Should Home Theater Embrace Gaming to Save the Industry?

Should Home Theater Stores Embrace Gaming?

  • Yes. It will take gaming to the next level and get the young generationinterested into home theater.

    Votes: 18 60.0%
  • No. The kids are all right.

    Votes: 6 20.0%
  • What for? I'm still rockin 8 bit Commodore 64 and Coleco.

    Votes: 6 20.0%

  • Total voters
    30
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
LG Display makes the panels. LG Electronics buys its panels from them like everybody else. Samsung reportedly going to buy millions of panels from them soon as well. They were holding out but LCD costs are up and lots of cheap competition. Was leaning toward Sony, but not buying any more products promising features via future firmware update. Though no longer new and not quite perfect in every way, the LG CX has the best feature set for the money and a picture nobody can call bad.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
LG Display makes the panels. LG Electronics buys its panels from them like everybody else. Samsung reportedly going to buy millions of panels from them soon as well. They were holding out but LCD costs are up and lots of cheap competition. Was leaning toward Sony, but not buying any more products promising features via future firmware update. Though no longer new and not quite perfect in every way, the LG CX has the best feature set for the money and a picture nobody can call bad.
I'm also very vary of buying a product based upon promised features to be implemented in a future firmware.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I'm easier than that. The product either has the feature or it doesn't. "It will eventually" means nothing now. Too much vaporware exists for anyone to believe this anymore.

To me, when a manufacturer says something "will be available via firmware update" either means they know how to do it and chose not to put it in the release, or they think they can figure it out at some point. Neither inspire confidence.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
This sounds a lot like the delayed implementation of DTS: X Pro on several platforms, and Yamaha's strategy of "fixing" their Gen2 HDMI 2.1 chipset... "later this year."
While some are actually implemented and do work... others are just unfulfilled promises.
:confused:
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, and we have all had firmware updates that fixed or added one thing only to ruin something else. It needs to have everything you want out of the box. Any later improvements are just gravy. Smart apps, though convenient, are a bigger problem than gaming features. They aren't generally as good as those found in dedicated streaming devices and you run into ARC/eARC issues. At some point Netflix and others drop support for them as newer sets come out.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
^^ I don't mind it so much in the TV, but the BluRay players don't need apps, and frankly neither does my console. Perhaps if it was a simple click-to-add function as it's all software, much like other apps on my Sony TV were (Disney+, CBS All Access (yes I know that has changed), HBO Max, etc.). In that regard, it is no different from a new computer: add what you need/want, but forget the rest of the bloatware.
It's fine if there is an Ethernet Connection to access some augmented feature on a disc, but I don't need Netflix or anything else on 3-5 different devices which don't have a screen as a permanent feature.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, and we have all had firmware updates that fixed or added one thing only to ruin something else. It needs to have everything you want out of the box. Any later improvements are just gravy. Smart apps, though convenient, are a bigger problem than gaming features. They aren't generally as good as those found in dedicated streaming devices and you run into ARC/eARC issues. At some point Netflix and others drop support for them as newer sets come out.
Firmware updates can be a hit and miss, as we all have found out the hard way, I guess. Sometimes there is no real way around some updates, like for security, but here then the problem is often too few updates if any at all.

I never used the "smart apps" in my old Panasonic Plasma and was using Chromecast for this, but the apps on my LG OLED CX works very well for watching Netflix, HBO, Amazon and Disney+ so I rarely use the Chromecast. Currently this is the only way I can watch UHD content, though, without upgrading to a newer Chromecast. With a Harmony remote the installed apps on the LG OLED is easy to use for all members of the family, easier than Chromcast in fact.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
For some, a single remote is essential as some family members want it as simple as you can get it. So, Smart apps are favored. Disc players are about the weakest option for streaming. Dedicated streamers will offer the most apps.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
For some, a single remote is essential as some family members want it as simple as you can get it. So, Smart apps are favored. Disc players are about the weakest option for streaming. Dedicated streamers will offer the most apps.
I want it as simple as possible as well with just one remote and the remote must have RF.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
^^ I don't mind it so much in the TV, but the BluRay players don't need apps, and frankly neither does my console. Perhaps if it was a simple click-to-add function as it's all software, much like other apps on my Sony TV were (Disney+, CBS All Access (yes I know that has changed), HBO Max, etc.). In that regard, it is no different from a new computer: add what you need/want, but forget the rest of the bloatware.
It's fine if there is an Ethernet Connection to access some augmented feature on a disc, but I don't need Netflix or anything else on 3-5 different devices which don't have a screen as a permanent feature.
Yep. I'm all for a box to do it's specific job and only that.

Is it convenient that one of my TV's has Android TV built in? Yes, especially since that's the platform I prefer for my streaming boxes, but I'm also aware that Sony could easily screw things up with an update. I'm fine with that simply because I can just add a streaming box behind the TV and never think about it again.

