$2000 Warm Amplifiers (Solved) Issue caused by Operator Ignorance :)

[highfigh]

I think I will order the overprice amazon's speaker's switch just to remove as much unbiased as I can.


Say that again! The scientific process is pretty much the only reliable tool humans have come up with to be able to consider how plausible something really is, this applies to absolutely everything.

Remember, the speaker switch can affect the sound, too. NOTHING in the signal chain leaves the signal absolutely unmolested. That's the problem with ABX testing- the majority aren't done with a high quality switching system.

Describe the room- dimensions, surfaces, draperies, window area vs wall area, door openings, irregularities....any of these can be the cause of dissatisfaction in the sound. If the room is smaller, the reflected high frequencies can reach your ears without attenuation that naturally comes from longer path lengths, hard/totally flat surfaces reflect without much attenuation or diffusion and if a room doesn't have soft surfaces at all, there's not much hope of eliminating reflections & echo. You can test this by moving furniture to locations between the speakers and the nearest walls- it might just do what you're looking for.

Simple is best.

 

[TLS Guy]

If I read Mark's post correctly, to fix room issues below 200hz, room treatments may work, but above 200hz you'd want to try to do light PEQ or replace to more neutral/accurate speakers like BMR monitors :

Philharmonic Audio

www.philharmonicaudio.com

In any case, I'd start by actually measuring your speakers in your room before making any big and expensive decisions. Measurement mics aren't too expensive and you could use free REW software

UMIK-1

The UMIK-1 is an omni-directional USB measurement calibrated microphone providing Plug & Play acoustic measurement. From speaker & room acoustic measurement to recording, this microphone provides low noise and accurate results you can rely on.

www.minidsp.com

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

Thank you for your reply. You have read it correctly, but I should expand and clarify. There has been a change in view on this to a degree, and opinion is moving to what I have long maintained.

FR errors, peaks and nulls etc below about 300 Hz and certainly 200 Hz, are determined almost exclusively, by room architecture. So the honest answer, is that without Eq it can only be solved by a new room! The worst excesses can be dealt with by equalization, but peaks respond much better than nulls. Since peaks are more objectionable than nulls this is fortunate. In fact it is probably best to leave nulls alone, so as not to overdrive the system. All this is why when we built a new home, I made darn sure my AV room had optimal acoustic dimensions. Theory, I am glad to say proved to be correct.

These irregularities in the bass can also be ameliorated by changing the position of subs. However there is now increasing evidence that Ted Jordan over half a century ago was right. He maintained that separating fundamentals form their harmonics in time and space was a bad thing. So now again people are coming to my long held view that having the subs as close as possible to the mains is a very good thing. Another view gaining ground is that if possible subs should be crossed at 40 Hz and not 80 Hz. That certainly agrees with my listening impressions and impulse data.

Now if we consider the problem above 300 Hz for sure, the problem is different, very different, and is actually almost entirely speaker and not room driven.

For a good and optimal listening experience room reflections are essential. As we have said for years, if the off axis response very closely mirrors the on axis response above the transition (baffle step) frequency out to all but the highest frequencies and the response is nice and flat, that speaker will sound excellent in most rooms.

Now the take home of this, is that room treatments are to be discouraged, as they adsorb needed reflections. In addition they skew the in room power response.

Now, equalization seldom can solve the problem. If you have a dog of a speaker with a poor response and as is usually these case in these dogs, the off axis response does not mirror the axis response well. If you use an equalizer, it will alter both the axis and off axis response to the same degree. This will not restore a good in room total power response. That definitely applies to these auto Eq programs.

As active speakers with DSP to control response and especially phase develops, understanding is improving at a fast rate.

All this I believe will lead to a quantum increase in sound quality and accuracy of music reproduction in the home, and out of it, come to that.

For the younger generation exciting times are ahead.

