Amp to Expand System

[Project SOG]

Even the Monolith would only net you a 2.0 dB advantage, the Emotiva less than that. At your listening levels why even bother with an external amp?

Because I would like to expand to 7.4.2. From what you know, What do you think will be the best way to expand?

 

[lovinthehd]

Because I would like to expand to 7.4.2. From what you know, What do you think will be the best way to expand?

Damn, forgot you had the error in format....you want 7.2.4 (really 7.1.4 in terms of channels, 7.2.4 in terms of speakers/subs).....you can add a minimal 2ch amp for surrounds/atmos or you can add significant front 3 amps is the way I tend to look at it. Depends which way you want to go....can't make up your mind for you. Although, if it were me, I'd go for more significant amps on the front three if I had to add an amp, and let the avr handle the rest.

PS or just use 5.1.4....forget what your situation is for a 7ch bed layer.

 

[Project SOG]

Damn, forgot you had the error in format....you want 7.2.4 (really 7.1.4 in terms of channels, 7.2.4 in terms of speakers/subs).....you can add a minimal 2ch amp for surrounds/atmos or you can add significant front 3 amps is the way I tend to look at it. Depends which way you want to go....can't make up your mind for you. Although, if it were me, I'd go for more significant amps on the front three if I had to add an amp, and let the avr handle the rest.

PS or just use 5.1.4....forget what your situation is for a 7ch bed layer.

Sorry I'm an idiot, I keep on messing up the format. The only reason I was considering the Emotiva 2 channel was for the surrounds but then the other option is the VTV 3x250 for the fronts. In terms of the latter option given my current situation, do you think it would be a big difference in terms of what I currently have (denon 4700)?

 

[PENG]

PENG, thank you so much for being detailed in your response and taking the time to help me.

As you can see I really don't know much about this which is the reason why I was looking at videos and reviews. I know it's not the smartest thing to do because looking at the specs is definitely a lot more valuable. The only thing I know about amps, is that higher watts equals more power but I know there's a lot more to consider that I don't know about.

I was leaning towards the monolith but it's super expensive so if the 3x250 VTV is a better option and it's cheaper then it's definitely a top pick.

To know a little more about this, which one is a better amp, the class ab or class d? If my speakers can be driven with a 200 watt amp, would the 250 watt power channel still be ok with it or no?

I have only started recommending the Hypex and Purifi amps recently. Before I purchased one of each, I spent a lot of time reading technical articles, papers on class d amps, smps, and the specs and measurements of the Hypex and Purifi modules based amps. If you asked me even just 3 months ago I would likely have recommended the Monolith.

Subjective reviews are practically useless, but I do read them for entertainment.

The AVR-X4700H is quite powerful already so I don't see much point going with the NC252MP.

I would suggest you either stick with the Denon's build in amps, or the Buckeye NC502MP or the VTV 3*NC500MP.

Buckeye amp comes with the standby switch and trigger. VTV offers them as options. I think VTV offers free trial but I assume you will have to pay for shipping if you return it.

If you want a 3 channel amp, you should go with the NC500MP. Email them for a quote for a 3 channel version with the standby switch feature, and the trigger if you need it.

If you are going to use the 4700 by itself, you should invest $20 on a couple of usb fans.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry I'm an idiot, I keep on messing up the format. The only reason I was considering the Emotiva 2 channel was for the surrounds but then the other option is the VTV 3x250 for the fronts. In terms of the latter option given my current situation, do you think it would be a big difference in terms of what I currently have (denon 4700)?

You're not an idiot, don't do that. We love you, man!

Mostly depends on your levels/expectations and those aren't necessarily particularly related either Fun, eh? I'd just use the Denon on what you mentioned, tho.

 

[Project SOG]

You're not an idiot, don't do that. We love you, man!

Mostly depends on your levels/expectations and those aren't necessarily particularly related either Fun, eh? I'd just use the Denon on what you mentioned, tho.

Oh man, thanks for being patient with me. This may seem like a silly question but I just got the denon 4700 and I'm still familiarizing myself with it, but can I extend to 7 channels without getting an external amp?

