Seeking input on crossover settings

[ddjr]

Sounds good, I thank you for the tips. I do have a lot to learn to be fluent here. I will download the manuals and do some educatin' on myself

 

[Cjamrr]

my question about crossover settings through auto set up through Onkyo avr. All my speakers were set at 40 Hz and Sub at 80Hz With my microphone at its sweet spot. I found that it sounds better than if I turn everything to 80 Hz and Sub at 120. Can someone explain if this is safe for center channel and surround speakers. I set my left and right fronts to large and all seven speakers at 40 Hz with Sub at 80 Hz. Also using a RELSX 212 subwoofer which the manual stated to turn your fronts to large.

 

[lovinthehd]

my question about crossover settings through auto set up through Onkyo avr. All my speakers were set at 40 Hz and Sub at 80Hz With my microphone at its sweet spot. I found that it sounds better than if I turn everything to 80 Hz and Sub at 120. Can someone explain if this is safe for center channel and surround speakers. I set my left and right fronts to large and all seven speakers at 40 Hz with Sub at 80 Hz. Also using a RELSX 212 subwoofer which the manual stated to turn your fronts to large.

A crossover between speaker and sub is just one number, suspect what you're calling a sub at 80/120 is just the LPF of LFE (just affect the range of the .1 channel and the normal setting is 120, the usual limit of content in that channel).

I'd start at 80 crossover, and experiment both up and down from there. If you set your speakers to large that simply means do not use bass management (i.e. no crossover for that channel/speaker). Many avrs if detecting an f3 (-3dB point) in a speaker will set it to large (the marketing dept doesn't want to tell you your stuff is "small"?). I'd ignore Rel's advice and just use the avr for bass management and also connect it only thru the line level connections (rca ones) and not use the high level connections (i.e. speaker level connection). Or not, see if you have a preference, but that's mostly about using older gear without sub pre-outs and/or bass management.

Not sure why you think a connection method or crossover would be unsafe, tho.

 

[Trebdp83]

Would help to have receiver model info as well as type of speakers and total number of them as there will be a few issues with the setup depending on the speaker size assignments.

 

[Cjamrr]

Surround sound 7.2
Onkyo TX RZ1100 avr, McIntosh MC2700 preamp, Anthem MCA325 (for center and surround) Carver M-1.0t 400watts (for front L/R).
Speakers-Focal kanta 3 Fronts, Kanta center, Focal Aria 906 surround, JBL s310II surround rear. 2 -JL Audio e212 subs.
I may be trading in my JL’s for the REL. so right now my JL’s are disconnected from my HT & 2 channel system.
I am demoing the REL sx212 which is using the REL’s Nuetrik Speakon connector to connect to the amplifier speaker terminals on the Carver amp. Where as I had the JL subs hooked up from the Onkyo for HT bypassed through McIntosh preamp for 2 channel music.
I originally had the 2 JL subs set at 120 and all my speakers set at small at 80 Hz. The REL manual states that the 2 front speakers should be on large so as to work with the sub crossover at 34 Hz and using the RCA from the Onkyo Sub output to the .1 LFE input on the REL for HT which like you say I hope that the fronts are not overtaking the bass management.
Every time I calibrate the speakers through the Onkyo, my crossovers settings are all at 40 Hz with the Sub being at 80 Hz, so I would always change it to everything 80 with Sub at 120.
Now I decided try HT with Onkyo’s calibration setting at 40 Hz and Sub at 80Hz. Could it possibly be to muddy with Sub going as as high as 120 Hz? I seem to think with all my speakers at 40 seems I have better detail. Everywhere I look seems everybody has their speakers at 80/120. I never hear about anybody doing anything different. I just figured it must not be good. But now I am liking 40/80 Hz. But like you say to experiment up and down from 80 Hz.
I’m still learning all this stuff, Thank you for replying. I like to hear your input. I’m not as experienced as you guys are. But loving the sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sounds like a mess. I'd forget Rel altogether myself, just much better value out there let alone their silly hookup recommendations....YMMV. Crossover without measurements on taste alone, who knows? In the end it is preference over reference, tho.....