 

[qba]

This is going to sound very silly but even though I was advised by others to decrease the treble in the knob, I played with it before and I didn't notice any difference so I just let it be, today I took it a little bit more seriously and by turning counter-clockwise to around minus 5 on the knob, the speakers sound the way I like them again

So all this thread is nothing more than a case of operator ignorance

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the reply lovinthehd, ok maybe I should change the post to, $2000 neutral amp

I just don't want amps messing with how the Elacs sound. I have a pair now in our bedroom because I like them so much, they are paired with the Yamaha Advantage RX-A2A receiver because is connected to a TV, that HDMI receiver has similar power at least on paper to the A-S801 and the Elacs still sound warm as before, or maybe the word is no as lively.

I like to make decisions on life based on data and not on subjectivity, but this world of audiophilia is so overwhelming with all these new data, where I don't have enough time to understand their source, that I feel like a victim of a cult that is considering every none sense, as long as is presented with some level of confidence lol

It could be, but it depends on which amp you are comparing with the A-S801. No one has said all amps sound the same but if you compare the A-S801 and the R-N803 (just an example) then you are going to find it tough to tell a difference if you use the analog inputs, and use pure direct mode.

 

[qba]

The amount of power you use at low volume nearfield is going to be minimal....a coupla watts. Maybe peaks multiply by 10. Maybe 20. Perhaps tone control/eq would be a way to go. I'd use whatever is onboard the 801 first before looking to the complexity of adding something like a minidsp (altho that could also bring bass management).

Thanks for the reply lovinthehd, as usual, you are always on point. It took just a little counter-clock turn of knob called treble at around -5, and bingo it changed the sound as it was before

 

[qba]

Thanks for the reply PENG,

It could be, but it depends on which amp you are comparing with the A-S801. No one has said all amps sound the same but if you compare the A-S801 and the R-N803 (just an example) then you are going to find it tough to tell a difference if you use the analog inputs, and use pure direct mode.

For Covid and other reasons my A-S501 is still at a family member's house in Montreal and hasn't arrived in Toronto yet. So I was comparing the A-S801 with the R-S300, the 801 has double the power

 

[qba]

Have you played around with an spl calculator like this? Might help... http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Not yet but I will, thanks for the link lovinthehd

 

[qba]

It actually sounds like you are fine right now. Using Dirac can't be too hard and once you hear the improvement you'll be happy you made the effort. I've not used Dirac but anything you may have a problem with can be solved here. Many very knowledgeable and experienced people here which can make one's life easier.

Thanks warnerwh, as you can see I fixed the issue it was just me ignoring the obvious treble knob

 

[TLS Guy]

This is going to sound very silly but even though I was advised by others to decrease the treble in the knob, I played with it before and I didn't notice any difference so I just let it be, today I took it a little bit more seriously and by turning counter-clockwise to around minus 5 on the knob, the speakers sound the way I like them again

So all this thread is nothing more than a case of operator ignorance

No, you asked an important question. This has provided one of the best teaching moments we have had in a long while.

You obviously have a good ear and knew things we not optimal. You had been misled that you can correct this problem by changing amps.

So let's continue, so you can see what you did.

The controls you have will be based very closely on the tone control circuit developed by the British Engineer Peter Baxandall in 1952.

Here is a representation of the frequency adjustments your tone controls make.

If you look closely, you will see why you are happier with your rig. From your description of what you did, it will follow the first line to the right below the x-axis.

That makes it obvious why it helped correct the frequency response error I had previously measured. Now you will see it is not perfect, as it starts to reduce treble energy a little too soon, and continues it past the point where is is required. This is where a parametric equalizer would be a better solution, but I don't believe that amp has a tape monitor loop that would allow you to use one.

This post was a lucky accident as you sighted a speaker that I just happened to have done an on axis measurement on. This allowed me to be definite about the cause of your problem.

I am surprised Andrew Jones left the speaker with that problem. It is just the sort of problem that should be easy to correct with a small crossover mod. I'm pretty sure Andrew knew the problem. I would bet he was overruled by confounded marketers, who wanted the speaker to "stand out" in the showroom by giving it a little pizzazz. Unfortunately that took the shine of an otherwise excellent design. Andrew parted company with Elac not long after the release of those speakers.

