Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue

[qba]

There is nothing more rational than a 2 am impulse purchase. I just find out that the Bowers and Wilkins site sells the 607 S2 Anniversary Edition, a little bit cheaper than the local retailers, with a 30-day full refund and they pay for the shipping back, so I just placed the order! The blind A/B test is going to happen, they better blow the $200 Sony out of the water

I got a reply from another forum that made me feel like a fool lol. Reality check: you have been scammed!

Bowers & Wilkins 607 S2 Anniversary Edition Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the B&W 607 S2 Anniversary Edition. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $700 through their various dealers. The 607 S2 comes in different color. My same was in black: Disappointing to see no attempt at directivity control with a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I tried canceling the order but they don't have a cancel order button lol, maybe its because the order is in a stage they called "ACKNOWLEDGED" maybe when it goes to the next stage of we got your money they will give me the privilege of canceling the order, otherwise, I'm contacting them on Monday or I will just send the unopen speaker box back.

This "helpful" youtube video was all the confirmation bias I needed at 2 am:

 

[highfigh]

I'm back from my 3 audio store tours!!!!

It was a long day of listening,

Because as I was listening to the current one the sound memory of the one I just finished listening was already fainting and being replaced with the experience of how good the current one was sounding. I think that if I reverse the listening order I would still experience the same pattern of whatever is the current one will sound just a little bit better than the previous one.

This is when things got really crazy
When I arrived home my brain was storing all these clean sounds, so the moment I walked in I said to my wife, honey give me a sec I need to confirm something, I went to the office, unplugged the subwoofer and I said to my self let's see how good these $200 speakers really are, playing the same exact Hi-Res songs I used in every store. They sounded amazing, what a big sound stage! the voices floating over the sound stage, I heard every detail that I thought was hearing for the first time when listening to the Bower and Wilkins, the sound is so clean! I was thinking let's say this is not as good as the $1000 speakers I just finished listening to, because my brain doesn't have an accurate and reliable rewind feature, but I can categorically say that to me those $1000 speakers didn't sound more than 10% better than what I'm listening to right now.

When I was at all the stores they give me a private room so I could listen to the speakers as loud as I wanted to, well I did and in the last store I was filling the same listening discomfort, so I think the discomfort probably doesn't come from the speakers, but from the loud volumes I'm exposing my hearing to for long periods of time.

When I got home I called my audiophile friend and I told him how frustrated I was with my finding because I really wanted to buy the $1000 "better" pair of speakers, and he made a point that I think it could be valid, he said: Alex you are listening to those speakers at such a close range, that is almost like you are wearing the biggest pair of headphones ever, driven by a powerful amplifier, of course, you can listen to every detail from inexpensive but ok sounding speakers, and of course, you feel discomfort as well you have them pointing right to your ears at high volumes.

He suggested I do, what some of you guys have previously mentioned, to move the speakers' angles to the straight position, to avoid that direct amount of sound directly into my eardrums, I was reluctant to do it when you guys mentioned it because I was trying to maintain the whole triangle positioning that I always heard about, well I moved them to the straight position and it does alleviate that overwhelming amount of sound I was feeling coming straight into my ears, but better off now it sounds even better! The stage just opens up even more so the instruments are more space out!.



I don't see the 2 or 3 weeks of me having less sleep and all the energy all you guys collectively spent to help me answer the many questions I had, and the many others that derived out of your own answers, as a failure in any shape or form, I see it as an exercise of persuing data that could end up fixing a possible health problem and the by-product of it was going to result in me experiencing better sound quality.

I really haven't made a decision not to get the new speakers yet, because there is a part of me that still think I should try to find which one of those speakers have a friendly no-charge return policy or at least a very low-cost one, buy them and do a true blind test with a quick switch of a button (A/B channel) being control by someone else, if that test gives me conclusive real improvement in the more expensive speaker I'll keep it.

Again without your knowledge and more importantly your willingness of using your precious personal time, to help a stranger fix his audio issue, this would have never happened.

Thanks!!!!!!!

In the future, if you audition speakers, try to avoid listening to too many- it's difficult to keep track of all of the details without making notes and as you wrote, the sound fainted away, but you still remember. That memory won't last forever, but it can still intrude on your thinking when checking out other speakers. It's easier to be clear about your opinions and experiences with a smaller number of speakers.

Don't underestimate the large effect of making small changes in the speaker positions. Mark their original spot with painter's tape so it cam be removed, but change the angle/tilt if they're wall-mounted and if you have a laptop computer, download Room EQ Wizard (usually shown as 'REW') and become familiar with some of the testing features- the RTA is extremely helpful in testing while changing the location and your listening position. If you see that the response resembles a close up of a hair comb, you have problems which need to be addressed. This is caused by the sound energy from one speaker canceling the energy from the other and it could be from each being at a different distance from you or it could be due to the reflected negatively affecting the direct sound energy . If you move your head from side to side, you really shouldn't hear a big difference and if you do, you should see that 'comb' effect in REW.