 

[Project SOG]

I have only started recommending the Hypex and Purifi amps recently. Before I purchased one of each, I spent a lot of time reading technical articles, papers on class d amps, smps, and the specs and measurements of the Hypex and Purifi modules based amps. If you asked me even just 3 months ago I would likely have recommended the Monolith.

Subjective reviews are practically useless, but I do read them for entertainment.

The AVR-X4700H is quite powerful already so I don't see much point going with the NC252MP.

I would suggest you either stick with the Denon's build in amps, or the Buckeye NC502MP or the VTV 3*NC500MP.

Buckeye amp comes with the standby switch and trigger. VTV offers them as options. I think VTV offers free trial but I assume you will have to pay for shipping if you return it.

If you want a 3 channel amp, you should go with the NC500MP. Email them for a quote for a 3 channel version with the standby switch feature, and the trigger if you need it.

If you are going to use the 4700 by itself, you should invest $20 on a couple of usb fans.

I agree with you on the subjective reviews. It's hard to decide when I don't have the facts.

From what I understand the Denon 4700 is 125 watts 2 channel driven. Right now I have 5 bed layers and 4 heights, wouldn't the 3x250 NC252MP+NC250MP make a big difference? Also the speakers I have, the BP9020 can be driven with 200 watts, what would be the reason to go as high as 500 watts? (Just asking so I can get a better understanding). And can I extend my receiver to 7.2.4 without an external amp?

 

[PENG]

I agree with you on the subjective reviews. It's hard to decide when I don't have the facts.

From what I understand the Denon 4700 is 125 watts 2 channel driven. Right now I have 5 bed layers and 4 heights, wouldn't the 3x250 NC252MP+NC250MP make a big difference? Also the speakers I have, the BP9020 can be driven with 200 watts, what would be the reason to go as high as 500 watts? (Just asking so I can get a better understanding). And can I extend my receiver to 7.2.4 without an external amp?

The NC252MP and NC250MP can drive the BP9020. The NC502MP andvNC500MP are just more cost effective so imo may as well get them for future proofing, but that's just me. Otherwise the NC502MP+NC500MP should be a good 3 channel amp for your LCR speakers.

The 4700 has 9 channel power amps so you do need a 2 channel external amp if you want to run 7.1.4.

 

[Project SOG]

The NC252MP and NC250MP can drive the BP9020. The NC502MP andvNC500MP are just more cost effective so imo may as well get them for future proofing, but that's just me. Otherwise the NC502MP+NC500MP should be a good 3 channel amp for your LCR speakers.

The 4700 has 9 channel power amps so you do need a 2 channel external amp if you want to run 7.1.4.

That makes sense on getting the external amp to run 7.2.4. The BP9020'S with the 4700 I thought they were not getting a lot of watts because it's 1 25 2 channel driven. I figured with the NC252MP and NC250MP that the wattage would be more than double and that I would see a difference in sound. Would that not be the case?

 

[lovinthehd]

At -30 listening level you mention before (assuming properly calibrated) you're not needing an external amp except for anything beyond your avr's number of amp channels....

Using the calculator snapshot you provided earlier....even changing the channel count to 2 and not considering boundaries and correcting to 125 wpc, that's still reference level of 105dB....and 30 dB below that is using only a fraction of a watt per channel.....even 20dB below is using only about a watt per channel....10dB below reference comes out to about 11 watts per channel....the speakers only use the power you ask of them with the volume dial.

At those kinds of levels you wouldn't benefit from more power....so just depends what you want to do and how much you want to spend doing it if you just need a 2ch amp to expand your surrounds or maybe power your L/R (but why leave out the center if going the latter route?).

 

[PENG]

That makes sense on getting the external amp to run 7.2.4. The BP9020'S with the 4700 I thought they were not getting a lot of watts because it's 1 25 2 channel driven. I figured with the NC252MP and NC250MP that the wattage would be more than double and that I would see a difference in sound. Would that not be the case?

That (the ACD thing) is a die hard myth!!

Numerous experts (below is one example) have written on the topic yet people continue to believe, quote and thereby spread the myth! Sorry, I am not venting to you, just can't help but feel you are one of the many "victims" of those responsible for spreading hearsay, misconception and myths.

