Improve Your Loudspeakers Sound with this Tweak?

[Pogre]

interesting, an objective measurement leading to a subjective outcome, now that's 'Audiophilia' !!

"Audiophilia"? I call it "evidence".

 

[Pogre]

My biggest hangup is the price. This is what I see I look at the cost of these Iso's...

 

[Matthew J Poes]

So take the case I made of a trampoline like suspended wood floor that sends vibrations through the house. If you can minimize those vibrations from occurring, propagating additional distortions in the form of door/knick-nack/other structural noise... is that not a good thing?
What strikes me most from my experience against that of people on a slab floor is that the slab floor has significantly more mass to accept and dampen the vibration. Plus, it is widely accepted that concrete eats up those bass frequencies, anyway.
I don't propose in my own experience anything beyond the minimizing of some of that conducted energy transference, and in so minimizing that, as I stated above, you could perceive the "tightening" of your bass. I think that is a lazy and horrible way to look at it: there are definitely more precise ways to describe what's happening than resorting to Audioph-oolic lingo.

If asked, I would definitely liken the IsoAcoustic marketing to similar claims from Cable companies. Moreover, you are paying for the part of the product that just looks good, which is fine if it becomes qualified as Audiophile Jewelry With Purpose.

But then, the argument is clearly made through the disagreement generated by Theo’s review that this didn’t live up to the standard we expect from AH.
If isolation and coupling/decoupling are going to become a recommended product or methodology, then it needs to be looked at from outside one manufacturers marketing pitch.
Questions from floor material and home construction to what is happening in a box of sand or with a maple butchers board, how and when to use spikes vs rubber feet or foam pads… and what actually changes, if anything, in the performance of the Speaker all need to be looked at.

Right now though, this reads like magic cable threads extolling the virtues of battery packs or quantum tunneling.

a few thoughts.

the trampoline suspended floor would likely do the opposite. It would likely not send vibrations through the rest of the house as it is decoupled from it. In your example, the term trampoline might evoke what happens to the frame of a trampoline when a person jumps on it. But the mass of that frame is less than the mass of the moving object. In this case it’s massively in the other direction. So a trampoline is a decoupled by nature.

it would actually be the more rigid floor of low mass that is sending vibrations everywhere and shaking things. A typical timber floor would fit this. The more rigid it is made the worse it would be.

as for absorbing. There are two issues to deal with. If the mass and rigidity of the floor is so great that the difference between it and the speaker is huge, there will be an impedance difference at the interface. The vibrations won’t transfer into the floor then. They just bounce back. Now we are in the same boat as before. You can graduate the interface to reduce the probability that the vibration bounces back. The easier solution is to change the impedance mismatch. Such as with adding a suspended floor over the concrete.

in any case, I feel like I can make a case for any of these scenarios. Without really first understanding the more desirable state, I am not sure where to land. What if the energy in the cabinet is of no audible consequence, then this may be for nothing.

another thing to consider is how well tuned the isolators are to the mass of the product. There is a real science to matching the mass of the item to be decoupled to the compliance of the decoupler. I tried to test this once and I came up with odd results that seemed to suggest that the resonant frequency of the mass spring mass system I was measuring was in the 15-25hz range. I figured my measurements were wrong. I later met someone who did this for a living and when I showed him the various decoupling devices I was using, he did some calculations and wrote me to say he thinks my measurements showed the resonance accurately and that the complainant was too low. When we scoured the catalogs for actual engineered decouplers, like those used in seismic isolation, the decoupler was tiny and very compliant for the typical 100lb or less speaker. Not what I expected at all.

in any case, I am with many of you in being skeptical. I support Theo to express his experience. We at Audioholics are not employees. We are independent contractors and we work on our own. Each of us have our own way of doing things. We seek continuity primarily with measurements. I think most of the team agrees that the effort to test these objectively was a bit beyond what we could take on. I would still like to try, but I think I have more valuable things to contribute once my time frees up again.

 

[highfigh]

Creepy....I just turned on youtube and the AH video for mass loading your speakers with sand for better sound came up first in the queue....