I noted the problem, which is why I took the measurement. One of the discs I used to audition those speakers was an excellent Telarc recording of the Verdi requiem, under the late Robert Shaw. I wanted to check the big bass drum to asses the HSU subs. The subs did fine, but the Soprano section of the chorus were distinctly harsh and the wrong side of pleasant. I knew exactly were the problem was, and that is why I documented it with a measurement.

Please stay around, and hopefully you will enjoy your time here. You have nothing to apologize for in not knowing the exact nature of your problem and how to correct.
Last but no least, many thanks once again for creating a great teaching moment.

 

[ryanosaur]

who wanted the speaker to "stand out" in the showroom by giving it a little pizzas.

Damn! I missed Pizzas in the showroom? What day was that??? I very well might have bought ELAC if they had Pizzas that day.

(Sorry Mark, couldn't resist! )

 

[qba]

Thanks for the lengthy nd very informative reply TLS Guy I truly appreciate you taking your time.

There is no magic about this, just hard cold facts. If an amp is warm it has a frequency response error, if it is cold/harsh it has a frequency response error.

Your Elac speakers are not warm, above the average for commercial speakers of that price, but they have a flaw which you object to, and its is a frequency response error.

Ok, so anything that is not neutral is caused by a frequency response error? So when all those YouTubers talk about this speaker having musicality, and all those terminologies they use, these are all pure nonsense?.

I'm truly trying to learn from your opinion, so don't take my replies as anything more than me respectfully trying to follow what you are trying to convey.

I have been in audio for almost seventy years now, and have always designed and built my own speakers, and learned a lot in that time. My observations are exactly that of other experts.

That is amazing!

When I left our Lake home in Northern MN I took the equipment of the AV room I had built there with me, and installed it in out new home in the metro.

Now the new owners of our lake home asked me to install a system in the old theater. Since I was busy building out a new room in our home under construction, I had no time to design and build speakers for them. As it happens I selected your very speakers for the right and left speakers. They wanted to purchase form Best Buy, and after reviews and based on the reputation of the designer, I selected those Elac speakers. Unfortunately at least at that time there were no third party measurements.

When I listened to the speakers they were above average for speakers in that price range, but they did encroach on being just on the side of harsh.

Are you referring those the Elacs Uni-Fi 2.0 uf52? Because I wouldn't call it myself harsh, at least based on the way they sound to me, I know we all have different taste palettes and different ways to experience sound, so I'm not questioning how you experienced it.

I had my equipment with me, and I had time to get at least an on axis measurement.

These measurements are quasi anechoic. So you can not be overconfident of the results below about 200 Hz, but you can rely on them from 200 Hz to at least 15 KHz.

Now you will note a 3db rise between 2 KHz and 7 to 8 KHz. Now even the slightest rise in response here will make the listener reach for a warm button if there were such a thing. So in order for an amp to do what you want it would have to have dip of 3 db in the above range.

Now many have noted that a rise in FR is far more unpleasant than a dip, especially if the rise is between 2 and 5 KHz. The BBC noted this years ago, and in order to play it safe designed BBC monitors with a dip in that region. This became known as the "BBC smiley." This practice was widely adopted by many British speaker manufacturers, and some still follow the practice. It does produce a warmer more laid back sound.

So you will not change your situation by changing an amp, because no self respecting amp designer is going to release an amp with a frequency response error of that magnitude.

If you had a receiver with Eq, you could try and pull that range down 3db. Unfortunately there was a snow storm coming so time did not permit off axis measurements.
Equalization can not guarantee perfection, as it will affect the axis and off axis responses equally, which may not be what is required. That is why equalization does not always provide the results expected.

This was the response on axis of my speakers in the same room before I sold the home.

This image also contains the axial responses.

You will note that both mine and the Elac speakers have that rise at 50 Hz, and that leads me to believe it is a room interaction.

The same speakers in my new AV room, which is a bigger and optimally dimensioned does not show that 50 Hz rise.

So to cut to the chase, unless you are extraordinarily lucky to find am amp with just the right frequency response to be the inverse of your speaker aberration you will not solve your problem. You have more chance of winning the lottery.