 

[PENG]

I got a reply from another forum that made me feel like a fool lol. Reality check: you have been scammed!

Bowers & Wilkins 607 S2 Anniversary Edition Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the B&W 607 S2 Anniversary Edition. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $700 through their various dealers. The 607 S2 comes in different color. My same was in black: Disappointing to see no attempt at directivity control with a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I tried canceling the order but they don't have a cancel order button lol, maybe its because the order is in a stage they called "ACKNOWLEDGED" maybe when it goes to the next stage of we got your money they will give me the privilege of canceling the order, otherwise, I'm contacting them on Monday or I will just send the unopen speaker box back.

This "helpful" youtube video was all the confirmation bias I needed at 2 am:

highfigh just gave you some excellent advice. When I audition speakers I made notes during and right after on my impression. The room and placement of the speakers would make a huge difference so you can't really compare two pairs of speakers in different stores. The there is the very importance factor of volume matching.

Bias is another huge factor, and on that I would suggest you watch the recently posted video made by Shady J, our resident loudspeaker expert on AH. Please be patient, grab a coffee and watch it from beginning to end. If you have questions, you probably can get a response from @shadyJ who is not only knowledgeable, helpful, and a real gentleman too.

Link to the video:
The Case for Subjectivism in Audio - YouTube

Link to the thread discussing the very topic:
A Scientific Case For Subjectivism In Audio | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

$1,000 is a lot of money on speakers that you likely would keep for many years, so take your time, don't be so quick pressing the buy button, especially you now seem to think your own speakers sound great..

 

[highfigh]

$1,000 is a lot of money on speakers that you likely would keep for many years, so take your time, don't be so quick pressing the buy button, especially you now seem to think your own speakers sound great..

I bought a pair of speakers in 1979 in the second year of working at a stereo store. I wasn't making a ton of money but I really liked those speakers, so I went in to listen to them on an evening when I wasn't scheduled. Three hours later, I had decided that I would buy a pair.

More than 40 years later, I still have them and still like the sound when I listen to music through them, even with the old Fischer receiver that's connected, which could be described as very 'warm' sounding- likely due to component values that have drifted. I mean, it's close to 50 years old- what 50 year old ISN'T a bit out of spec?

 

[Pogre]

Well that sounds like it was an adventure, and even if you still haven't totally made up your mind now you have an idea of what's out there. I'll bet you had some fun while you were at it too! I love going to audio stores and checking out speakers. There aren't many of them left around me anymore.

You know, with this day out, the notes you've made about your impressions and the A/B test you're planning you're starting to sound like a seasoned audiophile! Just remember what's important is what sounds good to you. Don't let others influence you or tell you you "picked the wrong speaker". If you like it you like it. It doesn't matter what someone else thinks. Keep us updated! I'm curious to see what you think about the B&Ws with an in home trial.

 

[qba]

In the future, if you audition speakers, try to avoid listening to too many- it's difficult to keep track of all of the details without making notes and as you wrote, the sound fainted away, but you still remember. That memory won't last forever, but it can still intrude on your thinking when checking out other speakers. It's easier to be clear about your opinions and experiences with a smaller number of speakers.

Thanks highfigh, I'll keep that in the mind! But I'm not sure there is a reason to try more, from the ones I liked I could just buy any of them.

Don't underestimate the large effect of making small changes in the speaker positions. Mark their original spot with painter's tape so it cam be removed, but change the angle/tilt if they're wall-mounted and if you have a laptop computer, download Room EQ Wizard (usually shown as 'REW') and become familiar with some of the testing features- the RTA is extremely helpful in testing while changing the location and your listening position. If you see that the response resembles a close up of a hair comb, you have problems which need to be addressed. This is caused by the sound energy from one speaker canceling the energy from the other and it could be from each being at a different distance from you or it could be due to the reflected negatively affecting the direct sound energy . If you move your head from side to side, you really shouldn't hear a big difference and if you do, you should see that 'comb' effect in REW.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[qba]

The room and placement of the speakers would make a huge difference so you can't really compare two pairs of speakers in different stores.

Every speaker I listen I asked the rep to place the towers close to each other and I was always sitting very close just like on my desk, all the reps were looking at me like why doesn't this guy sit on the nice sofas we have back here and just enjoy the music

The there is the very importance factor of volume matching..

