Power Amp choice for X4700h

[daka]

What is the best choice for 6.1 (4.1.2) Atmos setup with X4700h and KEF R3 LR

- Emotiva A2 and A4 - run Denon in preamp mode

- Emotiva XPA-2 or Cambridge Azur 851W

- Emotiva A4 - run LR fronts from Denon rest from Emotiva A4

What would make biggest impact? Would like to avoid spending 1k and getting marginal to no differnce obviously.

 

[panteragstk]

Before you buy an amp, test the receiver with your speakers. You may find you don't need one.

However, with the speakers having a minimum impedance of 3.2ohms, you may find out pretty quickly that you do need an amp.

You won't find a lot of love for Emotiva around here though. Plenty of great amps out there. Monoprice/ATI is always a good recommendation.

 

[PENG]

What is the best choice for 6.1 (4.1.2) Atmos setup with X4700h and KEF R3 LR

- Emotiva A2 and A4 - run Denon in preamp mode

- Emotiva XPA-2 or Cambridge Azur 851W

- Emotiva A4 - run LR fronts from Denon rest from Emotiva A4

What would make biggest impact? Would like to avoid spending 1k and getting marginal to no differnce obviously.

If you are going to use the preamp mode then your best choice would seem to be the Hypex or Purifi based power amplifiers. Aside from the top rated (based on specs and measurements) Benchmark AHB2, nothing can touch those class D amps at the moment.

Those talks of how one amp sounds better than another are mostly subjective, often imagined. The fact is, bench measurements don't lie, ears/brains do (obviously unintentionally). That's as long as measurements are done by a credible source, and the reviewer knows how and what to measure.

Measurements by Audioholics.com and Audiosciencereview.com are quite reliable afaic..

Some example of good power amps that cost less, or not much more than Emotiva's:

Review and Measurements of Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
ATI AT4002 Class AB and AT522NC Class D Amplifier Review Shootout | Audioholics
ATI AT522NC Stereo Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Outlaw Model 5000 Five Channel Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

 

[Benni777]

If you are going to use the preamp mode then your best choice would seem to be the Hypex or Purifi based power amplifiers. Aside from the top rated (based on specs and measurements) Benchmark AHB2, nothing can touch those class D amps at the moment.

Those talks of how one amp sounds better than another are mostly subjective, often imagined. The fact is, bench measurements don't lie, ears/brains do (obviously unintentionally). That's as long as measurements are done by a credible source, and the reviewer knows how and what to measure.

Measurements by Audioholics.com and Audiosciencereview.com are quite reliable afaic..

Some example of good power amps that cost less, or not much more than Emotiva's:

Review and Measurements of Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
ATI AT4002 Class AB and AT522NC Class D Amplifier Review Shootout | Audioholics
ATI AT522NC Stereo Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Outlaw Model 5000 Five Channel Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

Peng,, can you refer some of these Hypex or Purifi based power amplifiers??? I'm interested.

 

[PENG]

Peng,, can you refer some of these Hypex or Purifi based power amplifiers??? I'm interested.

You buy the modules directly from Them if you want to go the DIY route but it will likely cost you more than buying from a couple of OEMs such as:

Buckeye amps
VTV amps
Audiophonics (a little more expensive than VTV)

Or you can pay much more for ATI, Marantz (integrated only) or NAD's.

 

[Benni777]

You buy the modules directly from Them if you want to go the DIY route but it will likely cost you more than buying from a couple of OEMs such as:

Buckeye amps
VTV amps
Audiophonics (a little more expensive than VTV)

Or you can pay much more for ATI, Marantz (integrated only) or NAD's.

Peng,
Gotcha!!! I know I'm slightly diverting from topic but, are there any schematics online to follow for a build? Parts list etc, etc? It would be interesting to build a 5 or 7 channel or perhaps multiple monos or stereos I suppose.

 

[ryanosaur]

These are literally plug and play type modules.
Unless you get into trying to mod them in some way (I've seen people talk about changing a resistor to effect the gain) or build your own input buffer stage...
That is way outside my paygrade, though.

However, I will say the product being offered by Buckeye really does seem legit if you aren't looking for additional flash. And the differences between Purifi and Hypex are really just academic in that they are both exceding what the human ear can detect in terms of pure performance.

 

[PENG]

Peng,
Gotcha!!! I know I'm slightly diverting from topic but, are there any schematics online to follow for a build? Parts list etc, etc? It would be interesting to build a 5 or 7 channel or perhaps multiple monos or stereos I suppose.

By the way, you may be interested in reading another review, aside from the usual AH and ASR's:

For objective measurements:
SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - The Purifi Puzzle, Part One: The Measured Performance of the Eigentakt Amplifier

For subjective measurement:
SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - Purifi Audio's Pint-Sized Powerhouses

For DIY, you can buy from the following places but there are no schematic as such as those are modules. You only need a soldering iron and a screw driver.

Purifi:
Amplifiers Archives - PURIFI (purifi-audio.com)
DIYclassd.com
ghentaudio --- Purifi EVAL1 Stereo case-kit

Unfortunately you will have to buy the amp modules, power supply and the case from 3 different places, and the power supply apparently is out of stock, may have to wait until November.

Hypex (buy direct)
DIYclassd.com

Hypex (lowest cost OEM)
Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement! | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

If I remember right, Buckeye said at one time he would send you the kit for you to DIY, but the saving would be very negligible.

 

[Benni777]

These are literally plug and play type modules.
Unless you get into trying to mod them in some way (I've seen people talk about changing a resistor to effect the gain) or build your own input buffer stage...
That is way outside my paygrade, though.

However, I will say the product being offered by Buckeye really does seem legit if you aren't looking for additional flash. And the differences between Purifi and Hypex are really just academic in that they are both exceding what the human ear can detect in terms of pure performance.