The bottom line is that these dissatisfactions of the type your describe can be universally explained by good frequency response measurements. The combined axis and off axis FR, and the resultant in room power response is the most overriding and important determinant of the quality and character of the sound you hear. There are other determinants, but if the FR is not dead right, then that aces out other virtues. I would say, that every one truly experienced in sound reproduction would agree with that statement.

Unfortunately there are opinionated clowns not schooled in science who dredge bilge from the backs of the necks sowing endless confusion and falsehoods.

I have given you the facts.

I guess based on your measurements and years of experience, you showed me that a person that walks into this hobby, has a very small chance of buying the right product even after a lot of research like I did, because all the measurements I watched on the youtube videos about this speakers said they have a very acceptable one. So the issue is the mix of my speakers and the effect of the room but not the amp?

I'm sitting just a few feet from the speakers so I thought that was canceling a lot of the room effect.

 

[qba]

If I read Mark's post correctly, to fix room issues below 200hz, room treatments may work, but above 200hz you'd want to try to do light PEQ or replace to more neutral/accurate speakers like BMR monitors :

Philharmonic Audio

www.philharmonicaudio.com

In any case, I'd start by actually measuring your speakers in your room before making any big and expensive decisions. Measurement mics aren't too expensive and you could use free REW software

UMIK-1

The UMIK-1 is an omni-directional USB measurement calibrated microphone providing Plug & Play acoustic measurement. From speaker & room acoustic measurement to recording, this microphone provides low noise and accurate results you can rely on.

www.minidsp.com

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

Thanks for the reply BoredSysAdmin, I guess buying a miniDSP is a must if I want to see how they measure in this room.

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't know if you've noticed this article but you might find it interesting.... https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/personal-psychoacoustics

 

[ryanosaur]

So when all those YouTubers talk about this speaker having musicality, and all those terminologies they use, these are all pure nonsense?.

YES!

Some know what they are talking about, but most do not. Probably 95% are just entertainment, maybe more. This is largely no different than many major publications that endeavor to define an audiophile by the amount of gadgetry they own rather than the desire to simply have good sound reproduction which will accurately reproduce the recorded event.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the lengthy nd very informative reply TLS Guy I truly appreciate you taking your time.



Ok, so anything that is not neutral is caused by a frequency response error? So when all those YouTubers talk about this speaker having musicality, and all those terminologies they use, these are all pure nonsense?.

I'm truly trying to learn from your opinion, so don't take my replies as anything more than me respectfully trying to follow what you are trying to convey.



That is amazing!



Are you referring those the Elacs Uni-Fi 2.0 uf52? Because I wouldn't call it myself harsh, at least based on the way they sound to me, I know we all have different taste palettes and different ways to experience sound, so I'm not questioning how you experienced it.



I guess based on your measurements and years of experience, you showed me that a person that walks into this hobby, has a very small chance of buying the right product even after a lot of research like I did, because all the measurements I watched on the youtube videos about this speakers said they have a very acceptable one. So the issue is the mix of my speakers and the effect of the room but not the amp?

I'm sitting just a few feet from the speakers so I thought that was canceling a lot of the room effect.

If you look at the FR I obtained, it does not look that bad, and it far from the worst. However most are very sensitive to very small elevations in the mid band, especially from 1 to 5 KHz. Now if that had been a dip of the same magnitude in that band it would have been barely perceptible and many would find it pleasing.

The thing about interpreting FRs is knowing where they are, of what magnitude and in which direction. Elevations stick out and are far more unpleasant than dips.

It takes very little FR deviations in the mid band to spoil a speaker.

Lastly you really can not trust subjective reviews. I also take them with a huge grain of salt, unless accompanied by measurements. You should never pick a speaker based on someone's subjective review.

And that goes for me, as I would probably note and object to a problem that others would pass off. I am just very picky and particular. If you are going to get into the design of speakers you have to be. Lastly first impressions can be misleading, you have to live with speakers for a while. The late John Wright of TDL, told me that once you have a speaker close to target, live with it for two to three months before making alterations. I have found that really good advice. But then I don't have deadlines to market. But John Wright never designed a dog of a speaker. You will seldom find them on eBay, as people will just not part with them.

