Amps and SP4 Pre-pro is worth every penny.

Or Theta Digital Amps + Casablanca Pre-pro.

Or DataSat Pre-pro and amps.

Since I don't have a billion dollars, none of those are worth my money.

 

[Golfx]

? So the worth of a particular multichannel AVP/AVR is conveniently ranked by only its tested SINAD number? This would ignore multiple features which may increase or decrease the rank to many.


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[BMXTRIX]

? So the worth of a particular multichannel AVP/AVR is conveniently ranked by only its tested SINAD number? This would ignore multiple features which may increase or decrease the rank to many.

I don't think there is anyone who would argue this point at all. The list, as provided, is just a list that ranks based upon a single metric. It doesn't include other factors which may influence purchasing decisions.

But, then it comes back to personal preference in so many ways. So many ways that are impossible for any one person to determine for another. I can't tell what you may like in terms of aesthetics. Or if you want more weight and bulk. If you want certain connections that may not be available. Or if there is a certain set of DSP features which you hate from a specific manufacturer.

Much is the truth of speakers and most everything else as well. Some people will swear by certain amplifiers, while others will just get the cheapest thing out there and call it a day. Both will be just as happy and swear by their purchasing decisions. Both are right.

Which is better? A Porsche 911 Turbo or a Honda Odyssey? On paper, the Porsche has so much going for it... until you need to move your teenager into his college dorm or take the family on a trip across country. Same is the case here. It depends on the actual needs and use case.

 

[Pogre]

Define "better".

As far as I'm concerned as long as you have sufficient power and the features you want you're good to go. I think the more expensive boutique avp's and amp are overpriced for what they offer and don't sound any better at the core than the others.

 

[}Fear_Inoculum{]

Define "better".

As far as I'm concerned as long as you have sufficient power and the features you want you're good to go. I think the more expensive boutique avp's and amp are overpriced for what they offer and don't sound any better at the core than the others.

I should have been a bit more clear, I guess my real question is: where is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to AVP (or AVR). The point where it's simply not worth the extra money because the value/performance doesn't justify the extra cost? As well, are AVP even worth the extra cost over AVR, or is it simply not worth it?

The Anthem AVM 70 cost vs the Anthem AVM 90, was what started making me think about this. The (almost double) cost of the 90 just didn't seem justified when looking at what you get for that extra money.

 

[Cos]

I should have been a bit more clear, I guess my real question is: where is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to AVP (or AVR). The point where it's simply not worth the extra money because the value/performance doesn't justify the extra cost? As well, are AVP even worth the extra cost over AVR, or is it simply not worth it?

The Anthem AVM 70 cost vs the Anthem AVM 90, was what started making me think about this. The (almost double) cost of the 90 just didn't seem justified when looking at what you get for that extra money.

As an AVM70 owner, with a lower SINAD rating of 99, I would really like to know, would I hear the difference between my AVP vs Datasat or Denon if most of the difference falls under the audible level of human hearing?

I would be more concerned on the difference in features, number of outputs, room correction etc, that are most important to you, not .0004 vs .0007 levels of distortion you can't hear.

Not to discount SINAD, I looked at ASR before I decided to pull the trigger on my upgrade, but I think Gene said it best in one of his review videos, that people have too much a hard on for the SINAD as the end all

**Please note I used those levels as an example and they are not the actual levels of distortion LOL

 

[Golfx]

I don't think there is anyone who would argue this point at all. The list, as provided, is just a list that ranks based upon a single metric. It doesn't include other factors which may influence purchasing decisions.

But, then it comes back to personal preference in so many ways. So many ways that are impossible for any one person to determine for another. I can't tell what you may like in terms of aesthetics. Or if you want more weight and bulk. If you want certain connections that may not be available. Or if there is a certain set of DSP features which you hate from a specific manufacturer.

Much is the truth of speakers and most everything else as well. Some people will swear by certain amplifiers, while others will just get the cheapest thing out there and call it a day. Both will be just as happy and swear by their purchasing decisions. Both are right.

Which is better? A Porsche 911 Turbo or a Honda Odyssey? On paper, the Porsche has so much going for it... until you need to move your teenager into his college dorm or take the family on a trip across country. Same is the case here. It depends on the actual needs and use case.

Well said! Some of us are smitten with the need to tinker and upgrade. So we are likely to own all classes of these on our journey in this hobby.


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[panteragstk]

I think the draw for any of these would be their feature set. What feature do each of them have that set them apart from the others? Is it advanced room correction, bass management, ability to push LFE to all channels, etc.

