Sub for just below 40Hz

[bumpy99]

I use my sub for my hi fi system only. It's needed for 40 Hz and below.

With just this region to cover, should I concentrate on quantity (low frequencies) or quality (best sounding drivers etc).

I may wrongly be thinking that audiophile notions don't really apply below 40 Hz just the ability to go deep, be fast, and crisp.

This has led to me concentrating on HT subs which are tuned this way Is this all wrong?

 

[NINaudio]

You want deep and accurate, with low distortion basically. Describing a sub as "fast" or "crisp" is pretty much meaningless.

What type of music do you listen to? What's your budget? Where are you located? How loud do you listen? How large is the area the sub is open to?

 

[bumpy99]

OK we all have our ways of expressing what we want.
I don't listen to rock or heavy metal, but like to hear a bass line and be pleasantly surprised by a big drum. I don't listen loud (70dB). I am situated in Herts UK. My budget is "whatever it takes" and my room is about 30 sq m.

In very broad terms I see the Hi Fi vs Home Theatre subs falling into two categories.

Hi Fi
A/B amps
High quality 'smaller' drivers
Sealed boxes
HT
Class D amps
Bigger drivers
Ported boxes

Because of the relative costs of these technologies the HT amps seem to go lower for the same money.

It seems frowned upon to use an HT sub for Hi Fi. But for use below 40Hz do these opinions still dominate?

 

[bumpy99]

For fast and crisp read NOT slow and ponderous

 

[ryanosaur]

My two main Speakers are capable to 25 and 34 Hz respectively and I still cross them at 80 to very capable subwoofers.
There are many instances where the capabilities of a Sub bring out aspects in a recording that aren’t reproduced by just sticking to “Music” frequencies. Humbly, I think it is wrong to not focus on other frequencies below 40 Hz. I should add, my system is mostly about Music reproduction, though built to handle HT as well. That said, Pipe Organ and Piano both range below 40 Hz.
Unless you listen to Pipe Organ and/or any electronic music, I would at least get a Sub capable to 25 Hz.

 

[ryanosaur]

OK we all have our ways of expressing what we want.
I don't listen to rock or heavy metal, but like to hear a bass line and be pleasantly surprised by a big drum. I don't listen loud (70dB). I am situated in Herts UK. My budget is "whatever it takes" and my room is about 30 sq m.

In very broad terms I see the Hi Fi vs Home Theatre subs falling into two categories.

Hi Fi
A/B amps
High quality 'smaller' drivers
Sealed boxes
HT
Class D amps
Bigger drivers
Ported boxes

Because of the relative costs of these technologies the HT amps seem to go lower for the same money.

It seems frowned upon to use an HT sub for Hi Fi. But for use below 40Hz do these opinions still dominate?

You are falling into a trap of audiophile dogma. The amp and alignment of the Sub, ported or sealed, the size of the driver, etc… all of these are just myths held over from a time long gone.
Modern design has made Class D amps perform better than class a/b. Modern design has made large drivers perform relentlessly well and are capable of outperforming a smaller sub as you describe. Modern modeling has allowed for ported cabinets to perform cleanly as we are able to predict port resonances and can better determine the velocity of air moving in them.

Basically, any well designed modern Subwoofer should pass muster and deliver clean articulate SQ at any audible frequency.

 

[bumpy99]

My two main Speakers are capable to 25 and 34 Hz respectively and I still cross them at 80 to very capable subwoofers.
There are many instances where the capabilities of a Sub bring out aspects in a recording that aren’t reproduced by just sticking to “Music” frequencies. Humbly, I think it is wrong to not focus on other frequencies below 40 Hz. I should add, my system is mostly about Music reproduction, though built to handle HT as well. That said, Pipe Organ and Piano both range below 40 Hz.
Unless you listen to Pipe Organ and/or any electronic music, I would at least get a Sub capable to 25 Hz.

My main speakers are 3 way open baffle with 15" Altec 416 VOTT drivers to handle upper bass frequencies. These are articulate and pure and everything I want aside from plumbing the depths. I have tried two individual REL subs and find once set up they barely show themselves till required and working alone one can just hear the human voice very much in the distance. I have no need for a sub to trample all over the purity of sound from my VOTT drivers and find in reality that I turn the sub upper frequencies down to their minimum using just the volume to control out[put

 

[Pogre]

If you integrate a sub properly it should never "step all over" your speakers. That's what a crossover is for.

I'd avoid REL for subs. They're way overpriced for the performance.

 

[bumpy99]

If you integrate a sub properly it should never "step all over" your speakers. That's what a crossover is for.

I'd avoid REL for subs. They're way overpriced for the performance.

