GR Research Hot topic?

[ryanosaur]

Watched both videos and I just don't know that to make out of it. If the speaker, say the SVS Ultra bookshelf sounds good and crossover is well designed but with what he calls "cheap parts" then what's the difference? What is the speaker going up fail in 2 months because I don't think so.
If it's designed well with the parts they chose what the heck is the difference?

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Some people honestly seem to think an $80 part sounds better than a corresponding $15 part. I'm not even getting into gold-oil impregnated Capacitors or the like....
The thing is there are some amazingly talented Speaker Designers... Guys who are designing Speakers that can sell for $5-10K or more...
They will gladly add more expensive components if you want... but for at least one of these guys, he uses Audyn Q4 Caps pretty much across the board... Sand Cast Resistors... and where appropriate, will use a NPE Cap or Steel Core Inductor. Does that mean his $4000 Speaker is trash? Absolutely not!

Simply, some feel that something is being left on the table if you aren't using the absolute most expensive luxury components, but there is absolutely no measured evidence that these components do anything other than raise the BOG.

And as a Chef I used to work with said on many occasions, anybody can take premium ingredients and make good food... but it takes skill to take lesser ingredients and make them outstanding.
When I worked for him, two years running, we had the highest food rating in the nation according to Zaggat voters.

 

[Hetfield]

He implies that they would sound a lot better with more expensive parts. But to your point, if they already sound good why bother regardless of the parts quality.
In most of the speaker videos I watched, he does modify them and show you before and after results. Usually his best results are with the really budget speakers, but then his crossover kits can cost as much, or more, than the speakers did! I'd love for Audioholics to review one of these Kits.

And I have seen him say he will just mimick the same exact crossover because there is nothing to improve on except the parts themselves.
I'm not one to stick up for the mass produced speakers, I have been running away from them myself for ID speakers but what he does it a bit unfair and shitty.
He calls the crossovers a lot of times "cheese". I don't think any of these companies, Klipsch included are just throwing junk together and selling it to the public. I mean yes they are hitting a price point and the middle man gets a cut, make a profit under those conditions can't be easy.

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[ryanosaur]

Another random point worth considering... (OK, not so random)...
Many original XOs are good enough. But what is good enough? You can tweak it to your hearts content, adding various filters to balance out the impedance or attenuate a specific frequency... But everything you do adds complexity and takes a toll on the sensitivity of the Speaker. With endless fiddling, and all the inexpensive parts in the PE Catalog, I am certain you you can do one of Danny's XO mods for a fraction of the cost he is charging and get the exact same results.

 

[Hetfield]

Some people honestly seem to think an $80 part sounds better than a corresponding $15 part. I'm not even getting into gold-oil impregnated Capacitors or the like....
The thing is there are some amazingly talented Speaker Designers... Guys who are designing Speakers that can sell for $5-10K or more...
They will gladly add more expensive components if you want... but for at least one of these guys, he uses Audyn Q4 Caps pretty much across the board... Sand Cast Resistors... and where appropriate, will use a NPE Cap or Steel Core Inductor. Does that mean his $4000 Speaker is trash? Absolutely not!

Simply, some feel that something is being left on the table if you aren't using the absolute most expensive luxury components, but there is absolutely no measured evidence that these components do anything other than raise the BOG.

And as a Chef I used to work with said on many occasions, anybody can take premium ingredients and make good food... but it takes skill to take lesser ingredients and make them outstanding.
When I worked for him, two years running, we had the highest food rating in the nation according to Zaggat voters.

And this all really has me thinking, I mean really what the heck is a speaker? There ain't much to it, a well braced cabinet, good drivers and a nice tweeter, then comes the crossover. That's really all it is.
I'm over simplifying a bit but as long as the cabinet is braced well, little to no resonance, good hefty drivers and a good tweeter with a well designed crossover you are pretty much home free.

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[slipperybidness]

@j_garcia
Did you / do you have some GR speakers? Maybe something with some Skiing Ninja Upgrades?

I could be wrong, I'm thinking you may have the most direct experience with this brand from the regulars on the forum?

 

[NINaudio]

If only we had someone who literally dealt with smashing atoms (probably) into each other for a living that could explain why that's a pile of horse sh!t.

Well, we really only deal with protons... lol

It's all a pile of horseshit because there's no evidence that it works. If these exotic cables had such great noise rejection and signal retention properties believe me, we'd be using them, but we don't.

Ryanosaur probably replied more eloquently.

 

[j_garcia]

@j_garcia
Did you / do you have some GR speakers? Maybe something with some Skiing Ninja Upgrades?