 

[Trebdp83]

Ok, lots going on there. I love me some McIntosh pieces just for the eye candy. But, that Onkyo is not lacking and I’d let it handle it all to be honest. I’d go with two subs and many here can recommend quality units at various price points. This cheapskate isn’t the one to ask. One thing to keep in mind on the Onkyo is that when you are playing with the crossover settings and ever set the Fronts to Full Band, you must set the Double Bass setting to ON or you will not get a signal to the sub pre out when playing two channel content.

I’m foolishly and continually tinkering with my modest setup and recently switched to Full Band on all channels with Double Bass On and use the graphic equalizer to adjust the levels on each channel. Just couldn’t get it all quite the way I wanted it at 80, 60 or 40hz. I actually turned off the LPF. But, setting it lower than 120hz can result in a loss of bass. I noticed it once when watching a concert in DD 5.1. That bass was assigned to the sub and was not available in the fronts and it was clipped a bit with a setting of 80hz.

Anyway, hook it up as you wish and play with it until it sounds the way you like it. Some play it by ear, some live and die by the numbers. I like fiddling endlessly with settings and am sure I’ll change it again soon enough. Somebody with more knowledge and experience will come around here soon enough and tell you I’m completely nuts. But, they won’t be completely right, or wrong.

 

[Cjamrr]

Ok, lots going on there. I love me some McIntosh pieces just for the eye candy. But, that Onkyo is not lacking and I’d let it handle it all to be honest. I’d go with two subs and many here can recommend quality units at various price points. This cheapskate isn’t the one to ask. One thing to keep in mind on the Onkyo is that when you are playing with the crossover settings and ever set the Fronts to Full Band, you must set the Double Bass setting to ON or you will not get a signal to the sub pre out when playing two channel content.

I’m foolishly and continually tinkering with my modest setup and recently switched to Full Band on all channels with Double Bass On and use the graphic equalizer to adjust the levels on each channel. Just couldn’t get it all quite the way I wanted it at 80, 60 or 40hz. I actually turned off the LPF. But, setting it lower than 120hz can result in a loss of bass. I noticed it once when watching a concert in DD 5.1. That bass was assigned to the sub and was not available in the fronts and it was clipped a bit with a setting of 80hz.

Anyway, hook it up as you wish and play with it until it sounds the way you like it. Some play it by ear, some live and die by the numbers. I like fiddling endlessly with settings and am sure I’ll change it again soon enough. Somebody with more knowledge and experience will come around here soon enough and tell you I’m completely nuts. But, they won’t be completely right, or wrong.

Sounds like a mess. I'd forget Rel altogether myself, just much better value out there let alone their silly hookup recommendations....YMMV. Crossover without measurements on taste alone, who knows? In the end it is preference over reference, tho.....

Thank you for your input, however the 1 REL sounds much better than a pair of my JL audio E212. The guys at my favorite stereo shop recommend keeping all speakers at small at 80 Hz with the Sub at 120. However isn’t the subwoofer best at 80 Hz and lower than 120. I would think that if you have large speakers all around that you would want them to do some of lower bass with the sub concentrating more of what the speakers can’t do which is your roll off of the speakers to where the subs kick in. I hope I making sense I just don’t know how to relate to audiophiles expert experience since I am very non-educated in electronics.

 

[sterling shoote]

Sidebar: I just inherited a Marantz NR1200 Receiver. This unit is 2.1, having subwoofer preout with low pass crossover options, from about 40 Hz to about 250 Hz which can be set "on the fly". Setting on the fly made it clear a 40 Hz setting was appropriate; and, although the receiver has no high pass filter function, that does not seem to be meaningful for desired results. Now, I also run a Parasound 2.1 preamp to same mains and sub and this system has both high pass, as well as low pass adjustable filters, which are each set to 50 Hz for desired results. And finally, for 5.1 pleasures, my OPPO-205 manages bass, whereby mains are set to "small" and crossover is set to 60 Hz for best results. What I make of all of this is sub adjustment is not a universal concept and thus the OP help line here does not have the sort of value to the OP we hope for.