I think those things would be MUCH more useful to look at if we could compile a feature list for all of them. I'd actually be very curious to see what they have that set them apart, because I have a feeling that a lot of them don't have a unique feature.

 

[PENG]

Not to discount SINAD, I looked at ASR before I decided to pull the trigger on my upgrade, but I think Gene said it best in one of his review videos, that people have too much a hard on for the SINAD as the end all

I think few people would look at SINAD at 1 kHz only. The AVM 70 measured almost as good as the AVR-X8500H not just in the 1 kHz test SINAD but also in IMD. Those two in direct mode will likely sound the same to 99.9% of the human population at output level from 0 to 2 V RCA.

 

[ryanosaur]

I've followed the HTP-1 Owners thread at AVS pretty much since day 1. For the least expensive of a majority of that list up top, it seems to stand up to all but maybe the Storm, Lyngdorf and Trinnov.
The JBL / Arcam / AudioControl are based on the same architecture and at least the JBL and Arcam have been buggy.
The Anthems started off buggy with the 70, but people say it is mostly working now. I've heard that the 90 is available, but last I saw, many places haven't announced it as available yet. Who can really say if a few upgraded internals and 4 discrete Subwoofer outputs is really worth the ticket?
Keep in mind the SDP 58 from JBL should be out soon too. This could be intriguing if it works.

The HTP-1 owners all seem to agree that if they were to replace theirs, the only way to go would be Trinnov and Lyngdorf.
But for some of us... that ticket is completely unrealistic.
The Custom GUI designed for the HTP-1 by PinkSoda adds a lot of value and usability features that many users appreciate and value. To the extent I've seen some say it makes the HTP-1 compete with $10K units. *Shrugs

For something that is 95% of the way there, I think the Monolith is the way most people can access the Super-processor market successfully... once they get units available again.

For the rest, it still seems a crap shoot.

 

[3db]

I agree that SINAD is far over rated. It would be nice to have one's equipment measure extremely well but all that gets one is bragging rights. "Look, my number is bigger than yours" I think its fair to say that even the poorest measuring AVR being produced in terms of sinad would still easily fall below the threshold of detectabliity by human hearing in a majority of the rooms that they are placed in. What would be more useful is coming up with a chart that correlates SINAD and background or ambient room noise together as to whether a given SINAD measurement is dectectable in a room with given ambient noise.

 

[ryanosaur]

Shopping by measurement alone is foolish. Having an understanding of where in the spectrum a unit may fall is absolutely reasonable, though. For those who choose to educate themselves, that latter strategy makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, Measurements for the sake of measurements puts the focus on the wrong area.
At the end of the day, these units should be looked at based on usability first. How they integrate with a system as a whole and how easy is it for a person to make it work... connectivity and usability. My Lady would be p!ssed if I put something in the GreatRoom that she couldn't turn on and use easily.
Sadly, with the bugs involved in so many of these units, pragmatic functionality has to be considered.

 

[Cos]

I've followed the HTP-1 Owners thread at AVS pretty much since day 1. For the least expensive of a majority of that list up top, it seems to stand up to all but maybe the Storm, Lyngdorf and Trinnov.
The JBL / Arcam / AudioControl are based on the same architecture and at least the JBL and Arcam have been buggy.
The Anthems started off buggy with the 70, but people say it is mostly working now. I've heard that the 90 is available, but last I saw, many places haven't announced it as available yet. Who can really say if a few upgraded internals and 4 discrete Subwoofer outputs is really worth the ticket?
Keep in mind the SDP 58 from JBL should be out soon too. This could be intriguing if it works.

The HTP-1 owners all seem to agree that if they were to replace theirs, the only way to go would be Trinnov and Lyngdorf.
But for some of us... that ticket is completely unrealistic.
The Custom GUI designed for the HTP-1 by PinkSoda adds a lot of value and usability features that many users appreciate and value. To the extent I've seen some say it makes the HTP-1 compete with $10K units. *Shrugs

For something that is 95% of the way there, I think the Monolith is the way most people can access the Super-processor market successfully... once they get units available again.

For the rest, it still seems a crap shoot.

For $17,000 for.a processor, I would upgrade my speakers first

 

[Golfx]

For $17,000 for.a processor, I would upgrade my speakers first

The Trinnov Altitude 16 now does 20 discrete channels with a software upgrade.

One of the most unique features is that unlike almost every other AVP/AVR brand it does not down sample hi res music to 48 hz when using room EQ simultaneously.