I may not agree 100% to the following, suggested by a Yamaha product manager, but I do think he is largely correct, much more so than those who continue to emphasize the importance of the ACD ratings on the internet.

The All Channels Driven Amplifier Test Controversy | Audioholics

Patrick Hart - Former Product Manager of Yamaha

In the eighties when I was Yamaha's Product Manager the EIA was grappling with the problem of how to measure dynamic power. Dynamic power was the new term for how much power an amp could deliver and sustain for 10 milliseconds with a "down time" in between of 500 milliseconds (at full RMS power). Back then the EIA was trying to banish the old IHF "Peak Power" term which came out of the fifties and sixties and at the same time coin a new one, dynamic power, to show what a real amplifier driving a real load in the real world could really do on musical peaks. Pretty honest, huh?

Now we come back to the "true RMS" reading and it's interpretation, if you want to advertise your $400 receiver as having 100 watts RMS. To be able to say this, many companies will look to that 20 year old mandate for dynamic power and dissect it so that producing 100 watts RMS for 500 milliseconds is okay. And with multi-channel amps and the totally random nature of music or soundtrack power demands spread among so many channels, who is to say they're wrong in rating their receivers in such a way?? It does keep the amplifier's cost down to hit a consumer friendly price point - and "real world" it's still pretty honest.

Remember, these receivers are hardly ever driven so close to their limits for any extended period. Unfortunately, for the few hearing-insensitive consumers that insist on their own continued self-destruction, many manufacturers have to add a limiter.

The 180/250 W 8/4 ohm Hypex amps will only make a difference if you actually need the extra "watts. That's why to answer your question you need to use that SPL calculator. You have done that already so now you know 125 W average will get you peak spl of 102.5 dB, that's only 2.5 dB below reference level.

Now, ask yourself how often do you listen to 102.5 dB SPL? Also keep in mind 125 W average means 250 W peak so if you watch a THX movie, the 4700 can actually deliver 105.5 dB and that's full reference level!!

On the practical side, for the split seconds to even a couple seconds of such peaks the AVR likely can handle two or even three channels peaking to the same level, especially when you set the crossovers to 80 Hz or higher.

So in your case, I highly doubt you would hear a difference because a) those amps, Monolith, Buckeye, or VTV don't/won't give you double the output of the 4700 and b) doubling the output = 3 dB more spl, not more..

If the loudest spl you can tolerate for more than a minute or so it 10 dB below reference, then your AVR will only have to hit 95 dB peak SPL or 92 dB SPL average, and it would then have to output 12.5 W average. The AVR should be able to do that all day with 7 channel driven simultaneously, if well ventilated especially with help form an ext. fan.

The external amps will help taking some load off the AVR so it may run a little cooler, but you can achieve the same or more simply by using some quiet USB powered fans.

If you do add the amps regardless, you initially will likely hear a difference. That happens to many people including me, and it is a good thing because if you spent the money you should hear a difference (better of course) and you deserve the added happiness. Reality is, you really hear the difference because.......

Would I still go for the amp, of course, but that's me, I really like amps, preamps, dacs et......

 

[PENG]

At -30 listening level you mention before (assuming properly calibrated) you're not needing an external amp except for anything beyond your avr's number of amp channels....

Using the calculator snapshot you provided earlier....even changing the channel count to 2 and not considering boundaries and correcting to 125 wpc, that's still reference level of 105dB....and 30 dB below that is using only a fraction of a watt per channel.....even 20dB below is using only about a watt per channel....10dB below reference comes out to about 11 watts per channel....the speakers only use the power you ask of them with the volume dial.

At those kinds of levels you wouldn't benefit from more power....so just depends what you want to do and how much you want to spend doing it if you just need a 2ch amp to expand your surrounds or maybe power your L/R (but why leave out the center if going the latter route?).

We might have been typing at the same time. You beat me to it by keeping it short and sweet lol..

 

[Project SOG]

At -30 listening level you mention before (assuming properly calibrated) you're not needing an external amp except for anything beyond your avr's number of amp channels....

Using the calculator snapshot you provided earlier....even changing the channel count to 2 and not considering boundaries and correcting to 125 wpc, that's still reference level of 105dB....and 30 dB below that is using only a fraction of a watt per channel.....even 20dB below is using only about a watt per channel....10dB below reference comes out to about 11 watts per channel....the speakers only use the power you ask of them with the volume dial.

