GR Research Hot topic?

[-Jim-]

@Dieago I am sympathetic to you but while I agree Danny at GR does seem to really know about Speakers and Cross Overs (although I'm not 100% sold on what he builds until I see some independent testing and reviews), he's definitely drank the wrong Kool-Aid on Cables. (I'm also not sold on Tube Connectors either.)

I have a very wealthy friend who spent over $10,000 on MIT Cables with Boxes on them (see AR Mono Block Amplifiers...and Speaker wires ) for his stereo system - not a Home Theater (His two Wilson X-1/Grand SLAMM speakers were over $100,000 - all prices in CAN $). He was sold on the MIT Cables by his dealer, but eventually after multiple unexplained failures of his AR Monoblock Amplifiers (costing thousands, and months of time to ship them back to & from the Factory to repair each time), I convinced him the Boxes on his MIT speaker cables and interconnects could have failed causing his problems. I changed the interconnects out for World's Best Cables (OMG I hate that name!) which are very well built for less than $500, but technically Monoprice, or Blue Jean, cables would have been fine. It's been over 2 months and so far, no issues.

I really hope you enjoy what you bought, and the memories of visiting GR. Some here would really have to swallow hard (like a 40 pounder of Crown Royal) to believe everything Danny says. Sorry.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Short answer is no. If you're trying to tweak your sound by changing cables and amps, then that means those cables and amps are causing distortions in your signal.



This is a terrible analogy. Tires are clearly the last object to interact with you and the road you're driving on. Tires play a rather large part in how your car handles, brakes, and accelerates. Speakers are clearly the last object to interact with the signal you want to hear. Speakers play one of the largest parts in the sound you perceive. Therefore, I'd say tires are more analogous to speakers.

So much in cars relies on electronics nowadays, are you going to buy buy "performance" wiring for every system in your car?

100% true. The performance of tires is completely measurable too. I really dislike car analogies to audio equipment. It just doesn’t translate.
However I do appreciate dieago sharing his thoughts here. Many lesser members would certainly have left butt hurt by now.

 

[Dieago]

That is not my point especially with the car analogy too. Point is man if your going to spend upwards of 15-20-30 grand on a system go ahead and splurge and pop for the best in cables too. My bet is the majority of system owners Now! I said majority! have less than 3-4-5 grand invested. I mean how many people out there popped over 1500 per speaker x3 then 4-5-6 grand for a receiver amp etc. My wife included when she reads something someone has written in a printed article takes it as gospel not even knowing anything about who wrote it. My point being when a person hits that Holy grail system I mean top tier level where top tier sound and separation is than maybe a difference can be seen or heard idk and never will . my thoughts are if you only have 1500-3000 grand in speakers and a few grand in a receiver a few strands out of cat5 work as good as 100.00 set of cables again idk. My cables are idr 12.00 a pair and they please my ears. So no even though I can see where they COULD be a difference at a higher level I am not buying any. I think I fit into the majority of America Im vested around 4-5000 total minus TV and spending no more other than a new up to date receiver if I ever figure out what I want and can find one. I am not a audiophile I just a soon go fishing ride my bike or etc. But I do love good sounding music and a good movie with surround with a good sub but Id rather be outside.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Imo, if you’re spending 20, 30, 50k or more on your system, you should really be spending a bunch more in room treatments. There’s just no way that cables can elevate a system, assuming you’re using quality cables in the first place, like treatments and good setup can.
Just my opinion.

 

[Dieago]

100% true. The performance of tires is completely measurable too. I really dislike car analogies to audio equipment. It just doesn’t translate.
However I do appreciate dieago sharing his thoughts here. Many lesser members would certainly have left butt hurt by now.

My feelings do not get hurt and I do not get mad. (except when I think about my government) I will debate I will listen and I will try not to argue either. Not worth it a forum isn't life.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

My feelings do not get hurt and I do not get mad. (except when I think about my government) I will debate I will listen and I will try not to argue either. Not worth it a forum isn't life.

Agreed.
I read your earlier posts but didn’t follow the whole thread all the way through. FWIW, I didn’t feel you were drinking the cable kool-aid. I’ve just never seen or heard any evidence that beyond a certain quality level of cabling, there are any gains to be had. Room treatments give much better ROI than electronics or especially cables. Also, just because you have invested a lot of money in gear, does not mean that it’s been set up properly. So even IF Uber cables make a difference, that can easily be undone by bad set up etc.

 

[ryanosaur]

My feelings do not get hurt and I do not get mad. (except when I think about my government) I will debate I will listen and I will try not to argue either. Not worth it a forum isn't life.

