$2000 Warm Amplifiers (Solved) Issue caused by Operator Ignorance :)

[qba]

Hi,

I'm looking to buy an amplifier for around $2000, I have the Elacs Uni-Fi 2.0 UF52 paired with the Yamaha A-S801 and the subwoofer SVS SB-1000 Pro. The Yamaha A-S801 has wakened up my Elacs and now they sound more lively and clear, I'm happy with the sound but I know I would love to have an amp with similar power but a warmer and layback sound. I know there is a big debate about the topic of pairing, YouTubers talk about amp/speakers 'synergy' but I'm not sure if is real or not, but I'm for sure want to hear suggestions, buy some of them and try them at home, so I could make up my own mind.

Please don't fill up the chat with back and forward debates if amps can color sound, and change tonality or not. The reason for the post is that I want to find the answer for myself, I feel I'll love that type of sound and I will do an at-home blind A/B testing to achieve this.

I'll be buying this speaker switch but I wish it had another input, to switch the subwoofer as well.

SOLUPEAK P2 2(1)-in-1(2)-Out Amp Amplifier Speaker Switcher Selector Switch Splitter 2-Way Loudspeaker Control Combiner Box : Amazon.ca: Electronics

SOLUPEAK P2 2(1)-in-1(2)-Out Amp Amplifier Speaker Switcher Selector Switch Splitter 2-Way Loudspeaker Control Combiner Box : Amazon.ca: Electronics

www.amazon.ca

I will truly appreciate any suggestions for warm amplifiers.

Thanks in advance

Alex

 

[ryanosaur]

Do not buy electronics to EQ your Speakers. This is a fools errand.

I'm not going to preach that all amps sound alike, but for the most part, they should be neutral when used within common sense parameters.

If you want to EQ your Speakers to be Warm, then turn up the bass a little, or tune down the highs, or both to suit your taste.
Better yet, buy Speakers that match your ideal Sound profile if that's what you want to hear.

YouTubers talk about amp/speakers 'synergy' but I'm not sure if is real or not

Influencers talk a lot about nothing. People would do better to not listen to YT and all the cr@p that's out there.

 

[lovinthehd]

Synergy is one of the oldest words in silly audiophilia.....it doesn't really reflect how you might choose gear to work together on a spec basis, but keeps it open to fantasy. I'd also say don't try and find electronics to find a "warm" amp....personally out of all the amps I've had and still have (somewhere around 10 at the moment), none could be described as warm nor would I particularly like that. I want a transparent amp as much as possible, while certain loads may well affect audibility in some circumstances, if you have sufficient impedance handling and power for your application, not likely to be an audible issue no matter how hard you "shop"

 

[qba]

Do not buy electronics to EQ your Speakers. This is a fools errand.

I'm not going to preach that all amps sound alike, but for the most part, they should be neutral when used within common sense parameters.

If you want to EQ your Speakers to be Warm, then turn up the bass a little, or tune down the highs, or both to suit your taste.
Better yet, buy Speakers that match your ideal Sound profile if that's what you want to hear.

Influencers talk a lot about nothing. People would do better to not listen to YT and all the cr@p that's out there.

Thanks for the reply ryanosaur,

I think the Elacs are those speakers I want, I don't think I need to look any further for my against he wall nearfield listening, but now came the A-S801 that was supposed to be a layback warmer amp, that is different from the rest of the Yamaha lineup since it lacks the harshness on top or v curve that people mention about the Yamaha and I'm trying to avoid that, but still is a bit too 'clear' for me, I think I liked the Elacs better when they were sleeping with the under power amp lol. I could easily fix this by putter the other amp back, but I like some of the changes of the Elacs with double the power.

I'm not looking to find an amp to EQ the speakers, I'm looking for an amp that has enough power without coloring my layback speakers into the other direction, the amp didn't make the Elacs brighter per se, but now everything is sounding a little bit too clear, bordering into fatiguing, I already moved the speakers a bit away from me and is sounding more like before I have this amp, but I was wondering what if I get a real neutral amp or an amp that is warm?