I could be wrong, I'm thinking you may have the most direct experience with this brand from the regulars on the forum?

I have A/V-1s with Skiing Ninja upgraded x-overs still. I sold my A/V-3s to my son in law and those have the upgraded x-overs as well, upgraded by me. They do sound a bit different after the updates, a bit more detail and open sounding, but not like they were transformed to a new speaker. IMO, they should just come this way. The reason Danny offers the upgrades separate is likely to lower the cost of the base kit because the standard x-over is much less expensive.

I would not call Danny snake oil, but I don't always agree with what he says. Regardless, his speaker kits sound great.

 

[slipperybidness]

Well, we really only deal with protons... lol

It's all a pile of horseshit because there's no evidence that it works. If these exotic cables had such great noise rejection and signal retention properties believe me, we'd be using them, but we don't.

Ryanosaur probably replied more eloquently.

Your equipment must not be sensitive enough to detect the differences in the high $ cables (sarcasm!)

 

[Dieago]

Guys I am new hello. Ok this is topic is a few months old But let me first say I was also a sceptic and also my system sounds very very good to me even though its getting older. I am only 65 miles from GR shop so I drove up yesterday and in person I gave everything a listen and everything was on the floor in the wide open to see and OMG my ears were blown away couldn't believe my ears. I like every one else have been in a magnolia sound room and listen to the Martin Logan B&W ETC ETC. nothing Ive heard sounded so sweet to my ears. I bought a pair of speakers. Now maybe cables do sound like snake oil but also maybe when you move to another way higher level of equipment where you are tweaking there just may be a difference! Now will high end cables help your 6 grand system or your 2000 system maybe not. But just maybe when you get into running clean power on everything like a professional sound studio quality then maybe yes. But on my 15yo 1200.00 L&R speakers and my NEW B&W Center and my 15 yo Pioneer elite I doubt they would make any difference I could hear with my ears. But guys If you spend 6 grand on speakers and another 3 grand on a receiver then another 2-3 grand on a amp and 2 grand on other peripherals are you going to use 25.00 Amazon cables? I mean would you buy a 100 grand sports car and buy generic no name brand tires from wally world? But all said and done I went to his house and business and seen and heard for myself and That was Friday and I am still in awe. I listen to the speakers I bought and I am very happy. There is many many levels to systems and I heard one level I will never hear or afford. All of use become skeptical because we have all seen marketing at work especially in that blue store where the employs need a schematic to just tie their shoes. I enjoy Youtube but man oh man is it also a marketing business of the new age. But all being said on cables my 60yo being a mechanic with air tools I doubt they would help me I just dont know on that. But his speakers are legit to my ears!

 

[ryanosaur]

re you going to use 25.00 Amazon cables?

No.
I'd use Monoprice Choice Speaker Cables, still.

 

[Dieago]

Actually monoprice is what I am using

 

[Pogre]

Guys I am new hello. Ok this is topic is a few months old But let me first say I was also a sceptic and also my system sounds very very good to me even though its getting older. I am only 65 miles from GR shop so I drove up yesterday and in person I gave everything a listen and everything was on the floor in the wide open to see and OMG my ears were blown away couldn't believe my ears. I like every one else have been in a magnolia sound room and listen to the Martin Logan B&W ETC ETC. nothing Ive heard sounded so sweet to my ears. I bought a pair of speakers. Now maybe cables do sound like snake oil but also maybe when you move to another way higher level of equipment where you are tweaking there just may be a difference! Now will high end cables help your 6 grand system or your 2000 system maybe not. But just maybe when you get into running clean power on everything like a professional sound studio quality then maybe yes. But on my 15yo 1200.00 L&R speakers and my NEW B&W Center and my 15 yo Pioneer elite I doubt they would make any difference I could hear with my ears. But guys If you spend 6 grand on speakers and another 3 grand on a receiver then another 2-3 grand on a amp and 2 grand on other peripherals are you going to use 25.00 Amazon cables? I mean would you buy a 100 grand sports car and buy generic no name brand tires from wally world? But all said and done I went to his house and business and seen and heard for myself and That was Friday and I am still in awe. I listen to the speakers I bought and I am very happy. There is many many levels to systems and I heard one level I will never hear or afford. All of use become skeptical because we have all seen marketing at work especially in that blue store where the employs need a schematic to just tie their shoes. I enjoy Youtube but man oh man is it also a marketing business of the new age. But all being said on cables my 60yo being a mechanic with air tools I doubt they would help me I just dont know on that. But his speakers are legit to my ears!