I actually would prefer a simple monitor for my TV, but since nobody wants that, they either cost more or don't exist.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I never used the "smart apps" in my old Panasonic Plasma and was using Chromecast for this, but the apps on my LG OLED CX works very well for watching Netflix, HBO, Amazon and Disney+ so I rarely use the Chromecast. Currently this is the only way I can watch UHD content, though, without upgrading to a newer Chromecast. With a Harmony remote the installed apps on the LG OLED is easy to use for all members of the family, easier than Chromcast in fact.
I used my Panasonic apps for a bit, but they got outdated and slow so quickly (little more than a year) that they quickly became useless. TV still works wonderfully. I bought extra Harmony remotes so I won't part with those. Same remote in every room. Same TV platform. Keeps it super simple for the wife and kids.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
That's my concern, the market will cater to what the gamer wants. I believe that will happen. In the case of LG OLED, I believe they're really chasing the market right now. Even though LG is the leader in OLED, they make all of the panels, yet their OLED displays are considered 3rd tier when it comes to picture quality, behind Panasonic and Sony. However, when comes to gaming, they are a clear number one.
When it comes to sales, I expect that they are also a clear number one. It isn't that they include gaming features which is what is hurting their image quality, it's the fact that they are LG and generally suck overall. I'm not at all a huge fan of LG. I think they underbuild their products and include a ton of add-on features, which are nice, while they have avoided the things which add actual image improvements to their design.

They are also marketing geniuses who know how to make a profit with the least amount of expenditure and deliver an image that is 95% of the quality of their competitors while having a price point which is far less, so they sell the crap out of what they have while the competitors are still left scratching their head about why they are getting their butts blown away.

The answer is simple - LG has it figured out, while Sony or Panasonic would talk to you and you would tell them to keep doing what they are doing, a marketing professional would tell them to use their existing excellence in processing, then spend some time and money investing into features which improve their market share, with a focus on driving down costs a bit.

Of course, if Sony ends up being the exact same product as LG, but at $500 more, then why would anyone buy the Sony? So, I guess they probably have to keep their models up a bit more in image quality to justify their somewhat ridiculous price points.

At the end of the day, if Sony or Panasonic were to add excellent gaming features, and even some ridiculous gaming features, to their TVs, it wouldn't take away one thing from their potential video excellence, and may open up their market more, increasing sales, and profitability. If they choose not to, it seems pretty stupid to me. Especially when they see that LG is definitely capitalizing on this.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
That's my concern, the market will cater to what the gamer wants. I believe that will happen. In the case of LG OLED, I believe they're really chasing the market right now. Even though LG is the leader in OLED, they make all of the panels, yet their OLED displays are considered 3rd tier when it comes to picture quality, behind Panasonic and Sony. However, when comes to gaming, they are a clear number one.
The market is the gamer, right? So, it's marketers who cater to gamers.
 
R

RedCharles

Full Audioholic
Good grief guys. Arguing about picture quality on oled TVs for 192 posts.

Hardcore Lanner here. Lans were awesome. Haven't Lanned in years though. I miss it, but the last few Lans were just an exercise in nostalgia. Lans are pretty much dead. Times change. It sucks. Bud Lindemann once said, "We're gonna miss what progress takes from us."

Smart phones, social media make us less human. I read stories all the time about how people are having less sex because they're on their damn phones. I miss the pre smart phone days when people had to be social. In the past few years a lot of people I know met their spouse online. I'm going to one such wedding on Saturday. It's a new twist on the concept of an arranged marriage. Whatever happened to the days of meeting a woman at a bar, striking up a conversation over a cigarette, and getting her phone number?

I was just thinking the other day that people in the 1800s didn't have much in the way of entertainment, but they probably had great friends, great relationships. They knew how to tell story. How to make joke. When to charge in, when to tread softly in conversation. You know everyone in the village and everyone knows you. Reputation. Security. Trust. Social media takes away from actual social skills. I find myself frittered away time on learning useless things or following cheap entertainment. What a poor use of my short life. And Life is, after all, a time management problem. But more on that later.

You can't have a home theater without a home. The push for multi-dwelling units over single family homes is a tectonic threat to home theater. Furthermore, homes are being built at half the rate they were in the early 2000s. There a lot of reasons for this, but supply remains tight. We may not be in a housing bubble. Demand has been exceeding supply for almost seven years now. People believe the next 2008 is around the corner. They believe home values will deflate. They may be wrong.

The middle class is generally not doing as well as it did pre-2008. Home theater is an extravagance. I would bet that the mid 2000s was a great time for home theater. But home prices are way up, and middle class life is increasingly hard to reach. There are many reasons for this.