 

[3db]

It could be, but it depends on which amp you are comparing with the A-S801. No one has said all amps sound the same but if you compare the A-S801 and the R-N803 (just an example) then you are going to find it tough to tell a difference if you use the analog inputs, and use pure direct mode.

I'll say it then that all amps SOUND THE SAME when driving the same speaker well within the power envelope of the weakest amplifier. Anyone who claims they sound different is based on a subjective evaluation and not the results of controlled DBT.

 

[qba]

No, you asked an important question. This has provided one of the best teaching moments we have had in a long while.

You obviously have a good ear and knew things we not optimal. You had been misled that you can correct this problem by changing amps.

So let's continue, so you can see what you did.

The controls you have will be based very closely on the tone control circuit developed by the British Engineer Peter Baxandall in 1952.

Here is a representation of the frequency adjustments your tone controls make.

If you look closely, you will see why you are happier with your rig. From your description of what you did, it will follow the first line to the right below the x-axis.

That makes it obvious why it helped correct the frequency response error I had previously measured. Now you will see it is not perfect, as it starts to reduce treble energy a little too soon, and continues it past the point where is is required. This is where a parametric equalizer would be a better solution, but I don't believe that amp has a tape monitor loop that would allow you to use one.

This post was a lucky accident as you sighted a speaker that I just happened to have done an on axis measurement on. This allowed me to be definite about the cause of your problem.

I am surprised Andrew Jones left the speaker with that problem. It is just the sort of problem that should be easy to correct with a small crossover mod. I'm pretty sure Andrew knew the problem. I would bet he was overruled by confounded marketers, who wanted the speaker to "stand out" in the showroom by giving it a little pizzazz. Unfortunately that took the shine of an otherwise excellent design. Andrew parted company with Elac not long after the release of those speakers.

I noted the problem, which is why I took the measurement. One of the discs I used to audition those speakers was an excellent Telarc recording of the Verdi requiem, under the late Robert Shaw. I wanted to check the big bass drum to asses the HSU subs. The subs did fine, but the Soprano section of the chorus were distinctly harsh and the wrong side of pleasant. I knew exactly were the problem was, and that is why I documented it with a measurement.

Please stay around, and hopefully you will enjoy your time here. You have nothing to apologize for in not knowing the exact nature of your problem and how to correct.
Last but no least, many thanks once again for creating a great teaching moment.

Thanks a lot for sharing all that knowledge, I still have a lot to learn about the subject. As I mentioned earlier I have a very particular situation with my office set up where I can't have speakers at my ear leaves because I'm surrounded by my work computer's monitors, so the speakers need to be elevated over the monitors on wall stands and pointing down on me, I have done many a/b testing with various speakers on my office and I just love how the Elacs sound. This is why for me wasn't an issue to add a $2000 amp to a pair of $700 speakers. I have shared various pictures about my set up in this forum:

Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue

Guys as I think I mentioned earlier, I always posted the same questions at the same time in another forum, where they were helping me as well, so after I updated them on my new test with the Klipsch and the Harbeth, they say it would be beneficial to the members if I share the details, so here...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd certainly find better speakers than the Elacs in any case before changing amps to try and tweak their sound....

 

[qba]

Thanks for the reply lovinthehd

I'd certainly find better speakers than the Elacs in any case before changing amps to try and tweak their sound....

For my very close nearfield listening, in a situation like mine where the speakers need to be up high on wall mounts down at an angle, so they can clear the computer monitors that surround me? Now that I separated the table from the wall and the speaker could be on a regular speaker stand, they still need to be above my computer monitors down at an angle towards me, I don't even know if they sell that kind of speaker stands. I'm very happy with the way the Elacs sound, now that they sound just like they did before by turning the treble knob a bit down, but if there are speakers out there that sounds much better for more money, in my unique situation I wouldn't mind trying.

 

[Pogre]

I'd certainly find better speakers than the Elacs in any case before changing amps to try and tweak their sound....

Especially in the $2k range!