Clip light coming on subwoofer amp

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi everyone. I’ve been away for a while but have a question.

I’m running a Denon AVR2308CI for my home theater. The receiver It is about 15 years old but still in mint shape. It has HDMI in and outputs.

The subwoofer out jack is connected to a Yamaha PX3 power amp, which is connected to my home made Eminence Lab 12 sub. The sub has no crossover but the high and low pass settings and parametric EQ etc... are all available in the PX3. The PX3 is in summed mode and puts out 600 watts RMS. It has Protection and Clip lights on the front. On the Subwoofer setup page in the Denon, I must set the signal sent to the Yamaha to +15 dB. I know that sounds like a ton of boost but without that, I need to bump the Yamaha up nearly full to drive the Lab12. It has worked perfectly for the past 8 months. All of sudden, I’m seeing either the Clip or Protection light flashing on rare occasions. I can’t see which light it is because I sit back 14 feet from the TV. The amp is right beside it.

Assuming all cabling is fine, what do you think is causing this? Many thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well it sounds like the Denon doesn't have sufficient pre-out level to drive the PX3 fully in the first place, shouldn't need to increase trim levels like that in the Denon and you could possibly create more signal clipping by maxing it out like that. However, you don't mention the type of connector used from the Denon's pre-out to the amp nor what gain settings/adjustments on the amp are you using.....

Overall you want to tickle the ability to achieve clipping with your highest playback levels, so in a sense it seems that for whatever you're seeing the clip/protection lights the input level from the Denon is just a tad too high. If its now happening with the same volume levels, material and settings in Denon/Yamaha and didn't before, that could point to other issues but first checking out the setup details....

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for chiming in, lovinthehd. The cabling is RCA from the Denon to 1/4 inch in on the Yamaha. Of course this is typical "consumer electronics to professional stage" rigging.

The gain setting on the Yamaha is at 10 dB, the maximum. It sounds like I've got things messed up on my settings. Denon and Yamaha are two very good makes, so I'm tempted to believe it's pilot error here.

When I run the sub, I have the volume at about 12:00 on the dial, otherwise things in the room start rattling, so I have room to move. Please take pity on me and tell me what I'm doing wrong . Thanks again.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, and the voltage input via such connection isn't ideal in some cases. If you're maxing out the gain on both the Denon and Yamaha, just not gear particularly suited for each other. Some use a DI type box to convert the unbalanced signal from a consumer device like the Denon to a proper balanced signal for your pro amp. Maybe something like the ART CleanBox Pro could be useful.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just glanced at the PX3 image, the front panel gain knobs aren't enumerated, so no 10dB setting I see. Are you talking about a +4/-10dB setting/switch?

 

[lovinthehd]

I remembered backwards about the switch so deleted that part of my previous post. Talking about this type of setting https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/special-4-10-edition-summit/

 

[lovinthehd]

Are you maxed out on the gain/volume knobs on the Yamaha now?

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Just glanced at the PX3 image, the front panel gain knobs aren't enumerated, so no 10dB setting I see. Are you talking about a +4/-10dB setting/switch?

The Gain setting is in a menu in the software, so no to a dedicated rotary knob.

Are you maxed out on the gain/volume knobs on the Yamaha now?

No. The volume is at about one half of the knob's full excursion and generally provides tons of bass.

Interesting thought about how mismatched consumer and pro audio are. I own a DI box but it is for musical instruments and has 1/4 inch to XLR, so it's probably no good for this. It also requires phantom power.

What if I were to set the Denon gain to say +5dB or even +10dB, the Yamaha to 0 dB, and then rotate the volume knob on the Yamaha higher - perhaps 3:00. Is it also possible I'm getting some distortion in the bass with my existing settings as well? Thanks...

 

[lovinthehd]

First, I'd simply raise the gain, even to max, on your Yamaha. Then recalibrate your avr. That's what the gain knobs are there for, no particular reason to keep it half-way. But it is the consumer level setting you're using now of -10?

 

[Lee Batchelor]

But it is the consumer level setting you're using now of -10?

Sorry, not sure what you mean by this.

Interesting thought about going pretty much full out on the Yamaha. We do that sort of thing on stage and control gain staging with a passive mixer. That way we're using the full operating curve of the Yamaha.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry, not sure what you mean by this.

Interesting thought about going pretty much full out on the Yamaha. We do that sort of thing on stage and control gain staging with a passive mixer. That way we're using the full operating curve of the Yamaha.

Did you read that article about +4/-10 settings I linked? The gain/volume knobs are largely about matching your pre-out level with the amp's sensitivity for max usefulness of the amp. Think of a consumer amp, it's just set for max gain without adjustment You have some adjustment....

 

[Lee Batchelor]

I'll read it now...please stand by .

 

[lovinthehd]

Just try maxing out the gains on the Yamaha for now, rerun calibration on your avr and see where your sub trim levels end up would be a good start.

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi, lovinthehd. I skimmed the article and know basically what it means. It seems I have a sensitivity mismatch due to the fact the receiver is consumer and the sub amp is pro audio. Apples and oranges. The manual says the following:

Sadly, the Denon manuals are pathetic. They list features and settings but very little about what they mean. It's as if they don't want money from people who are marginally familiar with their product. End of rant !

I'll try your suggestion. It's late where I am, so it will be tomorrow. I'll post back. Many thanks for your time!

Edit
That picture is all Denon tells us about the sub level. They must assume we're all using consumer subs that have plate amplifiers.

 

[Lee Batchelor]

One more thing...about recalibrating the Denon. I used the automatic calibration but ended up doing everything manually. I found I got tighter control on the sound. The Audysey software didn't seem to set things right.

 

[lovinthehd]

You use the external in set of inputs? It's not particularly relevant outside of that. Denon manuals of recent years are far better than when you needed batpig translation...but yours need more of the batpig help probably.

Can't help you with that vague description of your Audyssey experience. Hard to know what your preferences are, or what you did to setup particularly.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW just checked, your avr only has the relatively poor basic MultEQ version of Audyssey....XT and XT32 were advancements for sure.

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Didn't expect miracles about the Audyssey setup . Perhaps I'll give it another go.

By "external in set of inputs" I assume you mean the Sub out of the Denon to the 1/4 inch in of the Yamaha?

 

[Lee Batchelor]

FWIW just checked, your avr only has the relatively poor basic MultEQ version of Audyssey....XT and XT32 were advancements for sure.

Good to know. I've never been impressed with that software. Hence, why I went Manual.

 

[lovinthehd]

Didn't expect miracles about the Audyssey setup . Perhaps I'll give it another go.

By "external in set of inputs" I assume you mean the Sub out of the Denon to the 1/4 inch in of the Yamaha?

No, some Denon avr's have a separate set of analog inputs (multich) called external-in. It bypasses processing in the avr generally, lets the avr act more as a power amp.