I was very aware of this too, I noticed that with the Klipsch I was able to listen with the volume at least 10 numbers lower than the rest of the other speakers, I kept going to the knob and making sure of that

Bias is another huge factor, and on that I would suggest you watch the recently posted video made by Shady J, our resident loudspeaker expert on AH. Please be patient, grab a coffee and watch it from beginning to end. If you have questions, you probably can get a response from @shadyJ who is not only knowledgeable, helpful, and a real gentleman too.

Link to the video:
The Case for Subjectivism in Audio - YouTube

Link to the thread discussing the very topic:
A Scientific Case For Subjectivism In Audio | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

Thanks for that link it looks useful.

Btw I really wanted to like the KEF so I don't know what it was

 

[qba]

I bought a pair of speakers in 1979 in the second year of working at a stereo store. I wasn't making a ton of money but I really liked those speakers, so I went in to listen to them on an evening when I wasn't scheduled. Three hours later, I had decided that I would buy a pair.

More than 40 years later, I still have them and still like the sound when I listen to music through them, even with the old Fischer receiver that's connected, which could be described as very 'warm' sounding- likely due to component values that have drifted. I mean, it's close to 50 years old- what 50 year old ISN'T a bit out of spec?

That is called a very good return on investment! You had an unexpected amount of years of pleasure for the amount of money you paid for those speakers so many years ago, amazing

 

[qba]

Thanks Pogre,

Well that sounds like it was an adventure, and even if you still haven't totally made up your mind now you have an idea of what's out there. I'll bet you had some fun while you were at it too! I love going to audio stores and checking out speakers. There aren't many of them left around me anymore.

Oh, it was such a thrill for me, I was focused on the task at hand, but I was really enjoying putting all that informative time spent talking and researching into real world results!

You know, with this day out, the notes you've made about your impressions and the A/B test you're planning you're starting to sound like a seasoned audiophile! Just remember what's important is what sounds good to you. Don't let others influence you or tell you you "picked the wrong speaker". If you like it you like it. It doesn't matter what someone else thinks. Keep us updated! I'm curious to see what you think about the B&Ws with an in home trial.

You know I don't think those A/B blind testing with the Bower & Wilkins 607 S2 will happen anymore, I find out that even though that company decided not to have a cancel button on the order details, you have to contact them to cancel, so I already sent an email requesting cancelation of my order, and I'll tell you why, those speakers sounded a bit more details than the Paradigm Premier 100B or the Monitor Audio Silver, but not by a lot, to the point that I wasn't sure if it was just in my head or if the difference was real, I know now that whatever difference it had it was real, but was based on some trickery that is worst than what I thought it was. So I could just buy any of the other ones I liked, be super happy with them, knowing I didn't end up falling for some audio hack.

Now here is the crazy part why do my Sony speakers sound to me just as good as any of these $1000 ones?

 

[PENG]

Btw I really wanted to like the KEF so I don't know what it was

Measurements can only tell so much, even for speakers that are truly the best in terms of accuracy at the sweet spot, there will be people who don't prefer them.

 

[qba]

Btw I can't find any reviews from audioholics about the Bower & Wilkins 607 S2, is there one that I just can't happen to find? That would be very interesting.

 

[Pogre]

Now here is the crazy part why do my Sony speakers sound to me just as good as any of these $1000 ones

Those Sony Core speakers are pretty good speakers for the money. I've seen them suggested many times here for folks on a budget and they measure fairly well. So you are starting out with decent speakers. What you're getting with the higher end models is a little bit more refinement, better quality parts and looks and maybe a little bit smoother response.

 

[Am_P]

There is nothing more rational than a 2 am impulse purchase. I just find out that the Bowers and Wilkins site sells the 607 S2 Anniversary Edition, a little bit cheaper than the local retailers, with a 30-day full refund and they pay for the shipping back, so I just placed the order! The blind A/B test is going to happen, they better blow the $200 Sony out of the water

That B&W will do no such thing as blowing your Sony out of the water! The Sony engineer in Japan must be a freaking genius for what he produced with the sht budget he had to work with. In other words, he was a very charitable guy for what he gave you on a speaker that even goes on sale sometimes for under a 100 bucks/pair.

 

[PENG]

Btw I can't find any reviews from audioholics about the Bower & Wilkins 607 S2, is there one that I just can't happen to find? That would be very interesting.

I don't think AH reviewed that one specifically. By the way I thought you said you prefer warm and clean sound, yet the one you preferred from your tour seemed to be those on the "bright" side, i.e. the B&W and the Klipsh. That just shows again, people probably perceive "bright", "warm" differently.