The interwebs- they know, man! They KNOW!

My uncle built a pair of speakers in the early-'60s and they had a sand jacket- mismatched drivers, no real high frequency response due to lack of affordable high quality tweeters, but they sounded good.

Mass helps. Makes fancy feet unnecessary, IMO.

 

[Pogre]

another thing to consider is how well tuned the isolators are to the mass of the product. There is a real science to matching the mass of the item to be decoupled to the compliance of the decoupler. I tried to test this once and I came up with odd results that seemed to suggest that the resonant frequency of the mass spring mass system I was measuring was in the 15-25hz range. I figured my measurements were wrong. I later met someone who did this for a living and when I showed him the various decoupling devices I was using, he did some calculations and wrote me to say he thinks my measurements showed the resonance accurately and that the complainant was too low. When we scoured the catalogs for actual engineered decouplers, like those used in seismic isolation, the decoupler was tiny and very compliant for the typical 100lb or less speaker. Not what I expected at all.

Interesting, and I do note that Isoacoustics has a few different sizes, depending on how much your speakers weigh. Tho the price goes up significantly the heavier you need...

I do believe there's some real science behind these and that they can make some improvements, tho how much I think depends on your flooring, and there are similar products for a lot less like SVS' Soundpath isolators for $100 per speaker. What would you guess at for any advantages to using the Isoacoustics with very solid, inert floors like mine with carpet over concrete? Right now I just use provided floor spikes.

 

[highfigh]

a few thoughts.

the trampoline suspended floor would likely do the opposite. It would likely not send vibrations through the rest of the house as it is decoupled from it. In your example, the term trampoline might evoke what happens to the frame of a trampoline when a person jumps on it. But the mass of that frame is less than the mass of the moving object. In this case it’s massively in the other direction. So a trampoline is a decoupled by nature.

it would actually be the more rigid floor of low mass that is sending vibrations everywhere and shaking things. A typical timber floor would fit this. The more rigid it is made the worse it would be.

The trampoline may be 'decoupled' from the ceiling by virtue of the lack of rigid connection, but the floor will still deflect with each occurrence of downward force and that's where its contribution lives- at some point, the frequencies from the trampoline will excite the floor to whatever degree it can. Whether from the bottom or top of the floor, the energy from a trampoline will be transmitted to the floor and if THAT'S not able to avoid resonance, the energy will continue to travel through the structure. If the floor deflects more than what's acceptable in general construction practices, someone is likely to hear something from it.

We need to examine the speakers used with these isolators- if the cabinets are constructed in a way that allows the faces to act as diaphragms, I can see a benefit as long as the isolators can be matched WRT needed compliance & mass but if the cabinets are very rigid, I see no reason for these.

An example of resonance being transferred by moving mass that isn't losing connection- The House On The Rock in Spring Green, WI has a feature called The Infinity Room. It's a long, cantilevered structure that's long, narrow and fairly flexible, as the couple behind me and my friends found out, much to their discomfort. Tow of us had studied architecture at an engineering school, one was studying the same at a different university and the fourth worked with the other two as a drafter. As we stood looking outward to see the view, look inside to take in the design of the place, the couple came up to read the plaque that was positioned at the point where people were supposed to stop. We let them move closer and the drafter & I simultaneously started to move up and down, to see how much it would deflect but we never lost contact with the floor. That couple left a vapor trail when they turned to get away. We then canceled the oscillation and the other two friends said "You guys are really bad".

 

[ryanosaur]

Interesting, and I do note that Isoacoustics has a few different sizes, depending on how much your speakers weigh. Tho the price goes up significantly the heavier you need...

I do believe there's some real science behind these and that they can make some improvements, tho how much I think depends on your flooring, and there are similar products for a lot less like SVS' Soundpath isolators for $100 per speaker. What would you guess any advantages to using the Isoacoustics with very solid, inert floors like mine with carpet over concrete? Right now I just use provided floor spikes.