 

[Trebdp83]

I understand the thinking around roll off. Signals too low for mains based on the crossover will be sent to the sub in a two channel scenario, but when listening to a multichannel track, there are signals dedicated to the LFE channel that can go as high as 120hz as that is the cap. These signals are not rerouted to speakers outside of the LFE channel because the LPF is set at 80hz. One may never notice a negative effect with an 80hz setting for the LPF and there is no law that says one must have it set to 120hz, yet.

Everybody has an opinion about settings and equipment. Sometimes, too little isn’t enough. Sometimes, more is just more. Then, you have full on overkill. Good sound can be had at reasonably low cost these days and the point of deminishing returns exists. But, there is something to be said for equipment that is as pleasurable to look at as it is to listen to in a system. Everybody decides for themselves how much that is worth to them. I believe one good sub sounds better than two lesser subs. Two great subs would sound better still.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you for your input, however the 1 REL sounds much better than a pair of my JL audio E212. The guys at my favorite stereo shop recommend keeping all speakers at small at 80 Hz with the Sub at 120. However isn’t the subwoofer best at 80 Hz and lower than 120. I would think that if you have large speakers all around that you would want them to do some of lower bass with the sub concentrating more of what the speakers can’t do which is your roll off of the speakers to where the subs kick in. I hope I making sense I just don’t know how to relate to audiophiles expert experience since I am very non-educated in electronics.

Still not sure what you mean by sub at 120....are you using the low pass filter on the sub amp rather than maxing it out altogether? Or is it the LPF of LFE?

 

[Trebdp83]

I’m sure Cj is referring to the LPF setting in the Onkyo. No telling though on the sub’s knob.

 

[Teetertotter?]

Just let your AVR do the auto speaker calibration. IMHO. Life is good!!

 

[Cjamrr]

Still not sure what you mean by sub at 120....are you using the low pass filter on the sub amp rather than maxing it out altogether? Or is it the LPF of LFE?

Yeah, my bad. I meant the LPF of LFE. My AVR does the auto calibration and this is what results I get for 7 speakers, (40 Hz with subs LPF of LFE at 80 Hz). Where as before and every time after auto calibration, I would change it to all 80 Hz all around with Sub at 120Hz. Only from reading that that’s what everybody does. Now the REL, Which the operating manual says the crossover on the back of sub should set at 34 Hz give or take a few clicks. So technically I’m using the RCA connector to connect to the REL .1/LFE output to the AVR sub 1.
For 2 channel music the REL has a unique connector that connects to the high level input out of the back of the sub and going to the amplifier speaker terminals for 2 channel music. On top of that, there is 2 volume knobs 1 for HT and 1 for 2 channel music.
I don’t know all the stuff off the top of my head, I’m just taking a long time to write this paragraph to make sure I am not causing any confusion. So I am reading the manual as I write this.

 

[Trebdp83]

The REL is covering all of the bases for various connection types. You need only use the LFE input port to connect a cable to one of the Onkyo’s sub pre outs. I’d set the volume knob on the sub anywhere from 30% to 50%, though it might come in hot by 40, 45%. Set the crossover knob to its maximum at 120hz. Now, this won’t mean anything if you set the Onkyo’s LPF to 80hz. But, you will undermine the Onkyo’s LPF setting if you set the knob to anything lower than the setting of the LPF so don’t worry about setting it to maximum. Interesting that the max setting is 120hz, isn’t it?

Now, I do see that REL recommends a Large setting for the Front speakers when using the High level inputs for stereo as well as using the LFE input simultaneously. Onkyo’s designation for Large is Full Band. Just remember that setting the Front speakers to Full Band means having to turn on Double Bass in the Onkyo as well or it will not send a signal to the sub when playing back a two channel signal. This is because it thinks that if you set the Fronts to Full Band, they do not need the extra help. The name is silly. I might have called it FBAS(Full Band and Sub).