Optimistic AF… but I do like where you’re going with that!

 

[Dieago]

Imo, if you’re spending 20, 30, 50k or more on your system, you should really be spending a bunch more in room treatments. There’s just no way that cables can elevate a system, assuming you’re using quality cables in the first place, like treatments and good setup can.
Just my opinion.

Fyi Your opinion matters! If I had that kind of cash to spend man o man talk about room treatment! Carpenters would be hard at work adding a dedicated room on my house with a sign on door saying hearing protection advised LOL

 

[Dieago]

Optimistic AF… but I do like where you’re going with that!

Ryan isnt that what its all about learn by asking stating and also listening but being open minded?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Fyi Your opinion matters! If I had that kind of cash to spend man o man talk about room treatment! Carpenters would be hard at work adding a dedicated room on my house with a sign on door saying hearing protection advised LOL

You and me both.
I should also say that imo, even if you haven’t spent so much on a system, treatments will still be much more beneficial maybe even more so.

 

[Pogre]

That is not my point especially with the car analogy too. Point is man if your going to spend upwards of 15-20-30 grand on a system go ahead and splurge and pop for the best in cables too. My bet is the majority of system owners Now! I said majority! have less than 3-4-5 grand invested. I mean how many people out there popped over 1500 per speaker x3 then 4-5-6 grand for a receiver amp etc. My wife included when she reads something someone has written in a printed article takes it as gospel not even knowing anything about who wrote it. My point being when a person hits that Holy grail system I mean top tier level where top tier sound and separation is than maybe a difference can be seen or heard idk and never will . my thoughts are if you only have 1500-3000 grand in speakers and a few grand in a receiver a few strands out of cat5 work as good as 100.00 set of cables again idk. My cables are idr 12.00 a pair and they please my ears. So no even though I can see where they COULD be a difference at a higher level I am not buying any. I think I fit into the majority of America Im vested around 4-5000 total minus TV and spending no more other than a new up to date receiver if I ever figure out what I want and can find one. I am not a audiophile I just a soon go fishing ride my bike or etc. But I do love good sounding music and a good movie with surround with a good sub but Id rather be outside.

It's one thing to spend a lot for audio jewelry because you have the money and like the looks. It's another thing to suggest that there are any actual improvements in performance. That last part is what ruffles some feathers 'round here because it simply isn't true. If you dig into it you'll find in general that the more educated someone is on the subject (like electrical engineers, speaker designers and physicists) the more they tend to dismiss magic cable claims. At some point it almost becomes insulting once you know electric theory and how it really works. It's a well established, known and measurable science.

If someone has the cash and wants to spend thousands on cables, go for it. I don't care. Just don't try to tell me (or other potential buyers whose money can do far better in some other area for actual, real improvements) there's some kind of quantum cryogenic magical, untestable woo woo that makes them sound better, and the reason I can't tell is because my gear is too crappy to reveal it. Especially when that same person hasn't even done a proper comparison, and/or refuses to do one.

 

[Dieago]

My home a lifetime work in progress works pretty good. It was built in 1903 the walls celling and floor is solid wood and I just like wall to wall carpet still. OLD SCHOOL I guess So I have very very little echo if any. and the wife has the walls covered with all kinds of stuff. If I yell or clap my hands very very little reverb and even with subs hitting can not hear much from outside house either. The wife gets pissed I move speakers around then she moves them back. That's a ongoing battle I will never win but also will never surrender either. You ever walked into a new construction with a bare room concrete floors and no furnishings. I hated that echo sound period not even thinking of sound system sounds like a cave.

 

[Pogre]

My home a lifetime work in progress works pretty good. It was built in 1903 the walls celling and floor is solid wood and I just like wall to wall carpet still. OLD SCHOOL I guess So I have very very little echo if any. and the wife has the walls covered with all kinds of stuff. If I yell or clap my hands very very little reverb and even with subs hitting can not hear much from outside house either. The wife gets pissed I move speakers around then she moves them back. That's a ongoing battle I will never win but also will never surrender either. You ever walked into a new construction with a bare room concrete floors and no furnishings. I hated that echo sound period not even thinking of sound system sounds like a cave.

Yeah, empty unfurnished rooms with poor speaker placement tend to sound pretty bad.

As for your wife, just move the speakers like an inch a day for a couple of weeks. That should be gradual enough for her not to notice over time!