$50 per four pack, $70 per 6-pack.
The heavier Subs use 6 feet which would line up to the idea of needing more support for x amount of weight.
Sorbothane bumpers are the same.

 

[Pogre]

$50 per four pack, $70 per 6-pack.
The heavier Subs use 6 feet which would line up to the idea of needing more support for x amount of weight.
Sorbothane bumpers are the same.

Ah crap, I meant to type "$100 per pair of speakers". Thanks for the correction.

 

[Mikado463]

My biggest hangup is the price. This is what I see I look at the cost of these Iso's...


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Good point and I agree. IMO tweaks like those big dollar isolation devices while they may in fact produce a benefit, for most of us there are far better avenues to go down first. Regardless I for one have got to believe that one can accomplish equal results for less $$, if in fact ones flooring concerns warrant such.

 

[lovinthehd]

The difference is that expensive cables make zero difference in audible performance(copper is copper only AWG matters if the basics are OK, so cheap cables are perfect). These isolators do make an audible difference in most rooms. I've tried: rubber feets, spikes, rubber anti-vibration mats (for like dishwashers) and non of them come close to the isolation what I experienced with isoacoustics. Most people including non-believers in tweaks/snakeoil(me and amirm of ASR) do hear a huge difference with the isoacoustics, this while I didn't want to believe it but after hearing it I did believe it, the difference is simply huge and it cannot be denied. amirm was also suprised why this was the case, and so was I. So I would be happy if this review included an more scientific approach in terms of comparisons with similair cheaper products, because now this review ends up in such discussions; that it's nothing more then audio jewelry which is kind of sad imo because I would like to have the answer myself too.

Edit: @gene: "I think this needs further study." I couldn't agree more! This product really deserves an review 2.0 imo.

Good grief why were you trying so many products to isolate? What are you isolating from? What's the actual audible issue?

 

[dutchholic]

Good grief why were you trying so many products to isolate? What are you isolating from? What's the actual audible issue?

Install isoacoustics and you found out what your audible issue was. The difference is that big for most.

It's quite difficult to isolate 30kilo speakers from a floor, close to impossible with regular spikes/rubber feets/isolation mats to do it properly. You always hear something that should not be there from the room. That's what I found out! btw those products that I talk about are shipped with most regular speakers, most speakers come with spikes/rubber feets. So it are not "so many products" imo.

This subject in audio (speaker isolation from the surface that it's standing on) is in my opinion the most underrated part in audio ever, you can read everything everywhere about speaker cables, placement, room correction, frequency curves, power filters etc.etc.(half of what I just mentioned is absolute snake-oil) but almost nothing about proper speaker isolation from it's surface. This product really proves how big the difference is when you isolate your speaker properly.

I am honestly still amazed by the difference that it makes, because I'm normally a non believer when it comes to all sorts of tweaks but the difference with isoacoustics and other speaker isolation products is just huge. It really deserves more attention/research/competition in the market/attention on websites like this.

 

[lovinthehd]

Install isoacoustics and you found out what your audible issue was. The difference is that big for most.

It's quite difficult to isolate 30kilo speakers from a floor, close to impossible with regular spikes/rubber feets/isolation mats to do it properly. You always hear something that should not be there from the room. That's what I found out! btw those products that I talk about are shipped with most regular speakers, most speakers come with spikes/rubber feets. So it are not "so many products" imo.

This subject in audio (speaker isolation from the surface that it's standing on) is in my opinion the most underrated part in audio ever, you can read everything everywhere about speaker cables, placement, room correction, frequency curves, power filters etc.etc.(half of what I just mentioned is absolute snake-oil) but almost nothing about proper speaker isolation from it's surface. This product really proves how big the difference is when you isolate your speaker properly.

I am honestly still amazed by the difference that it makes, because I'm normally a non believer when it comes to all sorts of tweaks but the difference with isoacoustics and other speaker isolation products is just huge. It really deserves more attention/research/competition in the market/attention on websites like this.

Not really what I asked. Why did you use all those products you described? Because you read on the internet it was a tweak worth buying into in general? You a fan of Norman Varney or something?