 

[qba]

Synergy is one of the oldest words in silly audiophilia.....it doesn't really reflect how you might choose gear to work together on a spec basis, but keeps it open to fantasy. I'd also say don't try and find electronics to find a "warm" amp....personally out of all the amps I've had and still have (somewhere around 10 at the moment), none could be described as warm nor would I particularly like that. I want a transparent amp as much as possible, while certain loads may well affect audibility in some circumstances, if you have sufficient impedance handling and power for your application, not likely to be an audible issue no matter how hard you "shop"

Thanks for the reply lovinthehd, ok maybe I should change the post to, $2000 neutral amp

I just don't want amps messing with how the Elacs sound. I have a pair now in our bedroom because I like them so much, they are paired with the Yamaha Advantage RX-A2A receiver because is connected to a TV, that HDMI receiver has similar power at least on paper to the A-S801 and the Elacs still sound warm as before, or maybe the word is no as lively.

I like to make decisions on life based on data and not on subjectivity, but this world of audiophilia is so overwhelming with all these new data, where I don't have enough time to understand their source, that I feel like a victim of a cult that is considering every none sense, as long as is presented with some level of confidence lol

 

[lovinthehd]

You're trying to compare results with different amps with the speakers in different rooms? The rooms are very likely to be the difference....

 

[warnerwh]

Any well designed solid state amplifier should work. There have been numerous double blind tests taken by thousands of individuals over many decades and there was even an offer of $10,000.00 if anyone could prove they could hear the differences between amplifiers that were working properly and within their design limitations (power).
Your room acoustics have as much of an effect on the sound as your speakers. Most people are shocked when they add room treatment and/or DRC.

Go ahead and try a different amplifier but to avoid anticipation bias wait 2 weeks before you make ANY judgement. People's adrenaline is running when they're excited with their new toy and then they claim they hear all these incredible improvements. People are either surprised or want to argue when the results are made available showing that they couldn't tell their very expensive amp against say a Monoprice or Outlaw. However under double blind tests where you can't see which amp is playing the odds of you identifying which amp is playing is pretty much nil. Believe in science, not audiophile myths.

 

[qba]

You're trying to compare results with different amps with the speakers in different rooms? The rooms are very likely to be the difference....

Not trying to compare the two, after I set up the bedroom 2.1 channels that even have the same subwoofer as the office setup. They didn't have the same exact sound but were very similar, so there was nothing to compare, after the A-S801 arrived, the Elacs in the office became more lively and less layback.

So your point is that unless I switch amps and test if the results are the results of the amps, how do I know that the amp is responsible? Maybe the Elacs were never properly driven by the weaker amp in the office and now that I hear the difference in each room, coming from similarly powered amps, could be the room the one responsible for the change.

So I could switch the amp and if this is the case, I could put the money into a miniDSP and room correction software, rather than looking for a new amp.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

You have already a top-notch amp in S801. I do understand however to try to improve the sound. I suspect that acoustic room treatments will be more beneficial than exchanging amps.
Also SB-1000 Pro is more than just a decent sub, but depending on your room size you may want to go bigger, as the 1000 series works best in small to medium-sized rooms.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not trying to compare the two, after I set up the bedroom 2.1 channels that even have the same subwoofer as the office setup. They didn't have the same exact sound but were very similar, so there was nothing to compare, after the A-S801 arrived, the Elacs in the office became more lively and less layback.

So your point is that unless I switch amps and test if the results are the results of the amps, how do I know that the amp is responsible? Maybe the Elacs were never properly driven by the weaker amp in the office and now that I hear the difference in each room, coming from similarly powered amps, could be the room the one responsible for the change.

So I could switch the amp and if this is the case, I could put the money into a miniDSP and room correction software, rather than looking for a new amp.

Does the S801 have bass management like the Yamaha avr? That could be a basic difference in those setups aside from the room's influence. I don't think of speakers (let alone amps) in terms of lively/laid back sort of descriptions, prefer to refer to the frequency range differences. I think you're definitely overthinking the amp's role unless you're pushing it to it's limits perhaps....but these aren't the speakers for pushing limits either. I'd just keep the amps as is and maybe someday consider better speakers/subs....then worry about appropriate amplification if needed.

 

[qba]

thanks for the reply warnerwh,

Any well designed solid state amplifier should work. There have been numerous double blind tests taken by thousands of individuals over many decades and there was even an offer of $10,000.00 if anyone could prove they could hear the differences between amplifiers that were working properly and within their design limitations (power).

I think I will order the overprice amazon's speaker's switch just to remove as much unbiased as I can.

Your room acoustics have as much of an effect on the sound as your speakers. Most people are shocked when they add room treatment and/or DRC.