And to top it off new movies are pretty much awful, humanless drivel. Out of all the new Star Wars movies, only Rogue One was good. The Marvel movies are mostly awful. Perhaps the well has gone dry. Call it the anxiety of influence. China money. Artists not being bored enough in an age of social media to create a human masterpiece. Or all of the above, but the fact is they don't make movies like Goodfellas anymore.

TV shows, streaming, is where all the money and talent are going. TV shows don't demand a home theater the way Star Wars or Lawrence of Arabia does. Who would go to a movie theater to watch an episode of the Crown? Don't get me wrong, that show was very well done. But it doesn't demand a theater or surround sound.

Which brings me to gaming and the future of home theater. At one time, Creative used to sell sound cards. They sold a ton of Sound blasters and audigys in the 90s and early 2000s. If you didn't have a sound card you were missing out and you knew it. By the mid 2000s Microsoft had had enough of crashes and compatibility problems and they got rid of EAX. Sound cards still exist, but they're a niche product now.

Atmos/DTSX could be the new EAX, but it's not being marketed well at all. Most games are mixed for 5.1. For pc gamers, pinnacle surround would be a Logitech Z906 which consists of bloated bass and tweeter less speakers. But it's the top choice because of the cost and learning curve.

What's missing from the industry is package, a kit, that just works. That's accessible to people who know nothing about audio but want Atmos surround.

And Home theater is a pain in the ass. Running cables. Getting all the equipment to talk to each other properly. Fun isn't supposed to be work. But setting up home theater is work. Which brings me back to the question of time management.

Kierkegaard once wrote an essay about how humans rotate their hedonistic pleasures the way a farmer rotates his crops. I prefer to think of as rotating my hobbies; rotating my learning, but life certainly has its seasons, and I'm not even the same person I was just four years ago. I enjoy work more now. I enjoy the challenge. I'm more patient. I'm less fun. Less alive. More adult. I don't even really speed anymore.

A Home theater requires time. It takes a lot research, effort, and most people just want to game or be entertained. The level of impatience in modern society is growing. The most predictive test in psychology that I know of is called the "cookie test". You can Google it and watch some cute videos of kids going crazy over a cookie. To say the least, the ability to delay gratification predicts success. And our new economy's whole purpose is instant gratification.

Also, practically speaking, speakers are incompatible with services like Discord because your microphone will feed your sound into their headset. For epic single player games like Skyrim or Witcher 3, a home theater, atmos adds a lot. But for twitch games like CSGO, it adds nothing.

I believe pc and console gaming is an untapped market for home theater, but they have to market it better, get the gaming studios on board with Atmos, and make a product that's easy to set up for newbs. Perhaps a modular product, but everything under one brand name, product line. Like a Sony Gaming Line that features TVs, receivers, subs, and speakers together in one product line.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I believe pc and console gaming is an untapped market for home theater, but they have to market it better, get the gaming studios on board with Atmos, and make a product that's easy to set up for newbs. Perhaps a modular product, but everything under one brand name, product line. Like a Sony Gaming Line that features TVs, receivers, subs, and speakers together in one product line.
Exactly!!!

The ability for manufacturers like Sony, Samsung, and LG to create products that just 'work' is already there. The number of people that want to use speaker bars is insane. The speaker bar with wireless rear channels and wireless subwoofer is super easy to setup already. The models can include Atmos functionality for those who want that ease of setup and Atmos. Plug it into the ARC connection on a matching TV and you are done.

Then taking that marketing to gamers directly as a way to enhance their gaming experience is how they tap into that market. If they need to add some RGB... WHO CARES? It's great for them to add that feature if it sells more product without impacting the quality of the product.

The key is getting people through the door. Getting this product onto the gamer's shelf in their home. To enhance the experience.

The problem, especially with audio, is that headsets are far more the standard. Some may like running a surround setup, but there are really good headsets out there for gamers to use that give them personalized surround sound. It allows them to game without the sound disrupting the entire home. It lets them game in their bedroom or office easily. If 90% of gamers use headsets, then that leaves a very small market for those who want speakers to market to. But, only by marketing to them will that segment grow, in terms of audio.

I think it starts by getting them to use a decent TV as their monitor instead of a simple gaming monitor.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
When it comes to sales, I expect that they are also a clear number one. It isn't that they include gaming features which is what is hurting their image quality, it's the fact that they are LG and generally suck overall. I'm not at all a huge fan of LG. I think they underbuild their products and include a ton of add-on features, which are nice, while they have avoided the things which add actual image improvements to their design.

They are also marketing geniuses who know how to make a profit with the least amount of expenditure and deliver an image that is 95% of the quality of their competitors while having a price point which is far less, so they sell the crap out of what they have while the competitors are still left scratching their head about why they are getting their butts blown away.