The ones on the neutral side (on paper) would probably be the Monitor Audio Silver and the KEF, but you don't like the KEF, so may be before you pull the trigger, compare the MA Silver and the Klipsch one more time to see if between the two there is a clear winner. Or just keep you Sony if the new ones don't do better for you after your in home trial!

 

[Pogre]

I don't think AH reviewed that one specifically. By the way I thought you said you prefer warm and clean sound, yet the one you preferred from your tour seemed to be those on the "bright" side, i.e. the B&W and the Klipsh. That just shows again, people probably perceive "bright", "warm" differently.

The ones on the neutral side (on paper) would probably be the Monitor Audio Silver the the KEF, but you don't like the KEF, so may be before you pull the trigger, compare the MA Silver and the Klipsch one more time to see if between the two there is a clear winner. Or just keep you Sony if the new ones don't do better for you after your in home trial!

I took note of that too, the preference toward what most would typically consider bright, which is sometimes corellated with fatigue. I agree that KEF and Monitor Audio Silver are what I would expect to be more neutral, but setup, levels and the listening environment are a factor too.

I was very aware of this too, I noticed that with the Klipsch I was able to listen with the volume at least 10 numbers lower than the rest of the other speakers, I kept going to the knob and making sure of that

You really need to use a spl meter to level match the volume accurately. Differences in sensitivity makes using the position of the volume dial irrelevant. A more sensitive speaker will play louder at the same number on the dial than a less sensitive one, and even if it's only a slight difference it can affect the way you perceive it sounding. It may not be obvious as an increase in volume but can come across sounding cleaner or more detailed.

I know that's another curve ball I just threw at you, but it is a factor worth considering.

 

[qba]

I don't think AH reviewed that one specifically. By the way I thought you said you prefer warm and clean sound, yet the one you preferred from your tour seemed to be those on the "bright" side, i.e. the B&W and the Klipsh. That just shows again, people probably perceive "bright", "warm" differently.

The ones on the neutral side (on paper) would probably be the Monitor Audio Silver the the KEF, but you don't like the KEF, so may be before you pull the trigger, compare the MA Silver and the Klipsch one more time to see if between the two there is a clear winner. Or just keep you Sony if the new ones don't do better for you after your in home trial!

Thanks PENG, I know I was saying I liked warm sounds, because the way it was described on the youtube videos, it sounded like it was going to be more accurate and soulful, but when I was listening to those speakers in stores was clearly my instinct was liking for something else.

I don't think the Klipsh are for me, they are too big for my setup, the other smaller ones sound fantastic as well, so I could go for the Paradigm Premier 100B or the Monitor Audio Silver.

 

[qba]

I took note of that too, the preference toward what most would typically consider bright, which is sometimes corellated with fatigue. I agree that KEF and Monitor Audio Silver are what I would expect to be more neutral, but setup, levels and the listening environment are a factor too.

You really need to use a spl meter to level match the volume accurately. Differences in sensitivity makes using the position of the volume dial irrelevant. A more sensitive speaker will play louder at the same number on the dial than a less sensitive one, and even if it's only a slight difference it can affect the way you perceive it sounding. It may not be obvious as an increase in volume but can come across sounding cleaner or more detailed.

I know that's another curve ball I just threw at you, but it is a factor worth considering.

Thanks Pogre, I was thinking of that too, but how realistic is it to show up at the store with that kind of device? I was already getting rolling eyes in some of the stores because I needed to connect my Chromecast to their wifi via my phone.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks Pogre, I was thinking of that too, but how realistic is it to show up at the store with that kind of device? I was already getting rolling eyes in some of the stores because I needed to connect my Chromecast to their wifi via my phone.

Lol, yeah you might get some looks when you bust out the spl meter. One thing you could do is find out the sensitivity of the speakers your comparing and turn it up or down a couple of dB on the dial. Like if you listen to one with 89 dB sensitivity and the next one is 87 turn the dial up 2 dB when listening to the less sensitive one. That won't be as accurate as using an actual spl meter but might get them closer than not.

 

[qba]

Those Sony Core speakers are pretty good speakers for the money. I've seen them suggested many times here for folks on a budget and they measure fairly well. So you are starting out with decent speakers. What you're getting with the higher end models is a little bit more refinement, better quality parts and looks and maybe a little bit smoother response.

Thanks Pogre, So my instincts are right and they sound good as is not just in my head lol

 

[qba]

Lol, yeah you might get some looks when you bust out the spl meter. One thing you could do is find out the sensitivity of the speakers your comparing and turn it up or down a couple of dB on the dial. Like if you listen to one with 89 dB sensitivity and the next one is 87 turn the dial up 2 dB when listening to the less sensitive one. That won't be as accurate as using an actual spl meter but might get them closer than not.

That sounds like a good compromised thanks!