"If you integrate a sub properly it should never "step all over" your speakers. That's what a crossover is for."
I think that's exactly what I was saying

"I'd avoid REL for subs. They're way overpriced for the performance."
So what would you recommend?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

"If you integrate a sub properly it should never "step all over" your speakers. That's what a crossover is for."
I think that's exactly what I was saying

"I'd avoid REL for subs. They're way overpriced for the performance."
So what would you recommend?

1) https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simple
2) HSU, SVS, Monoprice's Monolith THX line, Rhythmic, Arendal, Funk Audio, Outlaw Audio ... many more.
Budget - whatever it takes? - Just look for hi-end models of brands above. SVS in particular excels in all-around great subs, with great products, customer service, warranty, home trials. For Example SVS PB16 Ultra

 

[shadyJ]

There is no such thing as crisp bass below 40Hz, that is nonsense from the start. Anyone who thinks so is kidding themselves. And anyone who doubts that can see for themselves very easily; just put a low-pass filter on their system set to 40Hz and see what things sound like. It definitely is not "crisp."

 

[Pogre]

"If you integrate a sub properly it should never "step all over" your speakers. That's what a crossover is for."
I think that's exactly what I was saying

"I'd avoid REL for subs. They're way overpriced for the performance."
So what would you recommend?

I'm in the US so not entirely sure what's available to you. SVS make great subs but just very recently went through some significant price hikes, and... I'm trying to remember another brand you might have access to... XTZ I believe?

As far as which model or size that's entirely dependant on your room volume and listening habits, tho we tend to recommend ported over sealed.

 

[ryanosaur]

XTZ is EU. As is Arendal. Shady just did a review of one of the Arendal Subs, in fact, and it was pretty impressive:

Arendal 1723 2V Subwoofer Review

We were pleasantly surprised at our first encounter with an Arendal Sound product when they sent us the 1723 Monitors earlier this year, and maybe “pleasantly surprised” is a bit of an understatement; “blown away” is more apt. It wasn’t the least expensive speaker out there but we found it to be...

forums.audioholics.com

BK Elec is UK.

American companies, but possibly available to you: SVS and Monolith by Monoprice.
(Rythmik, Hsu and Outlaw are likely not good candidates for shipping overseas.)

In Canada, Nathan Funk (Funk Audio) and Harbottle are known to make very good Subwoofers. Nathan's work is burgeoning on the bespoke level. Dunno if he ship overseas.

Considering your main Speakers are open baffle, you may well need to look for something highly specialized. Sadly, Transmission Line Subs are not very common these days outside of DIY. Something like that, though, with the right driver would likely couple with your room better and be easier blend with you mains. Of course, a product like that is not small.
We have one member here that designs all of his own Speakers and is a huge proponent of TL designs. @TLS Guy might be able to help you out if you wanted to pursue something custom, perhaps.

 

[bumpy99]

You are falling into a trap of audiophile dogma. The amp and alignment of the Sub, ported or sealed, the size of the driver, etc… all of these are just myths held over from a time long gone.
Modern design has made Class D amps perform better than class a/b. Modern design has made large drivers perform relentlessly well and are capable of outperforming a smaller sub as you describe. Modern modeling has allowed for ported cabinets to perform cleanly as we are able to predict port resonances and can better determine the velocity of air moving in them.

Basically, any well designed modern Subwoofer should pass muster and deliver clean articulate SQ at any audible frequency.

Are you really saying that all subs sound the same now?

 

[ryanosaur]

Are you really saying that all subs sound the same now?

Nowhere did I suggest anything about "sound the same."

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Are you really saying that all subs sound the same now?

All well-designed subs operating within their limits playing at the same volume will sound extremely similar.
BUT, playing low bass is very much the equation of moving large amounts of air or pressurizing the room.
Small-sized subs could do that only for smaller rooms, larger rooms require physically larger subs.

 

[Pogre]

Are you really saying that all subs sound the same now?

No. Of course not. However, the idea of "for HT" or "for music" isn't so black and white anymore as well designed modern subs should work for either application whether ported or sealed (tho sealed is always a compromise for size over performance). A good sub is a good sub and should perform equally well for music or HT. SVS, XTZ, Monoprice and Arendal (Arendal just recently knocked it out of the park with their new sub) are some well respected manufacturers that may available to you. Your room volume is what will determine which model would work best.

 

[Pogre]

Money no object I'd be taking a hard look at Arendal. Those look like some pretty amazing subs.

 

[shadyJ]

Money no object I'd be taking a hard look at Arendal. Those look like some pretty amazing subs.

Arendal is not a money-no-object sub. It's not the cheapest sub out there, but it's pretty good for the dosh. If you want a really good money-no-object sub...

 

[Pogre]

Arendal is not a money-no-object sub. It's not the cheapest sub out there, but it's pretty good for the dosh. If you want a really good money-no-object sub...

Right, tho I did mean of the 4 I recommended, but yes for sure that Perlisten sub is a beautiful monster!