Another thing to remember when playing two channel signals is that you will not get a signal to the sub if you select the DIRECT mode for playback in the Onkyo. It matters not if Double Bass is on. DIRECT mode is just that, an unmolested signal with no processing, bass management or any available adjustments. So, while it will send a signal to the sub while playing back a 5.1 track, because there is a designated LFE, it will not do so playing back a 2.0 track. The Front speakers will receive a full, unaltered signal in DIRECT mode regardless of any other settings while playing back a 2.0 track.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, my bad. I meant the LPF of LFE. My AVR does the auto calibration and this is what results I get for 7 speakers, (40 Hz with subs LPF of LFE at 80 Hz). Where as before and every time after auto calibration, I would change it to all 80 Hz all around with Sub at 120Hz. Only from reading that that’s what everybody does. Now the REL, Which the operating manual says the crossover on the back of sub should set at 34 Hz give or take a few clicks. So technically I’m using the RCA connector to connect to the REL .1/LFE output to the AVR sub 1.
For 2 channel music the REL has a unique connector that connects to the high level input out of the back of the sub and going to the amplifier speaker terminals for 2 channel music. On top of that, there is 2 volume knobs 1 for HT and 1 for 2 channel music.
I don’t know all the stuff off the top of my head, I’m just taking a long time to write this paragraph to make sure I am not causing any confusion. So I am reading the manual as I write this.

Well Rel may think it's unique but its simply a high level XLR connector. Personally I've not run into an auto setup that ever changes the LPF of LFE....but it should simply be set to 120 in any case. I'd avoid using the Rel for a low pass filter (it's not a crossover, as it does nothing for a high pass for the speakers). Some like the high level connection like Rel promotes but I don't particularly think its useful/necessary. Too much futzing around "for music" when using the avr for bass management certainly can work fine on its own, or not using bass management and using the high level connection and just the sub's low pass for "blending". YMMV.

 

[Cjamrr]

The REL is covering all of the bases for various connection types. You need only use the LFE input port to connect a cable to one of the Onkyo’s sub pre outs. I’d set the volume knob on the sub anywhere from 30% to 50%, though it might come in hot by 40, 45%. Set the crossover knob to its maximum at 120hz. Now, this won’t mean anything if you set the Onkyo’s LPF to 80hz. But, you will undermine the Onkyo’s LPF setting if you set the knob to anything lower than the setting of the LPF so don’t worry about setting it to maximum. Interesting that the max setting is 120hz, isn’t it?

Now, I do see that REL recommends a Large setting for the Front speakers when using the High level inputs for stereo as well as using the LFE input simultaneously. Onkyo’s designation for Large is Full Band. Just remember that setting the Front speakers to Full Band means having to turn on Double Bass in the Onkyo as well or it will not send a signal to the sub when playing back a two channel signal. This is because it thinks that if you set the Fronts to Full Band, they do not need the extra help. The name is silly. I might have called it FBAS(Full Band and Sub).

Another thing to remember when playing two channel signals is that you will not get a signal to the sub if you select the DIRECT mode for playback in the Onkyo. It matters not if Double Bass is on. DIRECT mode is just that, an unmolested signal with no processing, bass management or any available adjustments. So, while it will send a signal to the sub while playing back a 5.1 track, because there is a designated LFE, it will not do so playing back a 2.0 track. The Front speakers will receive a full, unaltered signal in DIRECT mode regardless of any other settings while playing back a 2.0 track.

I only use the Onkyo AVR for HT that bypasses through my McIntosh Preamp to the 2 channel Carver Amp for the front 2 speakers.
My record player and Blusound node II is connected to the McIntosh MC2700 tube preamp. The Nuetrik speakton connection to the high level input on the REL is connected to my 2 channel Carver amp speaker terminals. This cable plugs into the back of the Sub sort of like a balance connection and the other end is three wires red for right yellow for lap and black for one of the negative speaker terminals on the amplifier. This is way different than what I am used to so I had to read the manual.
I like what you’re saying about turn up the crossover to its Maximum 120Hz. Yes it goes up to 120Hz. I’m checking out the double bass through the Onkyo but that is for two channel music only, not home theater? You have been very helpful and I appreciate it. I can tell if you were my neighbor, I would have you over helping me out, lol.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well Rel may think it's unique but its simply a high level XLR connector. Personally I've not run into an auto setup that ever changes the LPF of LFE....but it should simply be set to 120 in any case. I'd avoid using the Rel for a low pass filter (it's not a crossover, as it does nothing for a high pass for the speakers). Some like the high level connection like Rel promotes but I don't particularly think its useful/necessary. Too much futzing around "for music" when using the avr for bass management certainly can work fine on its own, or not using bass management and using the high level connection and just the sub's low pass for "blending". YMMV.