At those kinds of levels you wouldn't benefit from more power....so just depends what you want to do and how much you want to spend doing it if you just need a 2ch amp to expand your surrounds or maybe power your L/R (but why leave out the center if going the latter route?).

Thank you so much for shedding light as usual and for all your help.

So the idea is that at the level I'm listening I'm already at 105db, which is really loud so therefore if I'm really not listening below that then there's no need for an extra amp because (only for the extra channels) at the level the receiver is not supplying that much wattage so it can handle it. And even if I go below to -20 or - 10, it's still not being pushed much. Is that the general idea?

Also, I attached the calculator. It shows that I'm about 108.5db from my listening position, where does the volume have to be on the avr when it reaches this? How do you interpret the rest of the data? Also, In your opinion given my current situation, what would be the cheapest option that would go well with my set up just to get the extra channels?

Again thank you for all the help you've given me.

 

[Project SOG]

That (the ACD thing) is a die hard myth!!

Numerous experts (below is one example) have written on the topic yet people continue to believe, quote and thereby spread the myth! Sorry, I am not venting to you, just can't help but feel you are one of the many "victims" of those responsible for spreading hearsay, misconception and myths.

I may not agree 100% to the following, suggested by a Yamaha product manager, but I do think he is largely correct, much more so than those who continue to emphasize the importance of the ACD ratings on the internet.

The All Channels Driven Amplifier Test Controversy | Audioholics



The 180/250 W 8/4 ohm Hypex amps will only make a difference if you actually need the extra "watts. That's why to answer your question you need to use that SPL calculator. You have done that already so now you know 125 W average will get you peak spl of 102.5 dB, that's only 2.5 dB below reference level.

Now, ask yourself how often do you listen to 102.5 dB SPL? Also keep in mind 125 W average means 250 W peak so if you watch a THX movie, the 4700 can actually deliver 105.5 dB and that's full reference level!!

On the practical side, for the split seconds to even a couple seconds of such peaks the AVR likely can handle two or even three channels peaking to the same level, especially when you set the crossovers to 80 Hz or higher.

So in your case, I highly doubt you would hear a difference because a) those amps, Monolith, Buckeye, or VTV don't/won't give you double the output of the 4700 and b) doubling the output = 3 dB more spl, not more..

If the loudest spl you can tolerate for more than a minute or so it 10 dB below reference, then your AVR will only have to hit 95 dB peak SPL or 92 dB SPL average, and it would then have to output 12.5 W average. The AVR should be able to do that all day with 7 channel driven simultaneously, if well ventilated especially with help form an ext. fan.

The external amps will help taking some load off the AVR so it may run a little cooler, but you can achieve the same or more simply by using some quiet USB powered fans.

If you do add the amps regardless, you initially will likely hear a difference. That happens to many people including me, and it is a good thing because if you spent the money you should hear a difference (better of course) and you deserve the added happiness. Reality is, you really hear the difference because.......

Would I still go for the amp, of course, but that's me, I really like amps, preamps, dacs et......

Amazing! I don't even know where to start on expressing my appreciation for you taking the time to explain all this to me. You and @lovinthehd just bluw my mind with all this knowledge. Thank you for educating me.

And you're right I'm a victim to that kind of information and I'm glad you clarified. It sounds like the avr will be able to handle what I'm throwing at it in a very comfortable way and since I'm not really listening at levels the avr can't handle, then it's no need to get an amp in my case (except for the extra channels) which is good news.

In your opinion given my current situation, what would be the cheapest option that would go well with my set up just to get the extra channels?

 

[PENG]

Amazing! I don't even know where to start on expressing my appreciation for you taking the time to explain all this to me. You and @lovinthehd just bluw my mind with all this knowledge. Thank you for educating me.

And you're right I'm a victim to that kind of information and I'm glad you clarified. It sounds like the avr will be able to handle what I'm throwing at it in a very comfortable way and since I'm not really listening at levels the avr can't handle, then it's no need to get an amp in my case (except for the extra channels) which is good news.