 

[Dieago]

It's one thing to spend a lot for audio jewelry because you have the money and like the looks. It's another thing to suggest that there are any actual improvements in performance. That last part is what ruffles some feathers 'round here because it simply isn't true. If you dig into it you'll find in general that the more educated someone is on the subject (like electrical engineers, speaker designers and physicists) the more they tend to dismiss magic cable claims. At some point it almost becomes insulting once you know electric theory and how it really works. It's a well established, known and measurable science.

If someone has the cash and wants to spend thousands on cables, go for it. I don't care. Just don't try to tell me (or other potential buyers whose money can do far better in some other area for actual, real improvements) there's some kind of quantum cryogenic magical, untestable woo woo that makes them sound better, and the reason I can't tell is because my gear is too crappy to reveal it. Especially when that same person hasn't even done a proper comparison, and/or refuses to do one.

Sounds to me you are without saying it dislike salesmen. people who are paid to try to sell you something you don't need or want. Talk you into it lol AKA cars furniture etc.. Come to think about it everything in life today lol

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, empty unfurnished rooms with poor speaker placement tend to sound pretty bad.

As for your wife, just move the speakers like an inch a day for a couple of weeks. That should be gradual enough for her not to notice over time!

Hey that’s my technique!!! Lol.

 

[Pogre]

Sounds to me you are without saying it dislike salesmen. people who are paid to try to sell you something you don't need or want. Talk you into it lol AKA cars furniture etc.. Come to think about it everything in life today lol

Salesfolk are definitely part of the problem and add to the spread of misinformation. People with more money than brains that let their fee-fees influence their perceptions by "testing" using sighted bias with no controls help spread it too. So do a lot of laypeople who read about it in some of the online AV magazines and take it as gospel because it comes from a perceived "expert".

It's a bit of a problem in this hobby and that's why some folks get pretty riled over the subject.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is not my point especially with the car analogy too. Point is man if your going to spend upwards of 15-20-30 grand on a system go ahead and splurge and pop for the best in cables too. My bet is the majority of system owners Now! I said majority! have less than 3-4-5 grand invested. I mean how many people out there popped over 1500 per speaker x3 then 4-5-6 grand for a receiver amp etc. My wife included when she reads something someone has written in a printed article takes it as gospel not even knowing anything about who wrote it. My point being when a person hits that Holy grail system I mean top tier level where top tier sound and separation is than maybe a difference can be seen or heard idk and never will . my thoughts are if you only have 1500-3000 grand in speakers and a few grand in a receiver a few strands out of cat5 work as good as 100.00 set of cables again idk. My cables are idr 12.00 a pair and they please my ears. So no even though I can see where they COULD be a difference at a higher level I am not buying any. I think I fit into the majority of America Im vested around 4-5000 total minus TV and spending no more other than a new up to date receiver if I ever figure out what I want and can find one. I am not a audiophile I just a soon go fishing ride my bike or etc. But I do love good sounding music and a good movie with surround with a good sub but Id rather be outside.

You still think expensive cables have some sort of audible benefit it seems. It doesn't matter how much they cost, there's not going to be an improvement and quite possibly degradation instead. It indeed can be a purchase for people who want to overspend money in a silly way, tho. So if you have too much money, this is a good way to get rid of some money. If you still want to buy the silly wire after folks here tried to educate you about it....so be it. Can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it sort of thing.....

 

[NINaudio]

My point being when a person hits that Holy grail system I mean top tier level where top tier sound and separation is than maybe a difference can be seen or heard

The answer is no, it won't make a difference to the sound unless it is not transmitting the signal properly. It's thinking like yours that keeps these frauds and shamsters in business.

If there were magic cables that somehow enhanced signals being transmitted, you can bet they'd be in use at high energy physics research facilities around the world. These facilities regulate everything they can to keep things consistent and as noise free as possible and are often looking for the tiniest of signals amongst background noise. I'll tell you what our biggest issue often is with cabling: the terminations. 9 times out of 10 when we are having an issue with a cable it needs to be reterminated, the other time we might need to replace it because some insulation burned through and it's now faulting to ground. We have tons of copper cabling in use, none if it is sprinkled with magic fairy dust or comes from a manufacturer claiming quantum molecular improvements. We make sure it's the right gauge for our needs and properly insulated. I see spools and spools of Belden cable around site. If it's good enough for high energy physics research it's good enough for home audio use.

 

[Alex2507]

a forum isn't life.

Take it back ...

 

[kevintomb]

Danny is a very nice guy. .BUT...........

He uses his smooth talking and nice personality, combined with some actual GOOD advice, to push some snake oil.

It is like the super friendly and nice used car salesman. He will eventually get you to buy, even if you are on the fence.....