I could do the Dirac thing but from what I read unless you hire someone that knows you could be doing more harm than good with room acoustics.

Go ahead and try a different amplifier but to avoid anticipation bias wait 2 weeks before you make ANY judgement. People's adrenaline is running when they're excited with their new toy and then they claim they hear all these incredible improvements. People are either surprised or want to argue when the results are made available showing that they couldn't tell their very expensive amp against say a Monoprice or Outlaw. However under double blind tests where you can't see which amp is playing the odds of you identifying which amp is playing is pretty much nil. Believe in science, not audiophile myths.

Wow, that is impressive, most people couldn't notice the difference?

Believe in science, not audiophile myths.

Say that again! The scientific process is pretty much the only reliable tool humans have come up with to be able to consider how plausible something really is, this applies to absolutely everything.

 

[lovinthehd]

Keep in mind most of those amp comparison things depend on staying within the limits of the lesser amp....outside of clipping, etc.

 

[qba]

Thanks for the reply BoredSysAdmin

You have already a top-notch amp in S801.

Do you think based on the Elacs specs that amp has enough power? Because they have wakened the Elacs, but I still wonder what happens if I get something like the A-S1100? Would the Elacs sound even more 'awaken' or at 100watts per channel pushing more power won't make any difference?

I do understand however to try to improve the sound. I suspect that acoustic room treatments will be more beneficial than exchanging amps.

K, I don't even know where to start because I don't know anything about acoustic room treatments

Also SB-1000 Pro is more than just a decent sub, but depending on your room size you may want to go bigger, as the 1000 series works best in small to medium-sized rooms.

I'm good with the sub, my room is a small office, I think I posted the measurements in this forum, 10' by 12' or something like that.

 

[qba]

Thanks for the reply lovinthehd,

Does the S801 have bass management like the Yamaha avr? That could be a basic difference in those setups aside from the room's influence.

The amp doesn't have bass management.

I don't think of speakers (let alone amps) in terms of lively/laid back sort of descriptions, prefer to refer to the frequency range differences. I think you're definitely overthinking the amp's role unless you're pushing it to it's limits perhaps....but these aren't the speakers for pushing limits either.

I'm not listening too loud at all, I'm sitting only a few feet from the speakers, so don't need to be too loud, plus my goal is to listen for long hours as I work as I did with the weaker amp.

I'd just keep the amps as is and maybe someday consider better speakers/subs....then worry about appropriate amplification if needed.

So don't even bother with EQs using something like a miniDSP and room correction like Dirac?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the reply lovinthehd,


The amp doesn't have bass management.



I'm not listening too loud at all, I'm sitting only a few feet from the speakers, so don't need to be too loud, plus my goal is to listen for long hours as I work as I did with the weaker amp.



So don't even bother with EQs using something like a miniDSP and room correction like Dirac?

The amount of power you use at low volume nearfield is going to be minimal....a coupla watts. Maybe peaks multiply by 10. Maybe 20. Perhaps tone control/eq would be a way to go. I'd use whatever is onboard the 801 first before looking to the complexity of adding something like a minidsp (altho that could also bring bass management).

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you played around with an spl calculator like this? Might help... http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[warnerwh]

It actually sounds like you are fine right now. Using Dirac can't be too hard and once you hear the improvement you'll be happy you made the effort. I've not used Dirac but anything you may have a problem with can be solved here. Many very knowledgeable and experienced people here which can make one's life easier.

 

[lovinthehd]

A free option is to make sure you're setup as well as you can be for speaker positioning, sub positioning, your positioning, etc....

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi,

I'm looking to buy an amplifier for around $2000, I have the Elacs Uni-Fi 2.0 UF52 paired with the Yamaha A-S801 and the subwoofer SVS SB-1000 Pro. The Yamaha A-S801 has wakened up my Elacs and now they sound more lively and clear, I'm happy with the sound but I know I would love to have an amp with similar power but a warmer and layback sound. I know there is a big debate about the topic of pairing, YouTubers talk about amp/speakers 'synergy' but I'm not sure if is real or not, but I'm for sure want to hear suggestions, buy some of them and try them at home, so I could make up my own mind.

Please don't fill up the chat with back and forward debates if amps can color sound, and change tonality or not. The reason for the post is that I want to find the answer for myself, I feel I'll love that type of sound and I will do an at-home blind A/B testing to achieve this.