In your opinion given my current situation, what would be the cheapest option that would go well with my set up just to get the extra channels?

You are welcome, and if you still have specific questions feel free to ask. I wish I could charge consultation fees like some people do, but I won't, not here anyway lol..

Back to your questions:

You could add a cheap 2 channel amp for the extra channels, probably the surround back because you have 4 Atmos channels so it is better to keep them on the same amp.

Or if you only want amps comparable to the Denon's internal amps then you could go with the Buckeye amp for $529 shipped, or the Emotiva amp for $449. The Buckeye amp costs more but you could use it on the FL/FR because they will perform better than the Denon's, whether you can hear a difference or not is a different story.

Again the value king would be the Buckeye NC502MP because being almost 2X the output of the NC252MP, the amp will naturally be much more future proof in case you have plan on upgrading the front speakers.

Either way, you really should use the $20 App to run Audyssey, to take advantage of your very capable PB2000 pros (that's what you have right?).

You asked HD about at what volume you can expect reference level and he didn't response. That is actually a tough question because it depends a lot of the source contents. That being said, if you use digital inputs, it would narrow things down a little but still depends on the contents, and the level settings (post Audyssey).

To even try to answer that question under stated assumptions, I would need to know your current level settings. Given the info you have provides so far, I would guess for a THX movie, with HDMI input it would likely with close to "0" (relative scale), +/- a few dB depending on the trim levels.

By the way, from the way you use the calculator, I think you may not realize that reference level based on THX is 105 dB peak with just one speaker, not 3.

 

[Project SOG]

You are welcome, and if you still have specific questions feel free to ask. I wish I could charge consultation fees like some people do, but I won't, not here anyway lol..

Back to your questions:

You could add a cheap 2 channel amp for the extra channels, probably the surround back because you have 4 Atmos channels so it is better to keep them on the same amp.

Or if you only want amps comparable to the Denon's internal amps then you could go with the Buckeye amp for $529 shipped, or the Emotiva amp for $449. The Buckeye amp costs more but you could use it on the FL/FR because they will perform better than the Denon's, whether you can hear a difference or not is a different story.

Again the value king would be the Buckeye NC502MP because being almost 2X the output of the NC252MP, the amp will naturally be much more future proof in case you have plan on upgrading the front speakers.

Either way, you really should use the $20 App to run Audyssey, to take advantage of your very capable PB2000 pros (that's what you have right?).

You asked HD about at what volume you can expect reference level and he didn't response. That is actually a tough question because it depends a lot of the source contents. That being said, if you use digital inputs, it would narrow things down a little but still depends on the contents, and the level settings (post Audyssey).

To even try to answer that question under stated assumptions, I would need to know your current level settings. Given the info you have provides so far, I would guess for a THX movie, with HDMI input it would likely with close to "0" (relative scale), +/- a few dB depending on the trim levels.

By the way, from the way you use the calculator, I think you may not realize that reference level based on THX is 105 dB peak with just one speaker, not 3.

Thanks again for your expertise and helping me decifer this whole thing that's a big puzzle to me.

I'll take your advice on the above, I'll go either with the Emotiva or the Buckeye NC502MP. I did run the Audessey app and it sounds great. The only gripe is that it really lowered the volume on my center and killed my bass but I increased the db's on both and it sounds waaaaaay better. I didn't connect the LFE on the towers nor center. Hopefully, that was the right move, if not please let me know. I have the PB2000 Pro's.

A few things do come to mind:
What's the site to order the Buckeye amp from?
If I want to increase my bass levels do I do it from the AVR or from the sub volume?
After running Audessey should I still run REW?

 

[PENG]

Thanks again for your expertise and helping me decifer this whole thing that's a big puzzle to me.

I'll take your advice on the above, I'll go either with the Emotiva or the Buckeye NC502MP. I did run the Audessey app and it sounds great. The only gripe is that it really lowered the volume on my center and killed my bass but I increased the db's on both and it sounds waaaaaay better. I didn't connect the LFE on the towers nor center. Hopefully, that was the right move, if not please let me know. I have the PB2000 Pro's.

A few things do come to mind:
What's the site to order the Buckeye amp from?
If I want to increase my bass levels do I do it from the AVR or from the sub volume?
After running Audessey should I still run REW?

