Do vaccine refusers have an ethical duty to pay for their own Covid care?

[highfigh]

Oh great, now the "War On Drugs" guys are gonna' show up and you know the "Gun Control" guys won't be far behind and my f#%kin' coffee isn't finished percolating yet!
Fine, everything wrong with the world is the fault of those refusing the vaccine. Let insurance companies raise rates. Just raise em' for assholes who eat, drink and smoke too much as well. They charge more for kids who drive too fast. Why not for those who live too fast? People only give a s#%t these days when it comes to money, anyway. Isn't the spending of money the real concern of this thread? Good thing most people in this country cannot afford health insurance on their own. Can't raise the rate on a guy who can't afford the policy. Where's my f#%kin' cup?!! I kid folks. Wear your seat belts. You wanna' gobble down Hot Pockets and do meth or anything else cooked up by some crackpot looking to make a buck, have at it. Just don't have any delusions about government officials giving a s#%t about anybody's health. Their sponsors are interested in profit. A farmer is f#%ked if his livestock all get sick and they lose all of the meat. Yeah, and we are the cash cows. MOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

In the past, I posted that if we get universal health care, part of it should contain some kind of requirement that people eat healthy food, cut down or stop abusing drugs & alcohol, get some exercise and generally take care of themselves better and I was skewered for it. Everyone said the government has no right to tell us how we should live. My, how opinions have changed.

The US has so many people dying because of their own stupidity, laziness and stubbornness and the marketing of unhealthy lifestyles (far more than from COVID) that it's no wonder they're OK with politicians spending money for crap programs- they're seen as 'helping', even if they aren't.

The Impact of Cardiovascular Disease (CVD) | Lead The Legacy | HCP

www.leadthelegacyhcp.com

 

[Dan]

You write that the person is never expected to set foot in any hospital owned by the corporation, but by not being vaccinated the person will not be able to enter in any case even if (s)he needs to. From a corporation point of view I can see why they don't want that, and if they make one exception they have to allow for others as well.

You don't write why he refuses vaccination but if he is an anti-vaccer (including "religious reasons") I don't want to be treated by him as I question his judgement and competence as a medical doctor.

I really don't know why he/she is refusing and I've never met the person or seen their reads to get an assessment of their ability. I agree with your last sentence and I see the corporate no exceptions policy as the easiest way to go too.

 

[John Parks]

I would generally agree with this but the state Department of Health Services had the Army Corps of Engineers set up a large treatment center in a Wisconsin State Fairgrounds building for a large number of COVID patients, in case it was needed. According to the link, they treated a total of 170 patients but had capacity for many more, so it could have been done anywhere this might have been needed as long as they could staff the facilities. Since the Military isn't busy, their medical staff could have been used.

COVID-19: Alternate Care Facility at State Fair Park

[[{"fid":"118082","view_mode":"medium","fields":{"format":"medium","field_file_image_title_text[und][0][value]":"Aerial view of rows of cube-like temporary patient care spaces at the Alternate Care Facility at State Fair Park","field_file_image_alt_text[und][0][value]":"Aerial view of rows of...

www.dhs.wisconsin.gov

New York City alone has had over 55K deaths and at the beginning, they lost many (roughly 6400) elderly & sick who were in nursing homes, where Covid patients had been sent at the beginning of the crisis. All they needed to do was set up some kind of temporary care facilities (not that it's an easy thing to do).

NYC had several, including the Naval ship Comfort, but they were basically not used. Not sure why WRT the temporary hospitals (well, I am pretty sure why but that’s not the subject of this thread) but the Comfort may well have been named the USS Orange Man Bad as far as Coumo was concerned…

U.S. Field Hospitals Stand Down, Most Without Treating Any COVID-19 Patients

Across the U.S., convention centers and empty fields were transformed into emergency field hospitals at a cost to federal taxpayers of more than $660 million. Most haven't treated a single patient.

www.npr.org

Your Wisconsin State Fair facilities are listed in the article.

 

[mtrycrafts]

In the past, I posted that if we get universal health care, part of it should contain some kind of requirement that people eat healthy food, cut down or stop abusing drugs & alcohol, get some exercise and generally take care of themselves better and I was skewered for it. Everyone said the government has no right to tell us how we should live. My, how opinions have changed.

The US has so many people dying because of their own stupidity, laziness and stubbornness and the marketing of unhealthy lifestyles (far more than from COVID) that it's no wonder they're OK with politicians spending money for crap programs- they're seen as 'helping', even if they aren't.
...

I don't remember that thread so don't know the context.
But, one important thing to remember is that this virus is highly contagious whereas an unhealthy lifestyle is not no matter how close I may come to such an unhealthy person.

 

[Teetertotter?]