The answer is simple - LG has it figured out, while Sony or Panasonic would talk to you and you would tell them to keep doing what they are doing, a marketing professional would tell them to use their existing excellence in processing, then spend some time and money investing into features which improve their market share, with a focus on driving down costs a bit.

Of course, if Sony ends up being the exact same product as LG, but at $500 more, then why would anyone buy the Sony? So, I guess they probably have to keep their models up a bit more in image quality to justify their somewhat ridiculous price points.

At the end of the day, if Sony or Panasonic were to add excellent gaming features, and even some ridiculous gaming features, to their TVs, it wouldn't take away one thing from their potential video excellence, and may open up their market more, increasing sales, and profitability. If they choose not to, it seems pretty stupid to me. Especially when they see that LG is definitely capitalizing on this.
Again, exactly my point! You're privy to a lot more than most and are able offer better insight so I much appreciate this post. It is exactly what I've been saying from the start, only with less data.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Then taking that marketing to gamers directly as a way to enhance their gaming experience is how they tap into that market. If they need to add some RGB... WHO CARES? It's great for them to add that feature if it sells more product without impacting the quality of the product.
To change the subject to outside of AV the RGB bling-bling-pimpled-teeanger-in-moms-basement-that-never-grew-up craze comes at the expense of other functionality, like, say, better firmware for controlling fans on a motherboard without having to resort to installing vendor crap software.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
To change the subject to outside of AV the RGB bling-bling-pimpled-teeanger-in-moms-basement-that-never-grew-up craze comes at the expense of other functionality, like, say, better firmware for controlling fans on a motherboard without having to resort to installing vendor crap software.
From what I can tell, RGB is one of those wild west places right now. There are a few standards, and beyond that, so much of it is total garbage. There are really nice, fairly inexpensive RGB strips, and they do follow a standard in wiring, but control of them is all over the place. Getting stand alone controllers is a mystic art that requires souls to be traded to understand what is going on. So, while the gaming community may enjoy it, and they have every right to do so, the industry as a whole has made it darn near impossible to just get a RGB controller, plug in RGB lighting, then run a RGB program which will control everything in a nice a sophisticated manner.

Oh, and this should extend to room lighting with LED strips, and more which has the exact same f'n issue. Try to figure out how to get fifty RGB LED strips to work together in your basement for custom lighting without dropping thousands on a controller or some very specialized program... it's insanely difficult. For no reason.

If I was more innovative I would have a RGB controller made which interfaced nicely with a phone, allowed multiple units to sync together, allowed for relay, IR, RS232, and Ethernet control, and didn't cost hundreds of dollars, so you could put them all over your home and create lighting RGB scenes with standard RGB LED lighting easily. Maybe in a different lifetime. Maybe I'll just make my son invent the darn thing. :D
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
From what I can tell, RGB is one of those wild west places right now. There are a few standards, and beyond that, so much of it is total garbage. There are really nice, fairly inexpensive RGB strips, and they do follow a standard in wiring, but control of them is all over the place. Getting stand alone controllers is a mystic art that requires souls to be traded to understand what is going on. So, while the gaming community may enjoy it, and they have every right to do so, the industry as a whole has made it darn near impossible to just get a RGB controller, plug in RGB lighting, then run a RGB program which will control everything in a nice a sophisticated manner.

Oh, and this should extend to room lighting with LED strips, and more which has the exact same f'n issue. Try to figure out how to get fifty RGB LED strips to work together in your basement for custom lighting without dropping thousands on a controller or some very specialized program... it's insanely difficult. For no reason.

If I was more innovative I would have a RGB controller made which interfaced nicely with a phone, allowed multiple units to sync together, allowed for relay, IR, RS232, and Ethernet control, and didn't cost hundreds of dollars, so you could put them all over your home and create lighting RGB scenes with standard RGB LED lighting easily. Maybe in a different lifetime. Maybe I'll just make my son invent the darn thing. :D
Just like a lot of other home automation/smart home products, the lack of standardization makes everything more difficult.

I know you have a way more robust home automation setup than any of us, but one reason why I like Home Assistant is that their list of products/devices and such is so robust. Makes all this crap a lot easier to manage, but that's a different conversation. Plus, I can manage things all on my own without being a dealer/installer. Pretty cool.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
LG Display makes the panels. LG Electronics buys its panels from them like everybody else. Samsung reportedly going to buy millions of panels from them soon as well. They were holding out but LCD costs are up and lots of cheap competition. Was leaning toward Sony, but not buying any more products promising features via future firmware update. Though no longer new and not quite perfect in every way, the LG CX has the best feature set for the money and a picture nobody can call bad.
Samsung will not be getting into the OLED market. They're going full steam ahead with Micro-LED.
 
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