You've done proper blind comparison testing to show you can actually tell the difference?

 

[Kvn_Walker]

if anybody is brave enough to give these a try, at least Amazon offers hassle free returns

 

[Hetfield]

if anybody is brave enough to give these a try, at least Amazon offers hassle free returns

Give what a try? No link?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[highfigh]

Install isoacoustics and you found out what your audible issue was. The difference is that big for most.

It's quite difficult to isolate 30kilo speakers from a floor, close to impossible with regular spikes/rubber feets/isolation mats to do it properly. You always hear something that should not be there from the room. That's what I found out! btw those products that I talk about are shipped with most regular speakers, most speakers come with spikes/rubber feets. So it are not "so many products" imo.

This subject in audio (speaker isolation from the surface that it's standing on) is in my opinion the most underrated part in audio ever, you can read everything everywhere about speaker cables, placement, room correction, frequency curves, power filters etc.etc.(half of what I just mentioned is absolute snake-oil) but almost nothing about proper speaker isolation from it's surface. This product really proves how big the difference is when you isolate your speaker properly.

I am honestly still amazed by the difference that it makes, because I'm normally a non believer when it comes to all sorts of tweaks but the difference with isoacoustics and other speaker isolation products is just huge. It really deserves more attention/research/competition in the market/attention on websites like this.

Speaker companies ship their speakers with spikes/etc for the same reason they started using multiple binding posts- it became a fad in the early-'80s and unfortunately, it hasn't died.

Ever see those spikes referred to as 'Fowler Toes'? They bought the rights to the design and put their name on them, but are advanced hobbyists, more than anything. They sell coffee.

 

[Pogre]

Give what a try? No link?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

https://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-GAIA-Speaker-Feet-Chrome/dp/B01MSB75UD/ref=sr_1_1?

"Only" $600 for 2 packs of 4 on Amazon...

 

[Hetfield]

https://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-GAIA-Speaker-Feet-Chrome/dp/B01MSB75UD/ref=sr_1_1?

"Only" $600 for 2 packs of 4 on Amazon...

Oh that's reasonable.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

https://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-GAIA-Speaker-Feet-Chrome/dp/B01MSB75UD/ref=sr_1_1?

"Only" $600 for 2 packs of 4 on Amazon...

Wow. Those are actually beautiful! But useless…

My experience is similar to yours. I believe that on concrete there is ZERO reason to use anything. Spend the money on treatments that actually work.
For a suspended floor, I might be slightly different. I say might. Because Ime, any minute vibration that could possibly be passed from a cabinet through a stand, or it’s own feet will be completely masked by the incredibly more impactful acoustic energy sent into the room and floor from the driver and port. Not to mention the other room reflections.
Very few suspended floors I’ve been on were not easily excited by energy. Not as sensitive as a drum head, but that’s kind of what it’s like.
I won’t say that there aren’t rooms that need some kind of solution like these. But by and large I believe these things are superfluous.

 

[highfigh]

Very few suspended floors I’ve been on were not easily excited by energy. Not as sensitive as a drum head, but that’s kind of what it’s like.
I won’t say that there aren’t rooms that need some kind of solution like these. But by and large I believe these things are superfluous.

OTOH, main speakers are usually placed relatively close to a wall and that's not mid-span, where the deflection would be greatest. If the speakers are extremely heavy, their weight pre-loads the structure, which also reduces additional deflection and changes the resonant frequency of the floor.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

OTOH, main speakers are usually placed relatively close to a wall and that's not mid-span, where the deflection would be greatest. If the speakers are extremely heavy, their weight pre-loads the structure, which also reduces additional deflection and changes the resonant frequency of the floor.

This makes sense. Super heavy speakers would raise the resonant frequency. But they would have to be extremely heavy to make much difference being placed at the edges of the room where the floor would likely be more damped vs the center of the room where there’s less support from the bottom plate, and walls below.
I still believe the deflection, reflection, and diffusion would mask anything transferred through the speaker/stand into the floor.