Oh wow. I never thought of it that way before... I hereby renounce skepticism and now believe in the power of magic cables! You sir, have given compelling testimony.

 

[lovinthehd]

Guys I am new hello. Ok this is topic is a few months old But let me first say I was also a sceptic and also my system sounds very very good to me even though its getting older. I am only 65 miles from GR shop so I drove up yesterday and in person I gave everything a listen and everything was on the floor in the wide open to see and OMG my ears were blown away couldn't believe my ears. I like every one else have been in a magnolia sound room and listen to the Martin Logan B&W ETC ETC. nothing Ive heard sounded so sweet to my ears. I bought a pair of speakers. Now maybe cables do sound like snake oil but also maybe when you move to another way higher level of equipment where you are tweaking there just may be a difference! Now will high end cables help your 6 grand system or your 2000 system maybe not. But just maybe when you get into running clean power on everything like a professional sound studio quality then maybe yes. But on my 15yo 1200.00 L&R speakers and my NEW B&W Center and my 15 yo Pioneer elite I doubt they would make any difference I could hear with my ears. But guys If you spend 6 grand on speakers and another 3 grand on a receiver then another 2-3 grand on a amp and 2 grand on other peripherals are you going to use 25.00 Amazon cables? I mean would you buy a 100 grand sports car and buy generic no name brand tires from wally world? But all said and done I went to his house and business and seen and heard for myself and That was Friday and I am still in awe. I listen to the speakers I bought and I am very happy. There is many many levels to systems and I heard one level I will never hear or afford. All of use become skeptical because we have all seen marketing at work especially in that blue store where the employs need a schematic to just tie their shoes. I enjoy Youtube but man oh man is it also a marketing business of the new age. But all being said on cables my 60yo being a mechanic with air tools I doubt they would help me I just dont know on that. But his speakers are legit to my ears!

LOL. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[jinjuku]

And as a Chef I used to work with said on many occasions, anybody can take premium ingredients and make good food... but it takes skill to take lesser ingredients and make them outstanding.

I still remember this:

It's 2008 and we go out for New Years Eve at this highly rated restaurant with a $300 per person 5 course celebration dinner. We walk out after, look at each other, and end up and the local favorite burger joint and it was SO much better.

 

[ryanosaur]

I still remember this:

It's 2008 and we go out for New Years Eve at this highly rated restaurant with a $300 per person 5 course celebration dinner. We walk out after, look at each other, and end up and the local favorite burger joint and it was SO much better.

That Chef I mentioned... the fastest way to upset him wasn't an email complaining about the food rather an email saying that somebody went out for more food after they were done with their meal there. He knew his food was good and that only personal preference left room to complain, but not making certain the diners had their fill was anathema to him.

 

[zieglj01]

That M-130 woofer is a good one ... as far as some of the other things, I eat the fish and spit out the bones

 

[Dieago]

I love good sound but that being said I am not a wealthy man and I am NOT going to buy 2-300.00 cables
But what I do know is when I hear something that I like and I left there knowing what I heard sounded really good.
Now granted his equipment lent to the sound and Im sure even though mine is not junk its a different caliber.
But I do believe without a good speaker the rest has no chance anyway. On a side note he didn't recommend cables at all matter of fact he didn't recommend nothing and I believe him to be a honest person and smart he also let me hang out and seen some other non sound toys as well. But never did he try to sell me on anything.

 

[lovinthehd]

Buying 2-300.00 cables will not generally be anything but maybe prettier (or even possibly worse quality than something less expensive). Why did you make the sales pitch about silly cables depending on your $100k sportscar analogy if Danny didn't push 'em a little bit? You just think that way about cables generally?

 

[Dieago]

Basically all I was saying about cables in the first comment Is if I had the money To walk in and spend 20 grand on sound equipment and a man asked if I wanted 400.00 cables I'm sure I would say yea why not. I mean what's 400 bucks at that point? I do understand and probably like the rest of you that's been in this a while. I paid 80.00 for a hdmi 20 years ago and since then I cant tell a picture difference between a decent 20 dollar cable and a 80.00 one in the 4ft range. But I can say I tried one or two or three lol But boys If I counted all the money I've waisted on toys over the years Id be sick. metal detectors hot rods motorcycles rc planes etc. Hence the word toys. Toy in the dictionary should read something un needed for survival

 

[Dieago]

Buying 2-300.00 cables will not generally be anything but maybe prettier (or even possibly worse quality than something less expensive). Why did you make the sales pitch about silly cables depending on your $100k sportscar analogy if Danny didn't push 'em a little bit? You just think that way about cables generally?

Yes and not on just cables