Got it, thanks

 

[Benni777]

By the way, you may be interested in reading another review, aside from the usual AH and ASR's:

For objective measurements:
SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - The Purifi Puzzle, Part One: The Measured Performance of the Eigentakt Amplifier

For subjective measurement:
SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - Purifi Audio's Pint-Sized Powerhouses

For DIY, you can buy from the following places but there are no schematic as such as those are modules. You only need a soldering iron and a screw driver.

Purifi:
Amplifiers Archives - PURIFI (purifi-audio.com)
DIYclassd.com
ghentaudio --- Purifi EVAL1 Stereo case-kit

Unfortunately you will have to buy the amp modules, power supply and the case from 3 different places, and the power supply apparently is out of stock, may have to wait until November.

Hypex (buy direct)
DIYclassd.com

Hypex (lowest cost OEM)
Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement! | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

If I remember right, Buckeye said at one time he would send you the kit for you to DIY, but the saving would be very negligible.

Thanks again great insight. going to look into all this.

 

[panteragstk]

Check this out for a DIY amp build.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/pass-diy-f5-amp-build.120651/

 

[lovinthehd]

My first thought is you expect too much from installing an external amp; marginal or no difference is quite possible in any case with any power amp. Are you reaching the limits of the avr's amps now?

 

[Pogre]

These are literally plug and play type modules.
Unless you get into trying to mod them in some way (I've seen people talk about changing a resistor to effect the gain) or build your own input buffer stage...
That is way outside my paygrade, though.

However, I will say the product being offered by Buckeye really does seem legit if you aren't looking for additional flash. And the differences between Purifi and Hypex are really just academic in that they are both exceding what the human ear can detect in terms of pure performance.

I wish I was aware of them when I was shopping around. I would have totally jumped on the bandwagon and saved a few bucks.

 

[PENG]

My first thought is you expect too much from installing an external amp; marginal or no difference is quite possible in any case with any power amp. Are you reaching the limits of the avr's amps now?

You are right, but aren't you tired of telling people to use that spl calculator to get an estimate first? So it may be time if people want to get an amp, just help them get a really good one, one that will measure on the bench better than their AVR's. I find that most of the time you can't convince people that adding an amp won't make an audible difference, most have to learn it the hard way, even then some may never come around and will stick to their belief no matter what.

 

[PENG]

Thanks again great insight. going to look into all this.

Just thought of something, most of those amps don't come with XLR inputs. For it to work well with your Denon AVR, you need to spend some money on a very good RCA to XLR cable, one that is done according the the diagram and note that Hypex provided. March Audio sells one of those, but quite expensive, Benchmark has one that should be good, and reasonably cheap.

 

[lovinthehd]

You are right, but aren't you tired of telling people to use that spl calculator to get an estimate first? So it may be time if people want to get an amp, just help them get a really good one, one that will measure on the bench better than their AVR's. I find that most of the time you can't convince people that adding an amp won't make an audible difference, most have to learn it the hard way, even then some may never come around and will stick to their belief no matter what.

LOL yes sometimes I just say scratch the itch, and if so, get as powerful an amp as you can. An amp that only provides a marginal increase in power just isn't worth the effort IMO. As to using a Purifi or Hypex amp, have to also consider sensitivity may not be ideal.

 

[Verdinut]

Redco Audio can make such cable at a reasonable price. I had some made a few years ago and they did a very good assembly on RCA to XLR cables:

Redco Audio - Audio/Video Supplies and Accessories, Custom Cables and Panels, and more

 

[PENG]

LOL yes sometimes I just say scratch the itch, and if so, get as powerful an amp as you can. An amp that only provides a marginal increase in power just isn't worth the effort IMO. As to using a Purifi or Hypex amp, have to also consider sensitivity may not be ideal.

Agreed on the sensitivity watch, that's why my first response was conditioned on him using preamp mode. That way he would be able to expect the pre out signal to remain very clean up to over 3 V, to take full advantage of the high SINAD of the Purifi amps, whether that means audibly better sound quality, or not (that depends, more likely not).

 

[lovinthehd]

Agreed on the sensitivity watch, that's why my first response was conditioned on him using preamp mode. That way he would be able to expect the pre out signal to remain very clean up to over 3 V, to take full advantage of the high SINAD of the Purifi amps, whether that equals audible benefit or not (likely not).

Are any Purifi/Hypex amps made using unbalanced inputs? Don't think I've seen any....

High SINAD is nice, but way overthought (particularly on asr).

ps Forgot about an ATI hypex amp with unbalanced inputs....but can't think of any others...

 

[PENG]

Are any Purifi/Hypex amps made using unbalanced inputs? Don't think I've seen any....

High SINAD is nice, but way overthought (particularly on asr).

I agree, but there is no reason for competitor not to work on their design, layout and parts choice to achieve results better or similar to that of the Denon AVRs. Surely to me SINAD 80 or 100 would make no difference, but to some, under certain conditions, they may hear a difference.

92 or 102 dB (0.0008%THD) may seem "overthought" as you put it, but that's ideal condition, when you factor in the noise from interconnections, power supplies, power amps etc., and at the higher frequencies than those from a 1 kHz fundamental, the overall results may be quite a bit less. So it doesn't hurt to aim higher than one may need for transparency to begin with.

Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Below are the SINAD vs output voltage curves for the X6700H (Amir measured it up to higher than 4 V, but only for the X6700H), I think he assume the 3700/4700/8500 should be similar.

Note that to achieve 4.4 V, he had to set volume to 90, that would be +10, and that's with input signal at 0 dBFS, that would be about 110 dB from the listening position. Nobody does that in the real world I hope.