PS my bad, not xlr but speakon connector....but still simply a high level connection. I do use speakons on my diy speakers and subs, tho.

 

[Trebdp83]

Well, with HT, multichannel movie tracks, you are dealing with discreet 5.1 and 7.1 tracks. Now, there is metadata for atmos and DTS:X tracks. But, the point is that the low end stuff has its own channel, the LFE channel (.1). This is different than setting a crossover to the fronts and sending anything below it to the sub in a two channel scenario. If one has all seven channels set to Full Band, no signal would be sent to the sub with Double Bass set to OFF when playing two channel music. But, a signal would be sent to the sub if playing a multichannel track with Double Bass set to OFF because the low bass information has been sent to the dedicated LFE channel. If one had a crossover for the seven channels set to 80hz all the way around and a sub with an LPF of 120hz, the sub would handle not only the info in the dedicated LFE channel, which could go up to 120hz, but also the signals below the crossover point of the other speakers.

You wouldn't have to ask me twice to come over and help. I could stare at the McIntosh all day. But, without telling you, I'd unhook everything and just hook up the Onkyo. Then, I'd tell you we were going to listen to some 24/192 tracks streamed from Qobuz. You'd think I was using the Blue Sound node to send music to your current setup and we would both comment on the sweet sounds. Then, I'd confess to sending the music from the DTS Play-Fi app in my phone directly to the Onkyo. When the many enthusiasts and experts around here say that the speakers make the biggest difference in a setup, they are absolutely right. While different processors, amps and receivers might sound different out of the box, tweaks can be made to level them out. How good those adjustments sound depends entirely on the speakers.Everybody has their favorite brand of hardware and speakers at various price points. Some here build their own amazing speakers. If using quality components, speakers and wiring, regardless of price, all should sound good. I understand some wanting more overhead in their systems and those folks may turn to separates. I like as few links in the chain as possible in my modest setup so as to avoid issues. More components, cords and wires, more problems. You've got some nice equipment there and you sound happy with it all so simply sit back and enjoy it. But, if you go Full Band on the Fronts, remember to turn on Double Bass if you want sub activity while listening to two channel music. Now that I think of it, the Blue Sound Node 2i has a sub pre out that is always active, but that is a whole other can of worms.

 

[Cjamrr]

A crossover between speaker and sub is just one number, suspect what you're calling a sub at 80/120 is just the LPF of LFE (just affect the range of the .1 channel and the normal setting is 120, the usual limit of content in that channel).

I'd start at 80 crossover, and experiment both up and down from there. If you set your speakers to large that simply means do not use bass management (i.e. no crossover for that channel/speaker). Many avrs if detecting an f3 (-3dB point) in a speaker will set it to large (the marketing dept doesn't want to tell you your stuff is "small"?). I'd ignore Rel's advice and just use the avr for bass management and also connect it only thru the line level connections (rca ones) and not use the high level connections (i.e. speaker level connection). Or not, see if you have a preference, but that's mostly about using older gear without sub pre-outs and/or bass management.

Not sure why you think a connection method or crossover would be unsafe, tho.

I went back to the original crossover settings on my avr for HT. Where I bought my Focal Kantas, the store owner does not recommend changing speakers to large for HT and to stay with 80 Hz for all speakers and let the sub do the work. All speakers are now set to small at 80 Hz and my Sub at LPF of LFE is 120Hz. No double bass. The AVR is now controlling the sub from the AVR sub output to the .1 LFE input on the REL.
My AVR is going through my Tube preamp as a passthru to my 2 channel front speakers amp for HT. The 2 channel tube preamp is using the newtrik speakon connections from the amps speaker terminals to the high pass input of the REL sub for Music only.
I traded my pair of JL Audio e212 Subs in for the REL sx212. I am much happier with the new REL. Now I need 1 more to enhance and balance the 2 channel music. Does anyone lower crossover settings lower than 80 Hz for surround speakers.
How about Gene DellaSalla’s new RBH HT. I would like to know his crossover settings just for fun.