It is now $18000.00 plus 800.00 more if you want the microphone to do your own room optimization. It now has a setup wizard which allows for easy setup.


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[ryanosaur]

For $17,000 for.a processor, I would upgrade my speakers first

Some of those cats got lyngdorf money... Some don't. *shrugs.
Some got their endgame Speaks... Some don't.

 

[PENG]

Shopping by measurement alone is foolish.

Haha I have to fully disagree with that if meant to be a general statement. It may be valid if qualified with.. May be because I am just an engineer, to me specs, verified by measurements as long as the specs and measurements cover a wide enough range of parameters, (definitely not such SINAD measured at the output based on a 1 kHz signal) are a good way for me to base my decision on.

In addition to the basic SINAD, 1 kHz test signal test, I would also look at IMD, SNR/DR, DF, FFT, THD+N vs F. That just on the preamp/DAC side, on the power amp side I would also look at a few more test results not just the output into 8, 4 ohm 1 kHz and 20-20,000 Hz. I have not seen too many website's bench tests that provide enough information but ASR and some of AH's are probably close enough. In some rare cases, a device could have been bench tested by the top 3 or 4 sites, then it would be a good bet. For example, some Emo amps and Purifi amps might have been measured by both ASR and Stereophile. In such cases, after reading the reviews I would be comfortable to press the buy button without auditioning.

As I quoted Peter Walker a few times, he was honest enough to tell the interviewer in one of the interviews, that he had designed his amps without listening to them. And as TLSG said, that's because he's smart enough (something like that...). Coming from an electrical engineer amp designers, that is reassuring, and logical. I will not buy an hifi electronic devices that is designed by listening and tweaking period but I am comfortable to buy one that is designed by competent engineers who set the goals, design for it, confirmed the goals are met by measurements. Listening test would be just to make sure everything work, sort of like part of a quality assurance system.

 

[PENG]

For $17,000 for.a processor, I would upgrade my speakers first

Funny you say that, as I am thinking if I spend $17,000 on speakers but keep my AVR-X4700H (edit: 4400), my HT system will most likely sound better than if I replace the Denon with the Trinnov 16 and using the same speakers. My room isn't big so my 5 subs should be okay. Not a good example because the Trinnov has many features that my AVR does not have, but I guess good enough to highlight the fact that speakers do have more impact on the so called sound quality.

 

[ryanosaur]

I can neither confirm nor deny my agreement.

if you shop by measurement alone, and can’t connect half your gear… what good is it? If you can’t set it up yourself and end up needing to have a Geek come and program it for you…
These are things that matter.

I do want the best, but somewhere back in our conversation history I vaguely recall a point where you said Sinad is good enough and don’t really have to worry about it… not that it was unimportant, but just that above that threshold didn’t result in meaningful audible differences. Maybe it was discussionof Amps or the HTp1, but I want to say it was maybe in the mid 90s IIRC.

Regardless, here’s the thing. The hTP-1 works and is well liked by almost all users I’ve seen discuss it. A surprisingly large number all ditched Emo processors from the RMC1, 1L, XMC1,2… Many complained about consistently slow or broken HDMI handshakes as a major problem for them.
Who's right in claiming the better product? If you go by Amir measurements and site, you buy an RMC-1... if you go by everything else... you buy the HTP-1.

 

[PENG]

I can neither confirm nor deny my agreement.

if you shop by measurement alone, and can’t connect half your gear… what good is it? If you can’t set it up yourself and end up needing to have a Geek come and program it for you…
These are things that matter.

I do want the best, but somewhere back in our conversation history I vaguely recall a point where you said Sinad is good enough and don’t really have to worry about it… not that it was unimportant, but just that above that threshold didn’t result in meaningful audible differences. Maybe it was discussionof Amps or the HTp1, but I want to say it was maybe in the mid 90s IIRC.

Regardless, here’s the thing. The hTP-1 works and is well liked by almost all users I’ve seen discuss it. A surprisingly large number all ditched Emo processors from the RMC1, 1L, XMC1,2… Many complained about consistently slow or broken HDMI handshakes as a major problem for them.
Who's right in claiming the better product? If you go by Amir measurements and site, you buy an RMC-1... if you go by everything else... you buy the HTP-1.

Not me, I will never say SINAD is enough. I I did I would deserve losing my engineer licence (no such rule though) lol.. You must know by now I am not big on making general statements.

As far as making sure the needed features are there, yes that's a given, obviously.