Those that don't want to be vaccinated and get COVID, I think they will change their minds like 1000's, and tell everyone to get vaccinated. Then, if they do recover from COVID, they should be concerned about later effects on their system. We probably won't know for 5-10 years, if any medical follow-up was done on those that recovered, and reported to the public.

With only 50% vaccinated, wife and I wear masks shopping and last week, we dined out for the first time. Our 3rd shot is next Wednesday.

There isn't much we can do for those not wanting to get vaccinated. I would say 65%+ of the population does not have health insurance, homeowners/rental insurance, or car insurance.

 

[utopianemo]

“Ethical duty” is a nonsensical term in this day and age and place.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I also doubt that the Supreme Court would uphold a blanket "hard" mandate that allowed the government to use force to enter homes, strap people down, and vaccinate them at gunpoint. Having said that, I can't imagine any government organization here in the U.S. would attempt to implement this type of a mandate so it's probably a moot point.

Dude seriously WTF?

It’s just a hypothetical. You are of course entirely free to disagree with my doubts about would happen in this imaginary situation

 

[Danzilla31]

It’s just a hypothetical. You are of course entirely free to disagree with my doubts about would happen in this imaginary situation

government can sometimes work just like inflation. Whatever extra they can get its highly unlikely they'll give it back once things settle back down.

Now I have no problems with mandates in certain job sectors especially health care which is where I work. That's what we signed up for. It comes with the territory I got my vaccines done right away. I work with the vulnerable. But mandating it for everyone? Not such a big fan
because it can lead to hypotheticals like your exploring and that can unfortunately lead to policy that actually affects reality

Once any government gains the kind of power your hypothetically exploring whose to say it can't be used again? For whatever crises or reason they deem it necessary for? That's a slippery slope to go down.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Those that don't want to be vaccinated and get COVID, I think they will change their minds like 1000's, and tell everyone to get vaccinated. Then, if they do recover from COVID, they should be concerned about later effects on their system. We probably won't know for 5-10 years, if any medical follow-up was done on those that recovered, and reported to the public.

With only 50% vaccinated, wife and I wear masks shopping and last week, we dined out for the first time. Our 3rd shot is next Wednesday.

There isn't much we can do for those not wanting to get vaccinated. I would say 65%+ of the population does not have health insurance, homeowners/rental insurance, or car insurance.

Well, I was reading and searching a few days ago for info on covid immunity after getting covid.
It stated 1/3 of them don't have antibody so they are not immune, Russian roulette, and a good number have brain haze already. The rest, immunity vanes faster than with the vaccine.

 

[Auditor55]

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?
Which U.S. state has the lowest COVID-19 rate right now?

"It’s not California, home of America’s strictest mask and vaccine requirements. Nor is it Vermont, even though 71 percent of residents there have been fully inoculated — the most in the country."

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?

The U.S. state with the fewest daily COVID-19 cases per capita is the same one that recently had more than any other: Florida.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Mr._Clark]

government can sometimes work just like inflation. Whatever extra they can get its highly unlikely they'll give it back once things settle back down.

Now I have no problems with mandates in certain job sectors especially health care which is where I work. That's what we signed up for. It comes with the territory I got my vaccines done right away. I work with the vulnerable. But mandating it for everyone? Not such a big fan
because it can lead to hypotheticals like your exploring and that can unfortunately lead to policy that actually affects reality

Once any government gains the kind of power your hypothetically exploring whose to say it can't be used again? For whatever crises or reason they deem it necessary for? That's a slippery slope to go down.

Good grief. The point of the hypothetical is that government does not have unlimited power.

 

[Danzilla31]

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?
Which U.S. state has the lowest COVID-19 rate right now?

"It’s not California, home of America’s strictest mask and vaccine requirements. Nor is it Vermont, even though 71 percent of residents there have been fully inoculated — the most in the country."

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?

The U.S. state with the fewest daily COVID-19 cases per capita is the same one that recently had more than any other: Florida.

news.yahoo.com

It's not that simple tho.

Florida also had a big big surge right before this drop. So it's possible the Delta variant just burned through for now.

What are the population densities? Urban or rural? Here in Texas things are so spread out we mostly drive not rely on mass transportation. Our living spaces are usually not as congested as California. I believe it's the same in Florida

Covid likes to spread indoors and in tight spaces so there could be other factors at play in California as well

Maybe the strict mandates keep it from burning through the population and it hangs around more. Maybe they have stricter testing so the numbers are higher.

Too many variables to just flat out say one state is handling it better then another

 

[Danzilla31]

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?
Which U.S. state has the lowest COVID-19 rate right now?

"It’s not California, home of America’s strictest mask and vaccine requirements. Nor is it Vermont, even though 71 percent of residents there have been fully inoculated — the most in the country."