I'll be buying this speaker switch but I wish it had another input, to switch the subwoofer as well.

SOLUPEAK P2 2(1)-in-1(2)-Out Amp Amplifier Speaker Switcher Selector Switch Splitter 2-Way Loudspeaker Control Combiner Box : Amazon.ca: Electronics

SOLUPEAK P2 2(1)-in-1(2)-Out Amp Amplifier Speaker Switcher Selector Switch Splitter 2-Way Loudspeaker Control Combiner Box : Amazon.ca: Electronics

www.amazon.ca

I will truly appreciate any suggestions for warm amplifiers.

Thanks in advance

Alex

There is no magic about this, just hard cold facts. If an amp is warm it has a frequency response error, if it is cold/harsh it has a frequency response error.

Your Elac speakers are not warm, above the average for commercial speakers of that price, but they have a flaw which you object to, and its is a frequency response error.

I have been in audio for almost seventy years now, and have always designed and built my own speakers, and learned a lot in that time. My observations are exactly that of other experts.

When I left our Lake home in Northern MN I took the equipment of the AV room I had built there with me, and installed it in out new home in the metro.

Now the new owners of our lake home asked me to install a system in the old theater. Since I was busy building out a new room in our home under construction, I had no time to design and build speakers for them. As it happens I selected your very speakers for the right and left speakers. They wanted to purchase form Best Buy, and after reviews and based on the reputation of the designer, I selected those Elac speakers. Unfortunately at least at that time there were no third party measurements.

When I listened to the speakers they were above average for speakers in that price range, but they did encroach on being just on the side of harsh.

I had my equipment with me, and I had time to get at least an on axis measurement.

These measurements are quasi anechoic. So you can not be overconfident of the results below about 200 Hz, but you can rely on them from 200 Hz to at least 15 KHz.

Now you will note a 3db rise between 2 KHz and 7 to 8 KHz. Now even the slightest rise in response here will make the listener reach for a warm button if there were such a thing. So in order for an amp to do what you want it would have to have dip of 3 db in the above range.

Now many have noted that a rise in FR is far more unpleasant than a dip, especially if the rise is between 2 and 5 KHz. The BBC noted this years ago, and in order to play it safe designed BBC monitors with a dip in that region. This became known as the "BBC smiley." This practice was widely adopted by many British speaker manufacturers, and some still follow the practice. It does produce a warmer more laid back sound.

So you will not change your situation by changing an amp, because no self respecting amp designer is going to release an amp with a frequency response error of that magnitude.

If you had a receiver with Eq, you could try and pull that range down 3db. Unfortunately there was a snow storm coming so time did not permit off axis measurements.
Equalization can not guarantee perfection, as it will affect the axis and off axis responses equally, which may not be what is required. That is why equalization does not always provide the results expected.

This was the response on axis of my speakers in the same room before I sold the home.

This image also contains the axial responses.

You will note that both mine and the Elac speakers have that rise at 50 Hz, and that leads me to believe it is a room interaction.

The same speakers in my new AV room, which is a bigger and optimally dimensioned does not show that 50 Hz rise.

So to cut to the chase, unless you are extraordinarily lucky to find am amp with just the right frequency response to be the inverse of your speaker aberration you will not solve your problem. You have more chance of winning the lottery.

The bottom line is that these dissatisfactions of the type your describe can be universally explained by good frequency response measurements. The combined axis and off axis FR, and the resultant in room power response is the most overriding and important determinant of the quality and character of the sound you hear. There are other determinants, but if the FR is not dead right, then that aces out other virtues. I would say, that every one truly experienced in sound reproduction would agree with that statement.

Unfortunately there are opinionated clowns not schooled in science who dredge bilge from the backs of the necks sowing endless confusion and falsehoods.

I have given you the facts.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

If I read Mark's post correctly, to fix room issues below 200hz, room treatments may work, but above 200hz you'd want to try to do light PEQ or replace to more neutral/accurate speakers like BMR monitors :

Philharmonic Audio

www.philharmonicaudio.com

In any case, I'd start by actually measuring your speakers in your room before making any big and expensive decisions. Measurement mics aren't too expensive and you could use free REW software

UMIK-1

The UMIK-1 is an omni-directional USB measurement calibrated microphone providing Plug & Play acoustic measurement. From speaker & room acoustic measurement to recording, this microphone provides low noise and accurate results you can rely on.

www.minidsp.com

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com