To be clear, the only reason I mentioned the NC502MP is for future proofing in case you get into something different in terms of speaker specs, distance, spl requirements etc.

Audyssey typically would remove the room gains and it seems most people cannot live with the reduced bass. As you know, the App will let you get it back, and back the better way (i.e. smoother).

As far as lowering the spl from the center that seems like mystery.. With the AVR-X4700H you can definitely the LFE on the towers especially if they are very close to the subs. It may or may not sound better so for less work, not connecting them may be a good way.

For ordering, he said email or PM him:

PM or email me directly (dlaunde@gmail.com) for buying or if you have any questions at all

I had to pay via paypal right away and got the amp more than 3 weeks later because I wanted the Ghent case. If you go with his regular case it should be quicker, and practically better because he would include the trigger and the standby switch. The standby switch, to me is a must because then I can leave the amp powered up all the time. It also helps to virtually eliminate those occasional pops on power up/down.

If you are concerned about having to pay up in full before delivery, you can try to negotiate. I didn't because I almost felt guilty that the guy for sure didn't make much profit at the ridiculously low price. It would cost you a lot more to go the DIY route. Just take a look of NAD and ATI's price you will see the huge differences.

About your last question, yes it is better to add the bass via the App. A quick way is to just up the Sub levels by a few dB but for best results, at least in theory and on paper, that is a good compromise/quick. I just posted what I did after moving my couch a few days ago. To save me repeating please following the links:

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 21 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 21 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

 

[Project SOG]

To be clear, the only reason I mentioned the NC502MP is for future proofing in case you get into something different in terms of speaker specs, distance, spl requirements etc.

Audyssey typically would remove the room gains and it seems most people cannot live with the reduced bass. As you know, the App will let you get it back, and back the better way (i.e. smoother).

As far as lowering the spl from the center that seems like mystery.. With the AVR-X4700H you can definitely the LFE on the towers especially if they are very close to the subs. It may or may not sound better so for less work, not connecting them may be a good way.

For ordering, he said email or PM him:

PM or email me directly (dlaunde@gmail.com) for buying or if you have any questions at all

I had to pay via paypal right away and got the amp more than 3 weeks later because I wanted the Ghent case. If you go with his regular case it should be quicker, and practically better because he would include the trigger and the standby switch. The standby switch, to me is a must because then I can leave the amp powered up all the time. It also helps to virtually eliminate those occasional pops on power up/down.

If you are concerned about having to pay up in full before delivery, you can try to negotiate. I didn't because I almost felt guilty that the guy for sure didn't make much profit at the ridiculously low price. It would cost you a lot more to go the DIY route. Just take a look of NAD and ATI's price you will see the huge differences.

About your last question, yes it is better to add the bass via the App. A quick way is to just up the Sub levels by a few dB but for best results, at least in theory and on paper, that is a good compromise/quick. I just posted what I did after moving my couch a few days ago. To save me repeating please following the links:

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 21 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 21 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

Thanks for reassuring on the Buckeye one being for future proofing.

I think I might connect the LFE on the towers and run Audessey again to see if it sounds better or not and they're closer to the subs too. I'll take a look at those Audessey threads as well and get some nuggets off of there as well.

When you say increase the db's through the app, do you mean the Audessey app or the SVS app?
Also, If I connect the towers, I would have to use a y-splitter for the subs and one for the towers, is that right or no?



Also

 

[PENG]

Thanks for reassuring on the Buckeye one being for future proofing.

I think I might connect the LFE on the towers and run Audessey again to see if it sounds better or not and they're closer to the subs too. I'll take a look at those Audessey threads as well and get some nuggets off of there as well.

When you say increase the db's through the app, do you mean the Audessey app or the SVS app?
Also, If I connect the towers, I would have to use a y-splitter for the subs and one for the towers, is that right or no?



Also

I meant the $20 MultEQ Editor App, that you already have right?

 

[Project SOG]

I meant the $20 MultEQ Editor App, that you already have right?

Yes I have that one.

By the way, if I connect the towers, I would have to use a y-splitter for the subs and one for the towers, is that right or no?