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?

The U.S. state with the fewest daily COVID-19 cases per capita is the same one that recently had more than any other: Florida.

news.yahoo.com

Still I'm feeling we may be coming to a time where Covid is something we have to live with. Covid just spread to far to fast. Just vaccinate and if you don't you take your chances like you would if you refuse vaccination against any other diseases.

 

[Danzilla31]

Good grief. The point of the hypothetical is that government does not have unlimited power.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Just being the devils advocate to the other side.

I wouldn't be so cautious about it right now but I can't help but feel that there are people that wouldn't mind imposing that very thing.

I don't think theyd realize even tho there intentions might be good the type of Pandoras box they might be opening

But like you said I'm not sure any government branch would be willing to pull it off. So it's probably just speculating. In a country that has more guns then people I'm thinking trying to break into everyone's house and strap them down at gunpoint for the shot miiigghht not go so well

 

[Jeff R.]

So I did not read the many comments just the title…I’m curious why folks who don’t want a vaccine should be asked to pay their medical bills. Should all smokers, alcoholics, obese just to name a few be abandoned by health care also. Let’s make sure we make this fair and ruin every persons life we think should be managed better. If we really want to get into costs incurred by society or health care, Then how about lazy people or those who choose to be unemployed, I guess we should stop all aid to everybody.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jeff R.]

I’m looking forward to my tax cuts that the government can extend my way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[highfigh]

I don't remember that thread so don't know the context.
But, one important thing to remember is that this virus is highly contagious whereas an unhealthy lifestyle is not no matter how close I may come to such an unhealthy person.

The contagious aspect in unhealthy lifestyles is when it's part of a trend and we all know that people like to follow trends, like fast food awareness and on the other side of that coin, fitness. Some eat FF because of the incredible 'convenience' that often includes waiting in line for a long time. But hey, at least they didn't have to take the time and make the effort to buy groceries, cook the food and clean the kitchen, even when there are so many meals that can be made from fresh or frozen ingredients that don't take long if they know how to do it. I like my woks- it takes far longer to prep (that doesn't take very long) than to cook and it's so much better than prepared meals or fast food.

IMO, fast food is an addiction that needs to be changed or stopped. Most FF items are incredibly unhealthy and people just can't get enough of it. I went to a local place for lunch and saw a woman whose waist had to be close to 6' around and she was in the line for frozen custard. I knew someone from grade school and high school who keeled over while cutting his lawn at the age of 46- at some point, he decided that eating McDonalds every day was a good idea.

 

[Dan]

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?
Which U.S. state has the lowest COVID-19 rate right now?

"It’s not California, home of America’s strictest mask and vaccine requirements. Nor is it Vermont, even though 71 percent of residents there have been fully inoculated — the most in the country."

Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?

The U.S. state with the fewest daily COVID-19 cases per capita is the same one that recently had more than any other: Florida.

news.yahoo.com

I would take anything coming from that states department of health about as seriously as Russia's very low reported rates. Florida has fired and prosecuted public health officials for trying to report the truth during the pandemic.

 

[cpp]

I would take anything coming from that states department of health about as seriously as Russia's very low reported rates. Florida has fired and prosecuted public health officials for trying to report the truth during the pandemic.

As a resident of Fl , have been for 57 years, DeStantis the Death Whisper is only looking at votes for his reelection next NOV , trying to pull in all the Trump voters. Think about this, in 2020, Ronny had mask mandates, closed boarders, supported social distancing, even had Disney and cruise ships slow down or scale back their businesses. But in 2021, he is wide open on everything. The man is only after votes, its so easy to see as he challenges Biden on covid issues and his Gov challengers (As of now, Nikki Fried, Florida's Commissioner of Agriculture and Consumer Services, and Congressman Charlie Crist (Governor of Florida (2007–2011), are the two Democrats who will run in Florida’s primary 2022) .

 

[highfigh]

As a resident of Fl , have been for 57 years, DeStantis the Death Whisper is only looking at votes for his reelection next NOV , trying to pull in all the Trump voters. Think about this, in 2020, Ronny had mask mandates, closed boarders, supported social distancing, even had Disney and cruise ships slow down or scale back their businesses. But in 2021, he is wide open on everything. The man is only after votes, its so easy to see as he challenges Biden on covid issues and his Gov challengers (As of now, Nikki Fried, Florida's Commissioner of Agriculture and Consumer Services, and Congressman Charlie Crist (Governor of Florida (2007–2011), are the two Democrats who will run in Florida’s primary 2022) .

We didn't have a vaccine in 2020, so shutting down and the other measures made more sense and we now have more than 219M people who have had at least one vaccine injection- big difference, since fewer people will get COVID or have severe symptoms.